I think, and this is just speculation because I don't know, that promotor fear has something to do with why power metal bands usually wind up touring with metalcore bands. Metalcore is of course big in the US and you know they're going to draw. On the other hand, a promotor who isn't used to dealing with Europower may be nervous about the draw, they see comparatively low sales figures, so they make sure to put a domestically solid-drawing act on the tour basically to protect themselves from total losses. Setting up a tour of just power metal bands would be a fantastic idea! I would be there in spades. But I think promotors/booking agents would be reticent about saying Yes to it.
Touring Discussion (part 2)
- Thread starter Palabra de Dios
- Start date
Force10
Member
I think you're onto something here. I always surprised that I don't see more Blind Guardian or Angra shirts at a Dream Theater or Iron Maiden show. These people, such as your brother, aren't using the internet to find out about music. They are sticking with radio and tv to inform them, and we all know how little that does nowadays, so they remain in the dark. These are the same people that were pissed that Maiden didn't play "The Trooper" on the last tour.
I've also met lots of people who really enjoy music, but don't make any effort to go see a show, even if it's one of their favorites. If they have little to no desire to attend a show, they're probably not looking up tour dates online.
skyrefuge
Member
A few thoughts:
- Do power metal bands really draw more in Europe than the US? I think they probably do, but it's probably worth digging up some real numbers and doing the comparison, because I think there is still a tendency for the American mind to imagine these bands playing much larger places than they actually do (and things like Iced Earth putting a picture of Wacken on the back of 'Alive in Athens' certainly fuels this imagination!)
- Do the differences hold up on a population-density basis? Europe generally has a much higher population density than the US, so a single show in Europe may not need to draw from as wide of a geographical area as a show in the US to reach an equivalent number.
- Canada can be a good case-study to test any hypotheses. Again, it would be good to have some real numbers, but my feeling is that power metal bands tend to draw better in Canadian cities than US cities of a similar size. Any valid theory would have to explain this differential, so "bands just do better in their home base" can't be the sole explanation.
- Does Europe (and Canada) have more homogeneity in culture and music tastes than the US? In the US, significant parts of the population devote most of their listening to non-rock genres such as country or hip-hop/R&B. Could this reduce the effective population density of potential power metal fans relative to Europe?
In general, I think a large part of the answer will come down to "who the hell knows why it is like it is?" Figuring out the formula for what makes something popular is the holy grail that the music industry has been eternally trying to discover. The complexity of the system and the number of variables to account for makes predicting the weather look like child's play in comparison, to the point where anything that happens in the music industry can be effectively regarded as random.
Holy crap, you do understand the value of surveying a wider sample space than your two friends! Awesome! I hope that you can now remember that when making your own claims.
That sounds like a tour of three bands who would want to get paid, and zero who would want to spend money to finance the tour. I really have no idea at what level the "buy-on" line is drawn, but I get the feeling that most tours of this scale need a combination of getting-paid headliners and a paying undercard in order to be financially viable. Most Euro power metal bands are already successful headliners in their own country before coming to the US, so they're likely less interested in touring at a loss. Or splitting the profits with another Euro power metal band headliner. Maybe a Helloween / Gamma Ray tour draws 10% more people at 20% higher ticket prices than either band would get alone, but if they get paid 50% less because they have to split the guarantee, it makes more sense for them to be on their own with "crap" openers instead.
Neil
- Do power metal bands really draw more in Europe than the US? I think they probably do, but it's probably worth digging up some real numbers and doing the comparison, because I think there is still a tendency for the American mind to imagine these bands playing much larger places than they actually do (and things like Iced Earth putting a picture of Wacken on the back of 'Alive in Athens' certainly fuels this imagination!)
- Do the differences hold up on a population-density basis? Europe generally has a much higher population density than the US, so a single show in Europe may not need to draw from as wide of a geographical area as a show in the US to reach an equivalent number.
- Canada can be a good case-study to test any hypotheses. Again, it would be good to have some real numbers, but my feeling is that power metal bands tend to draw better in Canadian cities than US cities of a similar size. Any valid theory would have to explain this differential, so "bands just do better in their home base" can't be the sole explanation.
- Does Europe (and Canada) have more homogeneity in culture and music tastes than the US? In the US, significant parts of the population devote most of their listening to non-rock genres such as country or hip-hop/R&B. Could this reduce the effective population density of potential power metal fans relative to Europe?
