This may sounds like a stupid question but...

[ElektricEyez]

First of all, I just wanted to say that this forum ROCKS! Literally, I have learned so much by coming here and reading about all of the tips and tricks, that professional engineers should keep themselves. Seriously, just by reading and learning my recordings have improved big time!

Now to the question, I just recently got Drumagog LE version (which doesn't let you upload your own samples, but it works, and has a couple of decent ones) and after sampling the kick and the snare, it makes mixing a whole lot easier, so you don't have to mess wit EQ-ing and what not. But, after using it, I kinda felt like getting a nice kick drum mic such as the Audix D6, it seems almost entirely pointless, as because I could technically use the cheapest mic in the world, and as long as I can get some good isolation to only the kick, I can just sample the the kick and the snare either way. So really, is there any point in getting the good kick mics and shoot even a good snare mic since your just going to replace the sound file anyway?

I'm only asking this because in metal these days, ALMOST every kick and snare is sampled to death. Even some toms. Not saying it's a bad thing, it makes our jobs easier, shoot it almost feels like cheating.

Arguments against this anyone?

 

[devouredremains]

Recording drums is an art and definitely not for everyone. I say do whatever works for you. I'm quite sure everyone here uses samples for at least augmentation of drum tracks so you will not find many that are against the use of them here.

Keep in mind using samples can limit you especially if you are using the same samples for every song and it may also cause problems if you ever find yourself working outside of the metal genre if you come to rely on them.

 

[ElektricEyez]

I agree that recording drums is an art, and probably the most difficult instrument(s) to record. I guess I was just feeling like spending 200 bones on an Audix D6, and another couple hundred for an Audix i5 and SM57, was almost pointless, after I started sampling. Not that I regret owning those mics, but after sampling I felt like shoot, I could have just gotten away with the Audix Fusion 7 set that I already have. Anyone else ever feel that way, or do you guys prefer to blend the tones of the sample with the tones of the kick and snare? In this case, I suppose that it would be a good investment.

 

[Metaltastic]

Personally, I feel like because the only variation in kick sound is amplitude, sampling is almost always desirable for consistency in anything even remotely heavy (and even if you're recording something lighter, just automate it!). So as a result, I'm planning on getting something like a Shure PG48 for using strictly as a kick trigger, though as for snare, I feel like there's enough potential for the drummer's expression to warrant actually using the original recording and perhaps blending in a sample for consistency.

 

[Aaron Smith]

devouredremains pretty much covered it. However, I don't think any professional audio engineer would ever be excited about the fact that they "don't have to mess wit EQ-ing and what not". If an engineer knows how to process good raw samples into the kind of professional sounding shape that they want, but likes the convenience of not having to do it EVERY time they mix something, then I can see the value in using pre-processed samples. But, if you don't at least know how to process drums and do the work yourself, then to me you wouldn't really be much of an engineer. Plus if you're just gonna keep using Drumagog LE's demo samples in your mixes, doesn't it just seem kind of lame to you, that the drum sounds you're using are the exact same sounds that thousands of other beginner engineers are using?

Here is my suggestion to you: get a nice kick drum mic, get an SM57, get some tom mics, have your friend bring his drum set over (with new heads), tune them (at least experiment with the tuning, so you can at least get a feel for what constitutes a good drum sound), experiment with mic placement, and record the best drum sounds you can dial in. The quality of the source has an awful lot to do with how good the "final" samples will sound! Then, bust out some EQ and compression, and start processing. A/B your drum sounds against some drum sounds you like, which will give you some clues about how to process them. Just keep practicing, and honing your skills. There is never an absolute "You made it!" point in audio engineering, but I really feel that you should be able to be happy with your own drum samples in a mix before you start leaning on someone else's work. If you consider recording a serious pursuit, it's the only way!

I don't even play the drums, but I actually just found a good used 22" Pearl Master's Studio birch shell kick drum (no stupid holes drilled into it for mounting toms) for like $300, so I bought it, along with some new heads, and I've been spending a lot of time experimenting with the tuning, the use of pillows, and microphone placement, and I've finally ended up with some results that I'm really, really happy with. If I A/B my new kick samples against the ones that Andy posted a while back, I prefer mine. Don't interpret that as bashing Andy, because it's nothing of the sort! But, in any aspect of recording, it's always an awesome feeling to come to a closer understanding of how a professional sound is achieved.

