The Teleological Proof for God

[Dushan S]

So you are saying that your physical actions should line up with what is in the bible without actually trying to follow it. So it can tell you whether what you do ior have done is correct, but you should read it and then try to do it, is that what you mean? So if you find yourself lusting after some woman on TV or wherever and she is not your wife and then you just feel an urge to pluck out your eye (or cut off your hand if you have been stimulating yourself with it) then you are following Christ's instructions, so that is good. But if you read it in the bible first, and told yourself that you must mutilate yourself if you look at a woman that way, then that is getting too religious and is not the right way. Did I get that correct?

Matthew 6:4 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

Norsemaiden, I must ask: Why are you doing all this? It seems like you have some personal issue about christianity and authorities in general. You are beating to death christain faith using its obvious flaws in logic at every oportunity. It is not that hard, christianity is not so much about faith and spirituality but about some other stuff, and person with open mind can find a tons of book dealing with this. No matter what you or me say or do, there are people that need mass religion, for whatever reason, and have in mind, some of them are true to this, and religion is making them better persons. So you should have a certain respect to that and fact that there is a sometimes hidden spiritual core in every mass religion.
But if you spend your time to point at christianity and christians in a bad way so often, than maybe you should think about your motives. In what way Christianity itself and christian roots of this society affects you, and why are you offended by them?
I am not attacking you, or patronising you, just it is my logic that it is always better to be affirmative, positive. It is easy to find weak points in one doctrine. But why not try to make your own philosophy of living, your own approach? What do YOU think it is a way to lead life? What is your way to deal with problems, your way to balance your everyday life and spiritual self? When criticizing something, people should do that because they have alternative they consider better way. At some point we get to old to rebel against system of any kind without alternative replacement.

Finaly, have one thing in mind... I was very negative about about christianity until few years ago. Then it came to me that even if I technically do not agree with christianity as a doctrine, very fact that I was born in a society built on judeo-christian values makes part of me christian, even if I was not aware about it. Just try to talk with any person born in far foreign culture and you will see how much you are different and VERY christian compared to that person. So at least in my case, accepting some qualities of Christianity and learning about it has made me more peaceful, because there is no clash between christian roots and non christan in me. I am still very much against mass relligion, not only Christian relligion, but at the same time I can be more objective about it and use "christian part" of myself in a good way.

Hope I got myself across in a clear and good way... All the best!

 

[Thoth-Amon]

In addition, there is the East-West (Rome vs. Constantinople or Catholic vs. Coptic/Orthodox) debate that caused the death and inquisition of untold thousand and even millions of sects, caused the schism etc. In the West, Christ was the son of God when on earth, and in the East, Christ was a man on earth, and became the son of God at his death and resurrection. This throws a different wrinkle into the equation, and is the reason I feel the Orthodox faith is far more spiritually and theologically valid.

This is incorrect. Both the Orthodox East and the Catholic West believe that Christ is the ETERNAL Son of God and has always been such both before the incarnation and during the incarnation and after the resurrection. In both Eastern and Western theology Jesus is both man and God and was both man and God when he was on this earth.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

Clearly then you don't grasp that every single philosophical debate beyond pure mathematical logic proofs (and even these arguably) is based on the framework of beliefs and perspectives. if you tell me I should not debate astrophysics when astrophysics provides a counter-argument, then you are merely afraid I am right.

i don't care if you're right or not
i'm saying that if you feel the need to prove yourself right with regards to the astrophisics stuff
then start a new astrophisics thread to keep this one on topic

 

[Demilich]

I'm not going to read the intermittent posts in the thread, instead I'll simply reply to the original question.

This teleological argument is inherently faulty in that it presumes that something which serves a specific purpose and appears to have been constructed for that purpose MUST have been designed by a sentient craftsman with the intent to forge something for this particular purpose.

What I find dubious about this theory is the notion of contradictory intentions and results. I do believe that anything could in theory be invented for any reason, constructed as meticulously as the craftsman intended, yet could later be adapted to a completely different use. I can't think of a very good example, but this one should suffice: The invention of the wheel predated by millenia the invention of the automobile, yet the automobile uses the wheel in a way that the inventor(s) of the original form would have been very unlikely to predict as it necessitated all kinds of intermitent technological advances. Hence, the world could have been created for a completely different reason than we percieve. The amazing number of coincidences, confluences, etc. could just as likely be coincidental as they are the product of intelligent design.

