The News Thread

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Maybe so, but no one is asking why a young black teenager felt the need to assault a police officer; he must have either been stupid, or insane, or high on drugs.

Well why did he rob a store and muscle the shop owner?

Most of what you said about the media is sound and hard to argue so I'll just shut up.

I will say going over this with my brother we coundnt help but put ourselves in the situation and think why don't these guys use tasers, stun guns, pepper spray etc? Guy comes charging at me unarmed and I have a weapon like that I think I'd be fine. idk

 

[Einherjar86]

^That's another excellent question.

There are never any "clean slates", and standing around either complaining about it or reinforcing any given stereotype is only going to perpetuate that disadvantage. Taking ownership is the only real solution, how "fair" it is doesn't even enter into any serious conversation.

There are no clean slates, but there are different slates; and certain slates group together in a certain way due to historical conditions and expectations.

It's a brute fact that you, and many like you (i.e. white men), were born with an easier access to the means of financial success/comfort than the majority of black individuals in this country. You also assume that "taking ownership" is some grand universal of human behavior; and perhaps it could be. But "taking ownership" is not always an available option, especially when doing so means accepting institutional poverty and, perhaps, illness or death.

You would basically ask us to leave behind the material effects of an institution as devastating as slavery and leave everyone to their own devices; things will work out better this way. That may be so, but this invites an inevitable and undesirable situation: that the majority of the black population will either perish, or (more likely) will suffer annihilation at the hands of martial law. So yes, things certainly might work out better - for white people.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Not to mention the extreme collective peer pressure in the black community, especially amongst young black men.

 

[Mort Divine]

This.

Also, any comment that has "White people do/don't..." or "Black people do/don't..." is racist.
If people claim to want racism to end then they should stop lumping all people of any color into a group and look at people as individuals.
People of all races experience racism.

As for the Ferguson case, a kid decided to attack an officer and an officer decided to use lethal force(If you're questioning this then you must have access to evidence that the court didn't. No the justice system isn't perfect, quite the opposite, but believing that the entire system is out to get people of different color is false especially when the justice system isn't made up of one race). The kid is dead and the officer's life is ruined.

Sort of. Racism necessitates power - something that racial minorities do not possess by and large in this country.

So you'd be better off saying people of all non-white races experience racism.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Obviously this dude shouldn't have attacked a police officer, real idiot move. But I see a lot of people trying to rationalize his death because of the crimes he committed. I'm sorry but theft, unarmed aggravated assault, and being under the influence, none of these crimes are punishable by death. This cop was judge jury and executioner when physical but not deadly force could have settled this scenario.

As far as the rioters, they need to prosecute every last one of them who looted and burned buildings, they're all caught on camera. They should serve jail time and collectively have to pay for the damages.. but I doubt this will happen.

Well said!

------------------------

Racism here is indeed blown out of proportion, especially by the media. If anything, African-americans are by far the most racist ethnic group around, maybe you guys would have realized that if you stepped outside of your little white suburbs and stopped listening to everything television and these stupid libtards feed you guys. And what happened with Micheal Brown was truly fucked up, but anyone that thinks he would have been alive today if he was white is out of their minds.

I swear, reading through most of this page has showed me how separated from reality some of you guys are..

 

[Tonka Time]

But "taking ownership" is not always an available option, especially when doing so means accepting institutional poverty and, perhaps, illness or death.

You lost me here, please elaborate. When is having integrity something that isn't available and will make you poor and sick?

unless I misunderstood NoumeGnon.

 

[Tonka Time]

Sort of. Racism necessitates power - something that racial minorities do not possess by and large in this country.

So you'd be better off saying people of all non-white races experience racism.

So it's not racism when someone yells "White-bread" as I walk through a black community? So it was not racism when my girlfriend was called a "cracker ho" among other things while working at a gas station in a mostly black community? So it's not racism when someone of a different race accuses me of racism just because they don't get what they want???

 

[Mort Divine]

So it's not racism when someone yells "White-bread" as I walk through a black community? So it was not racism when my girlfriend was called a "cracker ho" among other things while working at a gas station in a mostly black community? So it's not racism when someone of a different race accuses me of racism just because they don't get what they want???

