The News Thread

[Dak]

Fuck that answer. Seriously, I'm as surprised as Jimmy. I would whine in the dirt with my hand out before joining the military.

Easy to say that coming from an upper middle class background/having the time to educate oneself to an ideology that posits the military as a generally bad thing. I already agreed that it isn't optimal, but it is a viable (existing, practical) option in terms of escaping low SES cycles, and people from those cycles/areas usually don't have any sort deep philosophical aversion to military "service".

And you were born with easier access; you're white. I know you don't like believing this, but it's true. Statistically, you had it much easier.

Not how it works. Whites may have it statistically easier as a group, but that doesn't mean that all whites have it easier than all blacks. Incidentally, that mistake in understanding statistics is something Land has harped on before. To reverse the situation: Statistically, blacks have it easier getting onto the defensive line of an NFL team (Blacks make up the majority to overwhelming majority of every position except QB/C/G/K/P/TE, and K/P barely count, and G is a tie.). 197 to 26 based off some unofficial numbers I found. But that doesn't mean that any random black person would have had an easier time getting onto an NFL defensive line than JJ Watt does/did.

It does follow. Sometimes stealing is the only available option. I don't see how you can't see that.

In some scenario it's certainly a possibility that a person could be forced to steal to eat. But in the land of practically infinite government food assistance, housing vouchers, general welfare, educational assistance, private charities/food banks/homeless shelters, etc., it is a hard case to make that this is some sort of necessary systemic condition. Food banks often have to toss food that goes bad because it goes unclaimed, and I've heard stories from food bank workers/volunteers when I was in AZ of people coming through and turning their noses up at anything that wasn't pre-packaged/processed. Doesn't justify stealing microwave dinners and Mountain Dew, or boxes of Nike Shoes.

 

[Einherjar86]

Easy to say that coming from an upper middle class background/having the time to educate oneself to an ideology that posits the military as a generally bad thing. I already agreed that it isn't optimal, but it is a viable (existing, practical) option in terms of escaping low SES cycles, and people from those cycles/areas usually don't have any sort deep philosophical aversion to military "service".

You're very presumptuous sometimes.

My grandfathers were both in the military, as was my uncle. I grew up indoctrinated into the belief that the military was a good thing and that our soldiers are heroes. My family contributes to the Wounded Warrior Project. It has been immensely difficult for me to arrive at my current position on it, in fact.

Not how it works. Whites may have it statistically easier as a group, but that doesn't mean that all whites have it easier than all blacks. Incidentally, that mistake in understanding statistics is something Land has harped on before. To reverse the situation: Statistically, blacks have it easier getting onto the defensive line of an NFL team (Blacks make up the majority to overwhelming majority of every position except QB/C/G/K/P/TE, and K/P barely count, and G is a tie.). 197 to 26 based off some unofficial numbers I found. But that doesn't mean that any random black person would have had an easier time getting onto an NFL defensive line than JJ Watt does/did.

It isn't a misunderstanding. It's a different perspective on what those statistics mean.

You and I have radically different positions on how this works, and it fascinates me that you cannot discern the racism operative in our culture today. But I'm not going to continue arguing with you about it because I know it's fruitless.

And at any rate, if this continues to grow it should probably move to the other thread, since it has clearly gone beyond Ferguson at this point.

 

[Mort Divine]

Finally, through all of the stupid bullshit that you have posted I read "individual racism is not really the pertinent issue still causing non-whites to suffer still to this day" and I understand and agree with what you're saying.

You couldn't have just said that?

Instead you went with the "Only white people can be racist" and "I want to change the definition of a word because I think differently" approach?

It isn't so much that I want to change the definition, I just want a functional definition that allows for proper discussion of the problem at hand and so when I speak on racism it is structural/institutional that I discuss.

 

[Dak]

You're very presumptuous sometimes.

My grandfathers were both in the military, as was my uncle. I grew up indoctrinated into the belief that the military was a good thing and that our soldiers are heroes. My family contributes to the Wounded Warrior Project. It has been immensely difficult for me to arrive at my current position on it, in fact.

I'm not saying it wasn't difficult to adjust perspective. I'm saying you had the possibility of doing so thanks to an affluent background relative to many of those who go into the military as an escape route. You know how I was able to adjust my perspective on the military? By experiencing it first hand, and having them pay me to sit in my office (in later stages), or in my barracks room in my "free time", and read. Not when I was in a financially perilous situation and wondering how I was going to make ends meet.

My wife and her siblings all went into the military to escape a background of domestic abuse, racism, and poverty, not because of patriotism or against any sort of ideology other than self-preservation.

Offtopic, I think that programs like the WWP are a good thing, I donate also.

It isn't a misunderstanding. It's a different perspective on what those statistics mean.