 

[the alumnus]

false analogy. pieces of a watch do not behave like atoms, subatomic particles, molecules, or whatever else you are trying to compare. if you randomly collide pieces of a watch together, they will not stick because they do not have positive and negative charges. further more, pieces of a watch, when the collide, do not double in size as they pass through each other. nor do they cause other pieces of the watch to gather around them in an orbit.

an interesting aside, using this analogy does prove evolution does not need a designer. after all, you don't find battery powered watches that have key holes and useless crank mechanisms do you? that would be a poor design, forgetting to erase the old blueprints leftovers. yet in species after species, we find vestigial organs all over the place (hip bones in whales, etc.). This alone disproves the designer theory.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

an interesting aside, using this analogy does prove evolution does not need a designer. after all, you don't find battery powered watches that have key holes and useless crank mechanisms do you? that would be a poor design, forgetting to erase the old blueprints leftovers. yet in species after species, we find vestigial organs all over the place (hip bones in whales, etc.). This alone disproves the designer theory.

i was going to mention this but i thought the debate about "inteligent design" should have been its own seperate thread

 

[Mikobass]

Let's keep this simple: Where's the creator now? Why did he stop creating? Is he on vacation or did he retired? Worse, is he dead? Strange that we keep seeing nature evolve around use, yet, cannot perceive the slightest signs of a creator's hand? Why dont we see from time to time a godly hand coming down from the sky and a voice saying : "Abracadabra, here is a new breed of flying pigs!!!" Ok I know I'm bias and my comment is ironic, yet I'm sure you understand my point.

 

[Mikobass]

About the the classic Watchmaker Theory : I found my old watch the other and was thinking about that theory, suddenly, it became real clear to me. I wondered who made my watch, and there it was "Timex" did!! It was written all over the watch!! I found it at 8 occurence of the Timex logo and I did not even open it up to look inside, but I'm sure there are a few more logo in there!! My point you ask? Well, one would think that the universe being so much more elaborate and valuable then a simple watch it's creator would have stamp is name clearly so that everyone knows who actually made it. I figure a big Board on Jupiter saying : "Made by God" was in order!! lol!! I mean why be so low profile after making the universe?

By no means this answers anything, it just points the fact that there is no evidence that stands out of the existence of a God, therefore we must take for granted that he does not exist until we do find these evidence. I'm not suggesting we should stop looking for them completely, but why waste so much time, energy and stamina on something that so crucially weak on evidence? Let's put our minds and powers in searching more plausible avenues...

;-)

 

[proglodite]

You created your post, didn't you? So why isn't your post changing before my very eyes? Is is because you finished creating it, and it is now created?

Revelation 3:20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

God does not force himself upon you in the same manner as corporations with billboards upon the unquestioning public; he stands and knocks.

Brad

 

[Mikobass]

Yes, my post is created, yet if you look at it, I DID change it before your very eyes!! I just added a winking Smiley!

Well I posted, you answered, I am answering back again right now! That's communication right? A book (or compilation of 66 books) written by different mens a few thousand years ago does not qualify as "Communication". It's a one way message at most!

Also, before citing a book and taking it for granted as a book inspired by a GOD, shouldn't we autentify it first? If somebody was able to do that, then I'd revise my position! Until then, it has a much value as Harry Potter or Lord of the Ring. The bible god you are refering to is suposed to have sacrificed his one and only son for us, would it be so hard for him to give an undeniable proof once and for all? I mean try to contest the existence of gravity for example, you can't!! But no we got this omnipotent God who has a big secrative master plan for his puppet creation and choose to remain elusive and ultra low profile... Strange (but so convenient!) that his son appeared in a time where technology was minimal...

 

[Horus]

If God existed, why did he stop communicating with humans? What happened that he decided to shut himself off from humans? There was sure to be at least ONE person to have lived within the past 2000 years that was at least alittle worthy of being spoken to by the creator. It seems like nowadays, God is some big celebrity who has no time for anything that's less than him. Thousands of years have gone by with wars carried out in his name, murders and crimes commited to please him, and actions taken, using him as a scapegoat. Even GOD can't have the patience to sit listening to the bitching and moaning of humans for 2000 years, because think about how often people go to church, temple, or anywhere else to pray to god for blessing, forgiveness, etc. If I heard 5 billion voices calling out to me to help them, I'd have said something. My point is that wtf has "God" been doing for the past 2000 years.