In general, I think a large part of the answer will come down to "who the hell knows why it is like it is?" Figuring out the formula for what makes something popular is the holy grail that the music industry has been eternally trying to discover. The complexity of the system and the number of variables to account for makes predicting the weather look like child's play in comparison, to the point where anything that happens in the music industry can be effectively regarded as random.
Holy crap, you do understand the value of surveying a wider sample space than your two friends! Awesome! I hope that you can now remember that when making your own claims.
That sounds like a tour of three bands who would want to get paid, and zero who would want to spend money to finance the tour. I really have no idea at what level the "buy-on" line is drawn, but I get the feeling that most tours of this scale need a combination of getting-paid headliners and a paying undercard in order to be financially viable. Most Euro power metal bands are already successful headliners in their own country before coming to the US, so they're likely less interested in touring at a loss. Or splitting the profits with another Euro power metal band headliner. Maybe a Helloween / Gamma Ray tour draws 10% more people at 20% higher ticket prices than either band would get alone, but if they get paid 50% less because they have to split the guarantee, it makes more sense for them to be on their own with "crap" openers instead.
Neil
Element_man
Lord of the Realm
There's some good stuff in this thread, but I think this is one of the biggest parts of it. And the sound too, as you mentioned. I've discussed this with local musicians, "Why aren't there more melodic bands in our local scene? Why is Alberta saturated with death/black/thrash metal?" and we eventually called the situation "The Achilles Heel of Power metal". The look, the sound, the attitude, the style. Power metal separates itself from the mainstream because it's still "metal", (that shit just don't fly on NA radio) and it separates itself from the extreme metal fanatics because "it's gay/flamboyant/lame/geeky/cheesy/happy/whatever". Hell, even I feel that way about some Europower bands I was really into when I was younger. I listen to them now and think "God, this is soooo gay. I can't believe I liked this happy shit". It's a pretty strange dynamic, considering how potentially accessible power metal could be to a mainstream crowd.
Basically, shit sucks. It's a niche market over here, but hopefully things will improve.
Jasonic
Doom On!
Don't be a tool.
I have been going to shows a lot longer than you, and have probably lifetime gone to a lot more what you have. Sure, you may go to more shows than I do these days, but I think I can have a valid opinion from going to shows for over 20 years. And for the record ,I have been to 7 shows this year....
Jasonic
Doom On!
Jasonic
Doom On!
GOOD call!!
I remember when the ALIVE IN ATHENS DVD came out, and everyone was expecting to see them playing some big outdoor venue.
Yeah, it's definitely all the open air festivals which aids in the perception of how well bands draw in Europe.
Still though, a band like Helloween, esp in this post-Ozzfest world, will not immediately appeal to a tween.
All one can hope is that for every 100 kids who discovered DragonForce, 10% will dig a little deeper and discover what the underground has to offer.
Jasonic
Doom On!
That lineup would draw less than Edguy with 2 crappy metalcore openers. Just being honest.
AngraRULES
Member
I am curious as to who these bands you mention are (these ones that are "so gay.") Not gonna lie to you, I will have to compare their sound to the way your bands sounds, since I find it rather ironic that you're criticizing a genre that your band is a part of (or trying to become a part of anyway). It borderlines hypocrisy the way you made it sound like.
AngraRULES
Member
No shit. Edguy draws a little bit, Pagan's Mind has toured the US with Strato but I can't see them drawing much. Brainstorm wouldn't draw shit.
I still think if Into Eternity and Blackguard played at the same venue 8 times in a month, they would still draw more than this tour if they played the same venue a 9th time.
Jasonic
Doom On!
Exactly.
There were a couple 40 somethings sitting behind me at Maiden this summer.
They brought up some site on their smartphone to view the Maiden setlist.
As they ran it down, song by song they went, "Don't know that one, don't know that one, don't know that one, etc, etc"
Maiden is an extremely unique band in this regard.
They are willing to take risks like playing AMOLAD in its entirety, or heavily weighing their setlist with Brave New World and beyond material.
They want to gain new fans.
I suppose they feel at this point they are almost beyond retention.
They probably know and figure it isn't the older crowd who is waiting for their new one to come out. Sales to older crowds are probably made up by folks like us who stay more in tune with new releases.
I would be curious to know how many new fans Dream Theater made on that tour, speaking of.
AngraRULES
Member
See, and then when I make a comment on the forum in regards to how condescending some of the real old school folks are, people think I am being a dick who will never get old...
Jasonic
Doom On!
