The wikileaks video
- Thread starter Brooks
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Morbides
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- Dec 8, 2007
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Well if anybody has the slightest interest in any particular matter, they can't be unbiased. And as we know interests are constantly intertwined..
Whatever.
Dead Winter
STAHP
Whoa, hang on there speed racer. I know what you're saying but I'm thinking you're being a bit overzealous with your declaration of what is and is not a war, especially without ever having been there. Granted, you're absolutely right that it is unjust and based on flat-out lies, but it's still a war and it's not all one-sided. Ok, we took over the country in a month, but the aftermath was/is brutal and devastating for both sides.
Clearly, the US is in the wrong on all fronts but it's just as easy to sit in front of the tv in Romania playing armchair general as it is playing armchair general in front of your tv in the US.
Morbides
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You have a point too. But my intention was not to define what makes a war and what does not. I was talking about that specific situation in that particular video when I wrote "this isn't war". Granted it was a quick post influenced by feelings stirred up after viewing the video.
Edit: Opinions shouldn't be taken as facts though.
Edit: Opinions shouldn't be taken as facts though.
Dead Winter
STAHP
Also Brooks, the other news agencies are probably scouring this video to make sure it's not a fake or been tampered with in any way...something Al Jazeera doesn't really care about. Al Jazeera is THE most biased "free" news agency in the world...it's not a surprise they'd put something up on the front page immediately that puts the West in a compromising position. Not defending the others by any means, just speculating about why it may not be there yet.
Dead Winter
STAHP
Dead Winter
STAHP
After watching the video, this shit stinks to high heaven, and not just on the side of the US government. What isn't in the video is the explanation of ROE and how it affects situations like this. We don't know the intelligence they had on this group of people, if any, nor do we know what the ROE was for this particular situation. It was obviously a mistake and a tragedy but it wasn't like they were slaughtering children on purpose...the only reason they would've targeted a group of people is if they had intelligence on them and were looking for specific individuals. Did you hear the guy calling out the RPG? Did you hear the guy not being able to shoot until the journalist who he thought was a terrorist was reaching for a weapon? It was a terrible mistake, but you know what? IT'S WAR. SHIT HAPPENS. The people who were in charge should be held accountable, but shit like this goes on EVERY SINGLE DAY all over the world...hell, German forces killed like 16 Afghan soldiers in a friendly fire accident the other day. ROE exists to minimize casualties and assure accurate intelligence to prevent accidental deaths, but sometimes shit like this happens and it's ugly and no matter how many precautions you take, there will sometimes be innocents, which is why WAR IS HELL. It's ugly and imo the US was waaaaayyyy too trigger happy in this conflict. However, until you're there, you can't say what you'd do or wouldn't do or what's right or wrong. Getting bombed every day sucked ass, but I can't imagine being in close quarters fighting...you don't know if they're civilians or targets until they're right in front of you and by that time it's too late.
This video portrays the military in a light that they DELIBERATELY targeted civilians and journalists, which isn't true at all. When they zoomed in on the kids in the van on the video, could you tell they were children? Also, why is a van rushing to move bodies in the middle of a firefight? Not only that, but why did the people in the van GET OUT to haul away the injured and dead, and why did they BRING THEIR FUCKING CHILDREN WITH THEM?!?!?! It wasn't an ambulance because you would've seen it clearly marked. Do you know why? I do. It probably wasn't their children and they were being used as human shields. The terrorists over there used to fill up cars with women and children and purposefully send them to crash through checkpoints and do illegal things knowing they'd be fired upon, so when the soldiers fire upon them not knowing it was a car full of women and children, the cameras of all the news agencies would be ready to film the horrible and cruel Americans killing innocent women and children. The even used to stand behind them and shoot at coalition forces, knowing we wouldn't be able to shoot back. Maybe these people really were innocents who were trying to help people, but why would they put their children's lives in danger in the middle of a hotzone?
Also, it's well-documented that there are known journalists with strong ties to terrorist organizations, or were in the past. These may well have been just a freak tragedy in the wrong place at the wrong time, or maybe they were taking out collaborators. We'll probably never know, but you have to think about both sides. I can tell you this: the US government would rather take heat over an accident when it wasn't really an accident if the objective is high enough.
The fucking script in the video is disgusting. LOOK AT THIS. LOOK AT THAT. NOTICE THIS. I guess they didn't take into account THAT THERE WAS A FUCKING FAC (forward air controller) TALKING THE ENTIRE GODDAMN TIME TO THE PILOT AND GUNNER!! They didn't bother to mention who Bushmaster was, did they? Well, I know who Bushmaster is...we've talked to them before. FACS are much closer to the action with eyes on the targets, feeding intelligence, movements and with a vantage line of sight. Just because you didn't see everything in the video doesn't mean it wasn't there. CAS (close air support) missions have many players and there is always someone on the ground calling in airstrikes...someone with eyes on the battlefield. I'm not saying they didn't make a mistake, but you don't know all the information, intelligence, and objectives either.
