The SOPA Soap Opera

[Mr.Sister]

I love you and want to have your babies. I've always believed music should be more of a hobby and that "successful musician" would mean you don't need to have a regular job...not that you can buy Ferraris and private jets and a house in the hamptons with a summer house in Tuscany.

I totally disagree. You're right: being a successfull musician doesn't mean, that you're buying 15 Ferarris every month, but to be able to make a living out of your music and to be able to do nothing but making music. And there's music that can't be made as a hobby, you have to put all your time and all your sweat into it. But: even that is impossible with internet piracy. Though the internet allows small artist to promote themself so easily, the money factor effects them AS WELL as big groups!!! It's nearly impossible to make money and start a career as a performing musician today, since there is NO MONEY left in the industry, except you're already famous anyway. The big companies have no reasons at all to trust a small, unknown group/musician, since there's no hope for money.

And my Opinion to the actually thread theme: Fighting internet piracy? YES! Sopa? Wrong way.

 

[refraction]

I never said Switzerland didn't have any sway in geopolitics, it's just that what Switzerland says would be largely ignored by just about everyone due to their neutrality. You wanted the UN to be in charge of eradicating child pornography, right? That right there tells me you don't know DICK about the real world, like most of your fellow citizens. The UN is about as useless as a screen door on a submarine, and is only used as a PR tool. You would know that if you lived in the real world. Switzerland is to geopolitics what Catholicism is to atheists.

Of course you'd think it's the biggest load of bullshit you've ever heard; you live in Switzerland. You look at the world from a neutral bubble, safely sitting right on top of the fence. You see nothing wrong with standing on the sidelines and pointing the finger at everyone else while not doing a thing to help or get involved with either party. But it's a necessary evil because the world needs Switzerland specifically for that purpose. However, when speaking about geopolitics, you shouldn't point the finger and chastise anyone if you don't stand for anything. Just STFU. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on the topic, but you will STFU about it. You can take a side, you can stay quiet, or you can GTFO. You telling other people in other countries what's wrong with them and their country, and MORE IMPORTANTLY WHAT THEY SHOULD DO, even if you're right, is insulting when you live in a country completely immune from the rest of the world.

I'm not arguing with you; in fact, I agree with everything you said. But my saying the same thing carries a bit more weight than you since I live in the real world. Also, here's a hint: many Swiss people do the same thing you're doing, and that's why they piss everyone off in Europe. They point the finger and criticize everyone else while living safely in their bubble, completely immune to any ill effects of the rest of the world. Knock that shit off.

Oh, and by the way, tell the rest of the Swiss to slow the fuck down on our autostrada. We understand that you're excited that you're able to drive faster than 70 km/h for once, but don't overdo it. Italians drive 150/160 km/h on the autostrada because they know how to drive and regularly do. You, on the other hand, don't. Knock that shit off and stop causing accidents because you don't know how to drive. It's not an amusement park.

BTW, I'm American too. I just live here. You being American "by birth" (which to me means you haven't lived in the US in a long time, possibly ever) doesn't even enter into the argument.

Taking a stand on an issue doesn't mean giving your opinion on it while sitting on the fence. You wouldn't even be interested in SOPA if it didn't affect you, and the only reason it would affect you would be because you wouldn't be able to download what you wanted. You don't care about individual freedoms of Americans...you just don't want the internet to change FOR YOU IN SWITZERLAND. That is why your opinion means exactly shit to the rest of the world.

Before you get mad, remember you opened this can of worms by criticizing everyone else while sitting in your ivory tower. A citizen of a country more socialist than Sweden and conservative as well (who even banned metal bands from playing because they were "satanic") is gonna point the finger at the US and talk about how un-free it is? Are you serious? I mean, I'm not really against socialism...I think the US could use more socialism, actually...but to hear you chastising the US about limiting personal freedoms when you live in Switzerland made me LOL really hard.