No it isn't.

 

[Einherjar86]

I mean that "integrity," or "taking ownership," as we're speaking of it here entails not stealing someone else's bread when you and your family are starving. Integrity would mean working for a paycheck to buy that bread.

But sometimes the situating is more pressing. Sometimes a starving relative doesn't have the time to wait for a paycheck to clear.

My point is simply that the values of survival do not always coincide with the values of integrity and hard work, and that when this happens we have a responsibility - not to justify theft or say that it's okay to steal, but to admit that there is something beyond mere individual behavior and values that causes these problems. Sometimes "taking ownership" simply doesn't cut it.

 

[Tonka Time]

No it isn't.

Please explain...

I mean that "integrity," or "taking ownership," as we're speaking of it here entails not stealing someone else's bread when you and your family are starving. Integrity would mean working for a paycheck to buy that bread.

But sometimes the situating is more pressing. Sometimes a starving relative doesn't have the time to wait for a paycheck to clear.

My point is simply that the values of survival do not always coincide with the values of integrity and hard work, and that when this happens we have a responsibility - not to justify theft or say that it's okay to steal, but to admit that there is something beyond mere individual behavior and values that causes these problems. Sometimes "taking ownership" simply doesn't cut it.

So there aren't programs that have been set up to feed the starving?
I get what you're saying though and I feel this is getting into another topic: The fucked up economy.

 

[Mort Divine]

Please explain...

Racism necessitates power. At an institutional level, whites hold the vast majority of political, economic and social power in this country. It is because of this - this uneven share of the pie so to speak - that these problems continue disproportionately for blacks, latinos, etc. vs. whites.

Yeah, those things might be born out of racial hate/prejudice, and I'm not going to lend support to them specifically for it - but it is not racism.

We need a working definition of racism to understand its effects. Defining it as "one race attacking another/feeling superior/etc." does not allow for that. We need to throw that out the window.

 

[Dak]

It's a brute fact that you, and many like you (i.e. white men), were born with an easier access to the means of financial success/comfort than the majority of black individuals in this country.

Many white men might, but I certainly didn't. Probably affects my perspective. But there is one point of access that is pretty equally available to pull ones-self out of abject poverty and the poverty cycle and that is joining the military. I had to take that route, and my wife/her siblings had to take that route. It certainly isn't "optimal", and there's plenty of room for discussion about perverse systemic incentives and so on, but it beats whining in the dirt with your hand out, and doesn't involve the one-in-a-million shot that going the sports route does.

Again, the biggest problem for blacks (I won't even say minorities, because blaming racism (as opposed to taking action) for their problems doesn't seem to be the MO for other groups. I'm not saying that it can't be acknowledged, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse to not even try to better oneself, or gripe when one gets into trouble for stuff they shouldn't be doing anyway - especially knowing you have less wiggle room (rightly or not).

You also assume that "taking ownership" is some grand universal of human behavior; and perhaps it could be. But "taking ownership" is not always an available option, especially when doing so means accepting institutional poverty and, perhaps, illness or death.

You would basically ask us to leave behind the material effects of an institution as devastating as slavery and leave everyone to their own devices; things will work out better this way. That may be so, but this invites an inevitable and undesirable situation: that the majority of the black population will either perish, or (more likely) will suffer annihilation at the hands of martial law. So yes, things certainly might work out better - for white people.

I don't think this follows at all. I'm putting forward the necessity of positive action in the face of difficulty, rather than reacting in a negative and/or self-defeating way. Stop walking in the middle of the street, stop "shitting where you eat", take advantage of the educational help out there, and start building instead of tearing down. This isn't black specific advice, this applies across the board. That it is harder for blacks in general isn't in question, but that it can be done is also not in question, where you seem to suggest that it is.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Semantics, Mort. And you can play with language all you want. Bottom line Mort if you and I walked through East New York on a Friday night at 3am we could easily be victims of a nice beating simply because we're white. It is racism.