CAS missions don't entail just opening up on random people on street corners. Also, there are TONS of collateral damage, broken ROE, and fratricide videos out there on the net...why was this one so important to keep a secret?
Kevin, hats off to you, sir, for questioning both sides and their respective validity. It's the prudent way to go. I'm not saying one side is wrong and one is right, but there are some MAJOR holes in the video, besides the ones left in the bodies. Brooks, hats off to you for bringing this to light as well and asking the question.
This video portrays the military in a light that they DELIBERATELY targeted civilians and journalists, which isn't true at all. When they zoomed in on the kids in the van on the video, could you tell they were children? Also, why is a van rushing to move bodies in the middle of a firefight? Not only that, but why did the people in the van GET OUT to haul away the injured and dead, and why did they BRING THEIR FUCKING CHILDREN WITH THEM?!?!?! It wasn't an ambulance because you would've seen it clearly marked. Do you know why? I do. It probably wasn't their children and they were being used as human shields. The terrorists over there used to fill up cars with women and children and purposefully send them to crash through checkpoints and do illegal things knowing they'd be fired upon, so when the soldiers fire upon them not knowing it was a car full of women and children, the cameras of all the news agencies would be ready to film the horrible and cruel Americans killing innocent women and children. The even used to stand behind them and shoot at coalition forces, knowing we wouldn't be able to shoot back. Maybe these people really were innocents who were trying to help people, but why would they put their children's lives in danger in the middle of a hotzone?
Also, it's well-documented that there are known journalists with strong ties to terrorist organizations, or were in the past. These may well have been just a freak tragedy in the wrong place at the wrong time, or maybe they were taking out collaborators. We'll probably never know, but you have to think about both sides. I can tell you this: the US government would rather take heat over an accident when it wasn't really an accident if the objective is high enough.
The fucking script in the video is disgusting. LOOK AT THIS. LOOK AT THAT. NOTICE THIS. I guess they didn't take into account THAT THERE WAS A FUCKING FAC (forward air controller) TALKING THE ENTIRE GODDAMN TIME TO THE PILOT AND GUNNER!! They didn't bother to mention who Bushmaster was, did they? Well, I know who Bushmaster is...we've talked to them before. FACS are much closer to the action with eyes on the targets, feeding intelligence, movements and with a vantage line of sight. Just because you didn't see everything in the video doesn't mean it wasn't there. CAS (close air support) missions have many players and there is always someone on the ground calling in airstrikes...someone with eyes on the battlefield. I'm not saying they didn't make a mistake, but you don't know all the information, intelligence, and objectives either.
CAS missions don't entail just opening up on random people on street corners. Also, there are TONS of collateral damage, broken ROE, and fratricide videos out there on the net...why was this one so important to keep a secret?
Kevin, hats off to you, sir, for questioning both sides and their respective validity. It's the prudent way to go. I'm not saying one side is wrong and one is right, but there are some MAJOR holes in the video, besides the ones left in the bodies. Brooks, hats off to you for bringing this to light as well and asking the question.
~Lynn~
Bah...
guitarguru777
Member
Showed this to my G/F who was there in Iraq when this happened. She states very clearly to me that she wont make any comments other then this....
"Oh it happened more then once .... we all knew about it and hated ...."
Then she began to cry
This is why I dislike my government.
"Oh it happened more then once .... we all knew about it and hated ...."
Then she began to cry
This is why I dislike my government.
Dead Winter
STAHP
Yep. That's my point. It happened more than once and it's public knowledge, so why is this tape so important?
Fortunately, people are beginning to see that there are no more good guys/bad guys in war. War is war and that's it. It's ugly, cruel, and it's not glorious, and anyone who tries to make it glorious has either never been there or they are mentally deficient and watch too much tv.
Also, thank goodness for the internet. The power of the internet is going to enable the people of the world to see what's really going on around them, and world governments will no longer be able to keep them in the dark. I foresee huge changes in the next 50 years.
Fortunately, people are beginning to see that there are no more good guys/bad guys in war. War is war and that's it. It's ugly, cruel, and it's not glorious, and anyone who tries to make it glorious has either never been there or they are mentally deficient and watch too much tv.
Also, thank goodness for the internet. The power of the internet is going to enable the people of the world to see what's really going on around them, and world governments will no longer be able to keep them in the dark. I foresee huge changes in the next 50 years.
derek
Grey Eminence
Dead Winter
STAHP
derek
Grey Eminence
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