Ok clearly you dont have a clue what it means to be a neutral country. And yes, I have lived in america for several years and still follow american politics more closesly than my relatives who actually live in america.
And where the hell did you get the idea that switzerland is isolated from the rest of the world? Our economy is completely tied to the rest of the eu. Saying that a neutral country is isolated is total bs.

Before you get mad, remember you opened this can of worms by criticizing everyone else while sitting in your ivory tower. A citizen of a country more socialist than Sweden and conservative as well (who even banned metal bands from playing because they were "satanic"

Where did you read that lol? Ive been to several "satanic" concerts here, pentagrams, burning crosses and everything.
And why are you getting so mad at me (and for some reason Switzerland as a whole) for getting involved in a matter that affects me directly? We are a part of this world and have just as much a right to put in our citizens have just as much a right to put in their 2 cents as those of any other country.
And yes, I truly believe that its a good thing to get input from a party who is uninvolved in a matter and has nothing to gain or lose from the outcome, provided they are fully informed on the matter. But saying that I understand nothing about politics because I happen to live in a neutral country is simply idiotic.

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

About the music as a hobby thing, I want to emphasize again how cheap it is to get good sound quality these days. replicated really nailed it. I don't care if it's Vortex, whoever. They should all have to work like the rest of us. If they truly love making music, they'll find a way to put it out with relative ease.

 

[Mr.Sister]

About the music as a hobby thing, I want to emphasize again how cheap it is to get good sound quality these days. replicated really nailed it. I don't care if it's Vortex, whoever. They should all have to work like the rest of us. If they truly love making music, they'll find a way to put it out with relative ease.

It's not about putting it out, but about creating it in the first place.

 

[Dead Winter]

I totally disagree. You're right: being a successfull musician doesn't mean, that you're buying 15 Ferarris every month, but to be able to make a living out of your music and to be able to do nothing but making music. And there's music that can't be made as a hobby, you have to put all your time and all your sweat into it. But: even that is impossible with internet piracy. Though the internet allows small artist to promote themself so easily, the money factor effects them AS WELL as big groups!!! It's nearly impossible to make money and start a career as a performing musician today, since there is NO MONEY left in the industry, except you're already famous anyway. The big companies have no reasons at all to trust a small, unknown group/musician, since there's no hope for money.

And my Opinion to the actually thread theme: Fighting internet piracy? YES! Sopa? Wrong way.

I don't think you get what I'm saying. Small artists have always struggled. Teh innanet didn't invent the struggling musician. If anything, the internet has helped small artists. However, too many people want a "career" in music simply because they want it. They say, "I put this music out but everyone's downloading it, so that must mean that I'm great and if it weren't for the internet, I would be rich right now!" That's complete horseshit. People don't buy mediocre things they can get for free; they DO buy great things, however, even if there is the option to get it for free.

The music industry is in the shitter because they are no longer able to churn out complete and utter tripe to the masses on a staggering scale. Now they churn out complete and utter tripe on a much smaller scale. Great artists will always make a lot of money in the music industry if they're truly great. The music industry is simply pissed because they can't sell bullshit nobody wants anymore. This is nothing new; it started in the early 90's.

This is just my opinion, but artists who make more than 50k per year with only their music sales need to just be happy with what they have. With that kind of money they're able to live a nice, comfortable life; anything else is just greed. They have nothing to complain about because they're doing what they love to do and getting paid well for it. If they want to be rich, they should've become a plastic surgeon or a stock broker or a high profile lawyer. Just because you paint a picture and try to sell it doesn't mean it's good enough to sell in the first place, at least not at 20 bucks a pop.

 

[Dead Winter]

Ok clearly you dont have a clue what it means to be a neutral country. And yes, I have lived in america for several years and still follow american politics more closesly than my relatives who actually live in america.
And where the hell did you get the idea that switzerland is isolated from the rest of the world? Our economy is completely tied to the rest of the eu. Saying that a neutral country is isolated is total bs.