See, and then when I make a comment on the forum in regards to how condescending some of the real old school folks are, people think I am being a dick, and I'm just a young kid who doesn't know anything (even though I'm closer to being 30 than a teenager).
Nope, I am 35 and would agree with you.
Not sure exactly what you mean in how old school folks are condescending.
Do you mean towards younger "Fans" or younger "Bands"???
This whole conversation to me falls into the never ending discussion on how I think people mispercieve a band's popularity based on how they are discussed on these forums.
Not bashing Prog Power regulars, but as a bystander, for years I have seen people make claims about how amazingly well a band like Manticora, Circle II Circle, Brainstorm, Pagan's Mind, etc would draw in the States. The reality is, regardless of how much you might like these bands, they are EXTREMELY unknown outside of these circles.
Diabolik
Member
doubtful. You forget how many of the punk shows I have been to taping them and stuff. Didnt realize this was a competion. I was just stating that you claim to know so much about current live shows and turnouts but never seem to go to any shows.
AngraRULES
Member
I mean towards younger fans. I am 26. Fans like those you mentioned just irritate me. A lot of times, they think they are the real fans because they liked the band 20 years ago, but yet neglect to continue following them.
That being said, some of the younger fans irritate me too.
hahahahaha SHIT I AM GETTING OLD! I guess I've hit my metal mid-life crisis! Jasonic said:
Jason, you nailed it! It just seems that a lot of the fans in the States have no clue about how well a band draws. "Damn these guys are awesome and they headline in Norway, so they can definitely headline here too! I saw their T-Shirt for sale in a USA merch store, so they DEFINITELY HAVE A US FOLLOWING!" Ugh... Typical know-it-all metal fans...
Dolamite S. Biffle
Biffliest Person Ever
I didnt say the tour would draw, but it would be a great show. I bet there would be more peopel at the bar just to be at the bar then to watch bands.
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
I don't believe Americans dislike this type of music. The last time Americans were exposed to this music in any sort of significant way, was 20 years ago. I think there's simply a lack of exposure to this kind of music. However, I'm not sure that lack of exposure is based on anything other than the preconceived notions of a few people, in prominent positions, regarding what will sell. Let's face it, it's not like every so often one of the major labels takes a chance on a European Power Metal band, gives them a massive push here in the states, and watches helplessly as they fail miserably. How do we know what teenagers will find cheesy? They certainly flocked to DragonForce in massive numbers, and that band was as cheesy as Manowar after a weekend long Velveeta bender.
I think bands (and genres) who are outside the current norm, whatever that current norm may be, have to force themselves in through the door. It's important to recognize, that at any given time, the record companies have a great deal of money invested in the status quo. Look at it this way... if tomorrow Hip Hop was over, in much the same way Metal was over in the early 90s, record companies would lose all the money they're contractually obligated to pay out for future records, that wouldn't sell the way they had projected they would. Consequently, they don't want things to change... it threatens their future quarterly projections and calls into question shareholder value. So why sign an Angra or an Edguy? If they flop, you lose your money. If they break huge and the industry shifts, you lose the money you had projected from the future sales of the artists currently in your stable (who would no longer be in vogue).
A bit of anecdotal evidence... I took my nieces and nephews to see Iced Earth on The Glorious Burden tour (who were between 15 and 19). I'm not sure what could possibly be perceived as less cool, than a classic sounding Metal performing songs about the Civil War. However, they all loved the shows. Actually, they said it was the best show they had ever seen. I think there's an audience out there... there's just no interest among major labels to invest the appropriate resources to cultivate it.
As a side note, I think we'll see a revival in Rock and Metal. I say this for two reasons. One, things are cyclical. Two, things aren't great in the country. When people are angry or scare or frustrated, art tends to reflect that.
I think bands (and genres) who are outside the current norm, whatever that current norm may be, have to force themselves in through the door. It's important to recognize, that at any given time, the record companies have a great deal of money invested in the status quo. Look at it this way... if tomorrow Hip Hop was over, in much the same way Metal was over in the early 90s, record companies would lose all the money they're contractually obligated to pay out for future records, that wouldn't sell the way they had projected they would. Consequently, they don't want things to change... it threatens their future quarterly projections and calls into question shareholder value. So why sign an Angra or an Edguy? If they flop, you lose your money. If they break huge and the industry shifts, you lose the money you had projected from the future sales of the artists currently in your stable (who would no longer be in vogue).