You guys are arguing Institutional racism vs Individual racism. It's all racism.

 

[Tonka Time]

Racism necessitates power. At an institutional level, whites hold the vast majority of political, economic and social power in this country. It is because of this - this uneven share of the pie so to speak - that these problems continue disproportionately for blacks, latinos, etc. vs. whites.

Yeah, those things might be born out of racial hate/prejudice, and I'm not going to lend support to them specifically for it - but it is not racism.

We need a working definition of racism to understand its effects. Defining it as "one race attacking another/feeling superior/etc." does not allow for that. We need to throw that out the window.

So essentially "What racism means isn't what racism really means so we need to re-write the meaning of racism"? all because of your opinion?

You don't see in any way how that is a flawed way of thinking?

 

[Einherjar86]

So there aren't programs that have been set up to feed the starving?
I get what you're saying though and I feel this is getting into another topic: The fucked up economy.

There are programs set up to feed the starving; they barely work, or rather they work just enough to hold the flood at bay (figuratively speaking).

It is an economic issue; but reducing it to economics tends to elide the fact that a large majority of blacks suffer economic marginalization because of very specific historical conditions: i.e. slavery. Slaves were instruments of economic success; they were literally commodities. They were not allowed to own property, and they were not allowed to earn money (or, if their masters did give them an allowance, it was minimal). They were not considered human beings, nor were they political subjects.

Imagine an entire group of people released from forced bondage, in which they could own nothing and had almost no money to buy anything with, and told they could now enter the world of the market. This is not a recipe for success.

 

[Mort Divine]

Semantics, Mort. And you can play with language all you want. Bottom line Mort if you and I walked through East New York on a Friday night at 3am we could easily be victims of a nice beating simply because we're white. It is racism.

You guys are arguing Institutional racism vs Individual racism. It's all racism.

Maybe so, but individual racism is not really the pertinent issue still causing non-whites to suffer still to this day. Institutional racism is the real evil and when people whine about "oh well a black guy once said something mean about me" and them having hurt feelings because of racism its a fucking joke.

 

[Tonka Time]

Maybe so, but individual racism is not really the pertinent issue still causing non-whites to suffer still to this day. Institutional racism is the real evil and when people whine about "oh well a black guy once said something mean about me" and them having hurt feelings because of racism its a fucking joke.

Finally, through all of the stupid bullshit that you have posted I read "individual racism is not really the pertinent issue still causing non-whites to suffer still to this day" and I understand and agree with what you're saying.

You couldn't have just said that?

Instead you went with the "Only white people can be racist" and "I want to change the definition of a word because I think differently" approach?

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Absolutely Mort, I even think Tonka would agree with that, but you can't say white people can't be victims of racism

haha, yes Mort likes to muddy up the water.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

But there is one point of access that is pretty equally available to pull ones-self out of abject poverty and the poverty cycle and that is joining the military.

Wow, I actually can't believe you'd suggest this.

 

[Einherjar86]

Many white men might, but I certainly didn't. Probably affects my perspective. But there is one point of access that is pretty equally available to pull ones-self out of abject poverty and the poverty cycle and that is joining the military. I had to take that route, and my wife/her siblings had to take that route. It certainly isn't "optimal", and there's plenty of room for discussion about perverse systemic incentives and so on, but it beats whining in the dirt with your hand out, and doesn't involve the one-in-a-million shot that going the sports route does.

Fuck that answer. Seriously, I'm as surprised as Jimmy. I would whine in the dirt with my hand out before joining the military.

And you were born with easier access; you're white. I know you don't like believing this, but it's true. Statistically, you had it much easier.

I don't think this follows at all. I'm putting forward the necessity of positive action in the face of difficulty, rather than reacting in a negative and/or self-defeating way. Stop walking in the middle of the street, stop "shitting where you eat", take advantage of the educational help out there, and start building instead of tearing down. This isn't black specific advice, this applies across the board. That it is harder for blacks in general isn't in question, but that it can be done is also not in question, where you seem to suggest that it is.

It does follow. Sometimes stealing is the only available option. I don't see how you can't see that.