Well, it's not like you're not in tune with what's going on around you, silly. You don't LITERALLY live in a bubble. But your government IS, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, sheltered from having to make decisions based on anything other than yourselves. It's a very egocentric system, albeit a necessary one. I'm not even saying that other countries are better or worse (I think I'd rather live in Switzerland than move back to the states, actually), just that they're IMMUNE to the negative effects. You have that privilege that no one else has: neutrality. You don't have to worry about subways and buses being blown up as in Spain or the UK. You don't have to worry about coalitions, partnerships, alliances, etc. because you are the ARBITER of said coalitions, partnerships, alliances, etc. It's a lofty responsibility, but it also a breeding ground for the tendency of people there to point the finger at everyone else and chastise everyone else for their politics, foreign policies, etc., and it's something you people do a lot, whether you like it or not. No one's saying you're not part of Europe or that you're somehow insulated from everyone else's economic woes. You ARE, however, insulated from any foreign policy disputes, skirmishes, or military action and all fallout resulting from it, be it good or bad.

When Switzerland decides to stop being Switzerland and starts sending troops to the Strait of Hormuz to dissuade Iran from controlling a free-passage zone, or sends troops to Libya or Lebanon or Afghanistan or Mexico or Africa or South America, then Switzerland can start to be taken seriously in geopolitics. When they stop allowing safe haven for former dictators and family of said dictators and educating their tyrant sons (North Korea), as well as safe haven for thieving companies to hide their hidden assets and then refuse to hand the stolen money back, then we can talk politics and you can resume pointing the finger. Don't get me wrong...Switzerland is absolutely necessary to geopolitics...everyone else's geopolitics. However, you don't get the right to point the finger when you don't even lift said finger to help anyone but yourselves. That's the price for being a neutral country. That's what "neutral" means, neither bad nor good. You're just...there. And you should remain there, preferably quietly.

Where did you read that lol? Ive been to several "satanic" concerts here, pentagrams, burning crosses and everything.
And why are you getting so mad at me (and for some reason Switzerland as a whole) for getting involved in a matter that affects me directly? We are a part of this world and have just as mch a right to put in our citizens have just as much a right to put in their 2 cents as those of any other country.
And yes, I truly believe that its a good thing to get input from a party who is uninvolved in a matter and has nothing to gain or lose from the outcome, provided they are fully informed on the matter. But saying that I understand nothing about politics because I happen to live in a neutral country is simply idiotic.

You're obviously too young to remember the satanic band thing. Maybe I shot that over your head. You've honestly never heard of Switzerland's history of banning certain bands? Dude that's common knowledge. I doubt they still do it because we're in 2012, but it was a problem years ago.

Yes, you are a part of this world and you do have a right to put your two cents in. I'm not saying you don't. However, "being fully informed" and being "an uninvolved party" are contradictory; you cannot be fully informed without being involved. You're simply looking at the superficial issue without being privy to any more information on EITHER side. What you're saying is the same thing as me telling Libya how they should set up their new government, simply because I'm a neutral party with nothing to gain. That's called speculation and just running off at the mouth about shit you don't know anything about, and it's usually considered rude and offensive, which is exactly why the Swiss should STFU when it comes to geopolitics. It's nothing personal. Of course you can speak your mind all you want and you have a voice, but don't get pissed off when everyone else waves you off and dismisses anything you have to say. Switzerland is just one big armchair quarterback. A beautiful, well-organized, and peaceful armchair quarterback with high taxes and overzealous police, but an armchair quarterback nonetheless.

 

[Talking Backwards]

Here's another example of how the "pirates" are "stealing" from the poor developer.

http://kotaku.com/5878284/mass-effect-will-set-a-record-for-most-expensive-dlc

It's shit like this that almost legitimizes piracy in some cases. DLC was initially said to be a way to mitigate piracy to an extent, yet it has become piracy in and of itself. Fight fire with fire and then wonder why the flames are higher.

@Replicated: Yeah, although it just sucks when musicians can't make a good enough of a living that it can be their only job. People tend to function better with jobs that they love. There's a pretty big difference though between living comfortably while doing what you love and simply doing something because you love to live in excess. I agree somewhat though with the general idea about removing money from the equation though and seeing how the end product turns out. It just seems like it would be counterproductive, unless you're only expecting to see an album every 5-10 years simply because they won't have enough time thanks to being busy with their "real" job and other facets of life.