If God exists, may he strike ,e down when one person reads this.

 

[proglodite]

Revelation 3:20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

God does not force himself upon you in the same manner as corporations with billboards upon the unquestioning public; he stands and knocks.

.

 

[Demilich]

Yeah, he just stands and knocks opposing views down through polemical tactics (late antiquity), crusades (middle ages) and moral hyperbole (these days!)

 

[Horus]

That quote by Proglodite is very blatantly obvious and seems like it could be a very good defense, except my entire argument lays in my posts from this thread:

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205189&page=18

 

[Mikobass]

Ok, let's say for some reason God decided to stay secretive and has this big master plan that needs to be carried carried out by is tiny ant-like puppets preaching in suits ans tie...
But What about Satan? Why is he so low profile? He has legions of demons, shouldn't their be a rampage here and there from time to time reported in the news? I mean theirs bound to be at least one proof of these legions of blood thirsty demon looking for some action? Right? But no, not even one tiny let go from the Hellish troups!! How desapointing!!

So what do we have after 2000 years? Two unprovable, contradictory, secretive Gods (or God wannabe), one big book and millions of blinded people thinking they are the chosen ones... Cofee's ready everyone, please, please, PLEASE take a sip!!

 

[Silver Incubus]

Ok, let's say for some reason God decided to stay secretive and has this big master plan that needs to be carried carried out by is tiny ant-like puppets preaching in suits ans tie...
But What about Satan? Why is he so low profile? He has legions of demons, shouldn't their be a rampage here and there from time to time reported in the news? I mean theirs bound to be at least one proof of these legions of blood thirsty demon looking for some action? Right? But no, not even one tiny let go from the Hellish troups!! How desapointing!!

So what do we have after 2000 years? Two unprovable, contradictory, secretive Gods (or God wannabe), one big book and millions of blinded people thinking they are the chosen ones... Cofee's ready everyone, please, please, PLEASE take a sip!!

Well in terms of the christian mythology, demons are not actual real flesh and blood beings but spiritual beings whom influence the minds of the weak to do harmful actions. And every once in a while people have full out possesion by these demons whom gain almost full control of the body and thought processes of the individual that is posessed. think of the people whom kill people because god told them so, and it could be mental illness or demonic possesion, could be both, or just mental illness depending on what you believe to be true or false.

 

[proglodite]

Satan and his demons are unable to affect the physical unless given permission and/or willed to by a physical being.

 

[Horus]

Well then how does that explain random possesions? If one of those people being "enlightened" on one of those Televangelist shows had a demon in them, did they wish for the demon to posess them? And also, if Satan's evil enough to DECLARE WAR ON GOD, TO DECLARE WAR ON GOD, WAR ON GOD, ON GOD, the what makes him think he needs permission to do something affecting one measley little human?

 

[Mikobass]

And if we think of it logically, would you declare war on an omnipotent God? If Satan chose to do so, don't you think he must have thought had a chance to prevail? Satan was an Angel right, something a bit better then man if I remember (Arghh!!!) my old bible studies. So we can fairly say he was at least (probably more) as intelligent as stupid little me... And I know I would not take on an open war with a God if I did not have a chance to begin with. Unless, he's not All-Powerful after all... But then he would not be much of a God now would he? Unless he does not exist.

So here you go, make the call
1- God is not a god
2- God does not exist

 

[Horus]

That wasn't my point though. My point was that if Lucifer had the balls to do something like declaring war on God, why would he think he needs permission to posess someone or something? That was my point.

But you do bring up another good point about standing a chance against God. I doubt that John Milton was trying to imply that God isn't all powerful when he wrote Paradise Lost, but it does bring an interesting question of God's mortality into the picture. If Lucifer tried t declare war on God, that obviously meant that he saw some kind of weakness in God. And if the other Angels followed him, that means that they also saw this weakness. That clues a person into beginning to suspect some kind of weakness in God. (And I think I may have figured out what that weakness may be, if God is in fact, real.It almost sounds like I'm trying to figure out how to defeat God....

With this post, I've officially crossed the crooked step. From here on, I now see myself as insane.