A bit of anecdotal evidence... I took my nieces and nephews to see Iced Earth on The Glorious Burden tour (who were between 15 and 19). I'm not sure what could possibly be perceived as less cool, than a classic sounding Metal performing songs about the Civil War. However, they all loved the shows. Actually, they said it was the best show they had ever seen. I think there's an audience out there... there's just no interest among major labels to invest the appropriate resources to cultivate it.
As a side note, I think we'll see a revival in Rock and Metal. I say this for two reasons. One, things are cyclical. Two, things aren't great in the country. When people are angry or scare or frustrated, art tends to reflect that.
I often think there's a lot of prog and power metal fans out there "waiting to happen". I sometimes meet people who I think would be very receptive to it, it's just that they've never heard of it. (That's a short way of saying I generally agree with Zod)
I don't agree with the very last part of Zod's post. I don't think we're going to see a rock and metal revival. The revival is here. We're in it right now. This is what it is. I don't think it's going to get any "more" than it is now. I've been hearing talk of the "metal resurgence" for over ten years. Its like tomorrow: it's always approaching, but it never arrives. I have an issue of Guitar magazine from 1997 which reviews Megadeth Cryptic Writings. The review includes a sentence "If we are on the cusp of a major metal revival, which some people believe is about to happen, Cryptic Writings may well signal its arrival..." that was 13 years ago. What I think is that the metal revival started...but it took a sharp left turn. Nu-metal exploded, followed immediately by metalcore. Underneath all that, power metal arrived in a more quiet fashion, followed by the retro-thrash and NWOBHM revival. I think it's peaking now. The peak itself is just gentler. (I'm speaking of the US here)
I don't agree with the very last part of Zod's post. I don't think we're going to see a rock and metal revival. The revival is here. We're in it right now. This is what it is. I don't think it's going to get any "more" than it is now. I've been hearing talk of the "metal resurgence" for over ten years. Its like tomorrow: it's always approaching, but it never arrives. I have an issue of Guitar magazine from 1997 which reviews Megadeth Cryptic Writings. The review includes a sentence "If we are on the cusp of a major metal revival, which some people believe is about to happen, Cryptic Writings may well signal its arrival..." that was 13 years ago. What I think is that the metal revival started...but it took a sharp left turn. Nu-metal exploded, followed immediately by metalcore. Underneath all that, power metal arrived in a more quiet fashion, followed by the retro-thrash and NWOBHM revival. I think it's peaking now. The peak itself is just gentler. (I'm speaking of the US here)
I have no doubt that there is a far larger potential audience in the US for power metal then currently exists. And across all ages. An untapped audience, I truly believe, is among older folks who may well be receptive to more sophisticated and melodic metal. If they only had the opportunity to hear it.
And that's the problem. Exposure. Most 40-somethings don't have the time nor the inclination to seek out new music. I stumbled into this scene by pure luck. I was a prog snob from the '70s, (I'm 51) had just about given up on new music. But then I heard songs from Operation Mindcrime on Z-Rock circa 1990, liked that, heard Dream Theater, and then came the internet and internet rock stations, and the rest is history. A whole world of music hardly known to anyone at all in the States.
While these bands don't play to a lot of people when they tour here, they keep finding the means to do it, so something must be working. When Sonata first toured here as a headliner, didn't Glen says this was a stretch? Maybe so, but they, and a host of others, keep coming back.
Depsite obvious difficulties, let's hope this trend continues, because the music is just too damn good.
And that's the problem. Exposure. Most 40-somethings don't have the time nor the inclination to seek out new music. I stumbled into this scene by pure luck. I was a prog snob from the '70s, (I'm 51) had just about given up on new music. But then I heard songs from Operation Mindcrime on Z-Rock circa 1990, liked that, heard Dream Theater, and then came the internet and internet rock stations, and the rest is history. A whole world of music hardly known to anyone at all in the States.
While these bands don't play to a lot of people when they tour here, they keep finding the means to do it, so something must be working. When Sonata first toured here as a headliner, didn't Glen says this was a stretch? Maybe so, but they, and a host of others, keep coming back.
Depsite obvious difficulties, let's hope this trend continues, because the music is just too damn good.
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
Fair enough.
Right now, Rock is dead. It won't stay dead. These things always change. It's not like 10 years from now, 20 years from now, and 30 years from now people will all be listening to the latest incarnations of Jay Z and Christina Aguilera. The history of music shows that these things always change, and what is popular now, will eventually lose that popularity.
Similar threads
- Locked