You and I have radically different positions on how this works, and it fascinates me that you cannot discern the racism operative in our culture today. But I'm not going to continue arguing with you about it because I know it's fruitless.

Just because I don't accept the non-solution of whining, rioting, and ever more handouts that gets carted out by Mort et al, doesn't mean I don't recognize systemic racism. What I don't accept is that it cannot be overcome by taking ownership and positive action as opposed to rioting and and whining.

 

[rms]

Fuck that answer. Seriously, I'm as surprised as Jimmy. I would whine in the dirt with my hand out before joining the military.

It's amazing that you would rather be the victim of poverty instead joining the military. But you never have or never will be there, so I can't take this opinion seriously. The opportunity to join the military has seriously impacted my life in ways that I could never imagine. It's probably the only thing in America that resembles the "American Dream".

 

[Einherjar86]

That the military resembles the American Dream has to be a joke.

I'm not saying it wasn't difficult to adjust perspective. I'm saying you had the possibility of doing so thanks to an affluent background relative to many of those who go into the military as an escape route. You know how I was able to adjust my perspective on the military? By experiencing it first hand, and having them pay me to sit in my office (in later stages), or in my barracks room in my "free time", and read. Not when I was in a financially perilous situation and wondering how I was going to make ends meet.

My wife and her siblings all went into the military to escape a background of domestic abuse, racism, and poverty, not because of patriotism or against any sort of ideology other than self-preservation.

Offtopic, I think that programs like the WWP are a good thing, I donate also.

Just because I don't accept the non-solution of whining, rioting, and ever more handouts that gets carted out by Mort et al, doesn't mean I don't recognize systemic racism. What I don't accept is that it cannot be overcome by taking ownership and positive action as opposed to rioting and and whining.

The solutions to all your problems aren't located within, as though the individual is some wellspring of possibility. You can do a lot; but you can't do everything, and sometimes individual action is not enough.

Also, just because you bit the bullet and joined the military doesn't mean those in similar situations should have to. I'm sorry, but there's no way that individual choice can solve every problem. That's just a fantasy.

 

[Dak]

That the military resembles the American Dream has to be a joke.

Can certainly agree on that.

The solutions to all your problems aren't located within, as though the individual is some wellspring of possibility. You can do a lot; but you can't do everything, and sometimes individual action is not enough.

Also, just because you bit the bullet and joined the military doesn't mean those in similar situations should have to. I'm sorry, but there's no way that individual choice can solve every problem. That's just a fantasy.

I didn't say it can all be done "on your own", but for a group to take action requires individuals taking action. I cannot clean up my entire neighborhood, but I can at the bare minimum not assist in continuing to fuck it up. If I can get many others to also do the same, voila, we already have progress.

I can't solve all my problems by myself, but I can't solve anything doing nothing.

Bringing this back around to Ferguson: Rioting in no way, shape, or form helps anyone, honors anyone, etc.

 

[rms]

How? It excludes poverty and other factors as long as you qualify medically and legally and gives you the cheapest loan possible for a house, medical disability coverage for life, free college tuition and preference on any state and federal employment. What other possibility does that for an 18 year old?

Can I also mention you become a citizen of the United States with, I think, 2 years of service? I mean what is seriously closer to the fantastical image of the American Dream?

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Hey poor people, go kill brown poor people, because you know benefits!

 

[Einherjar86]

I can't solve all my problems by myself, but I can't solve anything doing nothing.

Bringing this back around to Ferguson: Rioting in no way, shape, or form helps anyone, honors anyone, etc.

Stealing isn't doing nothing...

Also, riots are the rhyme of the unheard. There isn't supposed to be any honor or logic to it.

I'm not condoning it, by the way; I'm just contesting what others have been saying about rioting.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

It's in honor to Brown. Looking at his actions and character I think he would have wanted it that way

 

[Einherjar86]

How? It excludes poverty and other factors as long as you qualify medically and legally and gives you the cheapest loan possible for a house, medical disability coverage for life, free college tuition and preference on any state and federal employment. What other possibility does that for an 18 year old?

Can I also mention you become a citizen of the United States with, I think, 2 years of service? I mean what is seriously closer to the fantastical image of the American Dream?

The material and psychological demands of the military precludes any similarity to the American Dream, in my opinion. The American Dream involves a premise of opportunity without excessive sacrifice - that an individual can find the land and the time, without any contribution from others or from the government, and build something original.

It's a fantasy, of course; but the military doesn't provide anything close to this, in my opinion.

EDIT: I'm also going to leave this here...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/16/ferguson-protesters-guard-stores_n_5684042.html

A peaceful protest on Friday night turned into another confrontation with police after some in the crowd reportedly threw rocks and people began looting stores, including the convenience store that Brown was accused of robbing. Police formed lines and fired tear gas to disperse the crowd.