 

[ElektricEyez]

Aaron, I think you brought up some pretty good points. I already have all of those mics that were mentioned, and I agree that the LE version sucks in comparison to the full one, and I'll be trying out AptTrigga soon, to see which one I'll be purchasing. I guess I was just thinking that man here I have these killer mics, but it's easier to just sample the sound, than put an EQ/Compressor and/or Limiter on the kick track when the sample sounds better right out of the box. Trust me, I don't just take the sampled sound and leave it at that, I play around with it some, but not nearly as much as I would. I guess the argument was in question because were so used to listening to metal that is sampled. When was the last professional album that had recently been released that wasn't sampled? What are you clients expecting when they walk into your studio? They want their record to sound like industry standards and what else is out there, for the most part. What's easier, pull up your favorite sample, then add a touch of EQ, or tweek with the kick for an extra hour or two, to get it to sound right?

That's cool that you were able to get a killer sound out of your kick, w/o sampling. Maybe I need to do some more experimenting. I do a little of gating and compressing and limiting during the recording process which helps. I guess one of the best answers is to blend it, rather than use a full blown sample. That way you get a touch of the original kit's signature as well as the sampled one.

 

[Aaron Smith]

I think you misunderstood me...I'm not against the use of samples. I use samples all the time! As you said, to achieve that modern sound, samples almost always have to be involved to some degree. The point I was trying to make, was that a good engineer should be able to record his own samples and be able to process them into shape...instead of relying on someone else's work.

apTrigga is great by the way- it's ridiculously inexpensive, and I have been really impressed with how accurately it does the job!

 

[Unavailable]

devouredremains pretty much covered it. However, I don't think any professional audio engineer would ever be excited about the fact that they "don't have to mess wit EQ-ing and what not". If an engineer knows how to process good raw samples into the kind of professional sounding shape that they want, but likes the convenience of not having to do it EVERY time they mix something, then I can see the value in using pre-processed samples. But, if you don't at least know how to process drums and do the work yourself, then to me you wouldn't really be much of an engineer. Plus if you're just gonna keep using Drumagog LE's demo samples in your mixes, doesn't it just seem kind of lame to you, that the drum sounds you're using are the exact same sounds that thousands of other beginner engineers are using?

Here is my suggestion to you: get a nice kick drum mic, get an SM57, get some tom mics, have your friend bring his drum set over (with new heads), tune them (at least experiment with the tuning, so you can at least get a feel for what constitutes a good drum sound), experiment with mic placement, and record the best drum sounds you can dial in. The quality of the source has an awful lot to do with how good the "final" samples will sound! Then, bust out some EQ and compression, and start processing. A/B your drum sounds against some drum sounds you like, which will give you some clues about how to process them. Just keep practicing, and honing your skills. There is never an absolute "You made it!" point in audio engineering, but I really feel that you should be able to be happy with your own drum samples in a mix before you start leaning on someone else's work. If you consider recording a serious pursuit, it's the only way!

I don't even play the drums, but I actually just found a good used 22" Pearl Master's Studio birch shell kick drum (no stupid holes drilled into it for mounting toms) for like $300, so I bought it, along with some new heads, and I've been spending a lot of time experimenting with the tuning, the use of pillows, and microphone placement, and I've finally ended up with some results that I'm really, really happy with. If I A/B my new kick samples against the ones that Andy posted a while back, I prefer mine. Don't interpret that as bashing Andy, because it's nothing of the sort! But, in any aspect of recording, it's always an awesome feeling to come to a closer understanding of how a professional sound is achieved.

Win.

 

[ElektricEyez]

I think you misunderstood me...I'm not against the use of samples. I use samples all the time! As you said, to achieve that modern sound, samples almost always have to be involved to some degree. The point I was trying to make, was that a good engineer should be able to record his own samples and be able to process them into shape...instead of relying on someone else's work.

apTrigga is great by the way- it's ridiculously inexpensive, and I have been really impressed with how accurately it does the job!

OK I get you now. Your right. The LE sucks cuz I already have a snare sample I made awhile back ready to be loaded and the bastard LE version wouldn't let me. But I do want to make my own samples, as well as use some of the killer samples that are available on this board.

Good points, now I don't feel so bad for having some killer mics, I didn't think of that. See, I told you it was a stupid question! Oh well sometimes the obvious things are the hardest ones to see LoL!