One thing that I had always respected about Nevermore (other than the fact that I obviously love their music) was their unwillingness to bend that much and do what some exec said that they should for more money. This probably hurt their "popularity" and personal income, but fuck if they didn't make some of the best music in the last decade because of it. I don't know if the "rockstar/guitargod" mentality took control or what the major divide ended up being, but it would be a shame if it had mostly boiled down to money--because if that's what the root was, I wonder what things would look like if Nevermore had actually been two or three times as big as they were.

 

[Dead Winter]

It's not about putting it out, but about creating it in the first place.

Wat. In this day and age with the technology we have? It's nearly done for you.

Also, if it's really so difficult to create good music that you must be paid a mint for your efforts, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE CREATING MUSIC.

People who want to be musicians and do it for a living need to learn that you can wish and one hand and shit in the other and then see which one fills up faster. Just because you don't do anything but write music all day long doesn't mean the public has an obligation to pay for what you create, or SHOULD pay for it. If I record a monkey farting in a tuba and try to sell it and no one buys it, IT'S NOT THE INTERNET'S FAULT NO ONE BOUGHT IT. IT'S A MONKEY FARTING IN A TUBA.

As previously mentioned, if you somehow convince the public that they want to hear a monkey farting in a tuba and you get rich off of that, then that's savvy business sense, and you deserve the money you get. NOT BECAUSE OF YOUR MONKEY FARTING IN A TUBA, BUT BECAUSE YOU'RE GOOD AT BULLSHITTING.

 

[Sentient 6]

I don't really disagree with anything in the above post.

That said, goddamn I love money.

I love to pay my bills and keep making music... money is great until you work to make it and your "boss" doesn't pay you

 

[Liverslapper]

I'm tired of being at the bottom of the threads

(insert mom joke)

 

[Dead Winter]

It just seems like it would be counterproductive, unless you're only expecting to see an album every 5-10 years simply because they won't have enough time thanks to being busy with their "real" job and other facets of life.

I'd rather have an amazing album once every 5 years than a decent album once every two. Obviously you're gonna need supplemental income to achieve that, but you do what you can. Dude, seriously, if I could make 25k euros per year just off of music, I'd retire early. I don't need more than that, AND I'd be doing something I loved. But even then, saying "I'm doing something I love" doesn't hold as much weight as being able to live off of the music you create. Making music isn't just something you love, it's who you are. I loved my job in the military years ago but I'd much rather play music for a living, even at half the salary.

As long as bands are allowed to continue making the music they love at the level they want to do it, I really can't see where excess and greed should come into the picture.

At the end of the day, however, we have to stay in reality. Art is art. As beautiful and wonderful as it is, you can't eat it and you can't sleep underneath it. If you can sustain a decent quality of life and continuously make music without damaging yourself or your family, I'd say you're living the dream.

 

[Liverslapper]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn9-80ObGA8&hd=1[/ame]

 

[Talking Backwards]

I'd rather have an amazing album once every 5 years than a decent album once every two.

Well yeah, I agree with the sentiment, but goddamnit I want to hear new music from my favorite bands, and I want it to be just as good if not more evolved than the last!

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

I don't think having a full time job has anything to do with the quality of the music you create.

I don't think time is an issue at all. My favorite album (Quintessence) came out two years after the one before it. The last Borknagar album came out five or six years after Origin, and was entirely forgettable.

 

[Talking Backwards]

I don't think having a full time job has anything to do with the quality of the music you create.

I don't think time is an issue at all. My favorite album (Quintessence) came out two years after the one before it. The last Borknagar album came out five or six years after Origin, and was entirely forgettable.

All he said was that he wouldn't want an artist putting out material every few years just to release an album. He would rather they be able to take longer if they needed to make sure it was good.

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

Oh, yeah?

 

[Talking Backwards]

Oh, yeah?