In the midst of it all, protesters took it upon themselves to guard stores against looting.

 

[Dak]

Looks like some protestors looted and some didn't/tried to stop it. Of course we might say that looting isn't a form of protest, and therefore looters weren't protestors by definition.

 

[Tonka Time]

It isn't so much that I want to change the definition, I just want a functional definition that allows for proper discussion of the problem at hand and so when I speak on racism it is structural/institutional that I discuss.

Fair enough. I am happy that you eventually made the distinction between individual and structural/institutional racism because to be quite honest it's something that has never crossed my mind and I do believe that it would be beneficial if more people focused on the structural/institutional aspect of it. So until there is a "functional" definition of the word I feel it would be best to always make that distinction so that others better understand where you're coming from.

 

[rms]

Hey poor people, go kill brown poor people, because you know benefits!

I would bet maybe 10% of the military force is combat arms or done combat activities. Do you know how massive the Air Force and Navy are?

The material and psychological demands of the military precludes any similarity to the American Dream, in my opinion. The American Dream involves a premise of opportunity without excessive sacrifice - that an individual can find the land and the time, without any contribution from others or from the government, and build something original.

It's a fantasy, of course; but the military doesn't provide anything close to this, in my opinion.

I do not know what you mean by material requirements, but psychologically sure, for a small percentage of veterans (of foreign wars). If you make your definition that specific then its basically unachieveable. But being able to rise up by a sacrifice for a much better life, to me, is a 'dream.'

EDIT: I'm also going to leave this here...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/16/ferguson-protesters-guard-stores_n_5684042.html

The shame is that this story is going to run like crazy and all the pictures I saw featured the same 10-15 people. Anyone who thinks everyone is looting or everyone is protecting is silly, anyways.

 

[Dak]

rms is right about this to a degree. The majority of the military is doing mundane things. I mostly sat in an office of some sort, except when I deployed. My wife managed maintenance records, my brother in law rolled munitions around and my sister in law is going to play in a military band. For the vast majority, I have no clue what material demands are imagined, and the psychological demand is fairly low and getting lower outside of combat and combat-related training.

However, living off a government paycheck is not in any part of the mythical American Dream. It is however, part of the American Reality for many if not most, and that includes myself.

 

[rms]

This is part of Darren Wilson's interview, I think the whole thing is 13 minutes. The fact that he thinks he could not have done anything differently or feel remorseful about killing someone is pretty bad, personally.

However, living off a government paycheck is not in any part of the mythical American Dream. It is however, part of the American Reality for many if not most, and that includes myself.

I think there is a difference in being compensated for medical damages vs. milking the system for money, if this is what you mean?

 

[Matt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFXtZGyWVp8

This is part of Darren Wilson's interview, I think the whole thing is 13 minutes. The fact that he thinks he could not have done anything differently or feel remorseful about killing someone is pretty bad, personally.

Agreed. Even if the killing was totally justified you'd think he'd at least have some kind of remorse over it.

I think there is a difference in being compensated for medical damages vs. milking the system for money, if this is what you mean?

Being paid for services rendered doesn't fit into the category of the (relatively small number of) leaches.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Ugh, these past few pages. To reiterate, when people talk about racism, it's a matter of socioeconomics. Whether some black people hate white people or white people hate black people is honestly not all that relevant to the way society functions. What is relevant is that slavery, redlining, and employment discrimination in the past two centuries have forced blacks to climb a out in a way that almost always requires special talents in the arts or athletics. Too many people say "blah blah bootstraps blah blah" because they didn't have the same obstacles.

I live in a diverse city, but live in a white/hispanic neighborhood. I do frequently hear black people talk about their lives on my commute. It sucks for them. I heard a lot of very honest discussions about Ferguson this week. It's really painful to listen to, and I empathize a lot. If I was black I would almost certainly be dead or in jail.

On a side note, the "American Dream" has been complete bullshit since about the 1920s, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just dumb. Just because some people win the lottery doesn't mean this is a fair and just game.

 

[Funerary_Doom]

^That.


the last few pages of this thread is a lot of :/

And in regards to the looting -- everyone steals. It's not a race thing. Have you never heard of Wall Street and what happens there? I really can't believe people think of racism in such inconsequential terms. If it were so insignificant and just about a few people name-calling once in awhile, then I'd see more Stop and Frisk cops camped out with tables on Wall Street (lower Manhattan/financial district where a ton of illegal shit happens there including drug usage...) then I do in places like the Bronx (where, might i add, there are lines of people's bags being searched).

Furthermore, in order for nonviolent protests to work, the other side must have some conscience. The fact that Derren Wilson has none is alarming to me. Maybe he needs to not have one for his own sanity and peace of mind, but still… doesn't make it any less fucked up.