Touring Discussion (part 2)

[Jasonic]

I didnt say the tour would draw, but it would be a great show. I bet there would be more peopel at the bar just to be at the bar then to watch bands.

Oh, I know. I wasn't implying that you were suggesting that.
I agree it would be a good package, but would draw from the same 100 people in any given town.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

The death, thrash, folk, and extreme bands are smart. It seems who ever is putting those touring packages together knows what they are doing. They are tossing 4 or 5 bands on together who wouldnt draw huge on thier own but with those bands in that genre altogether really helps sell the package. Look at the current Overkill / Forbidden tour or the Pagan Fest or the Kataklysm tour a while back with Keep of Kalisiem and Eluevite and Dying Fetus I think. They remind me of tiny touring fest.

It seems when the power metal acts tour here it is just them and 4 different style of acts which usually dont go well along musiclly with the headliner. Like when Sonata had The Agonist, Edguy had a bunch of metalcorish bands on different tuors. Sure this may bring in a couple younger kids but we rarely see a power metal package tour. I wonder if there was something like3 or 4 quality power metal acts on a US tour if the draw would be slightly better than when they tour with 4 bands not in thier genre.

>This guy's face when he realizes Edguy, Overkill, and like all power metal and thrash-ish bands have the same booking agent.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Do the Euro bands make more money playing in Europe just because it's close to home? I guess I don't know the cost in playing overseas...

Yes. I'm pretty sure I said this in another thread moons ago, but Euro bands by and large with the exception of a handful do not care about breaking huge in the US. That's why they do these headlining tours in the first place instead of pushing for like Rockstar Mayehm or Ozzfest when they tour the US. They'd rather make 1,000-2,000 a night plus a another grand or so on merch sales per night than not make anything whatsoever on a huge lineup that would give them exposure and help them longterm. Why? Age is a factor. Alot of these bands are older. When they started at 14/15 in Europe they made their sacrifices and that's why they're huge over there and why should they at 30, 40, 50(?!!) have to do it again?

Another factor is alot of these bands have European labels and European management with not a whole lot of capability to break a band in the US. For example, if you compare Nuclear Blast Europe's power in Europe to Nuclear Blast USA's power in the States, it's not even close. NBUSA overall is weak in marketshare compared to Century Media and the like (why do you think In Flames left NBUSA when they started to really generate success here?), but NB Europe dominates. It's easily the most powerful label in Europe for metal. Thus, Euro bands don't have the capacity sometimes to get where they need to be in the US even if they wanted to to gain massive popularity.

At the end of the day though, I seriously think it's "grass is always greener syndrome." I know Europeans who HATE European bands and only listen to Lamb Of God/Machine Head/Pantera etc. Bands like As I Lay Dying, Lamb Of God, Five Finger Death Punch, that command so much success here aren't so big in the EU. Rammstein, Volbeat, Nightwish, In Flames, even Hammerfall and Edguy in some territories, etc outdraw them bigtime.THEY are THEIR "underground" bands. So yeah, I think alot of this general sentiment of "HOW COME WE GET STUCK WITH THIS CRAPOLA WHILE THEY GET THE GOOD STUFFFF" is just nonsense to beginwith. If Edguy had a gold record in the US, I'm sure most of you guys would be sick of them too. Dragonforce, who was once huge with the power metal crowd but completely fell out with it after they themselves, got a gold record (or came close to it) in the US is a perfect example of that.

 

[Diabolik]

>This guy's face when he realizes Edguy, Overkill, and like all power metal and thrash-ish bands have the same booking agent.

thanks Lars.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

doubtful. You forget how many of the punk shows I have been to taping them and stuff. Didnt realize this was a competion. I was just stating that you claim to know so much about current live shows and turnouts but never seem to go to any shows.

 

[Jasonic]

If Edguy had a gold record in the US, I'm sure most of you guys would be sick of them too. Dragonforce, who was once huge with the power metal crowd but completely fell out with it after they themselves, got a gold record (or came close to it) in the US is a perfect example of that.

I am actually 100% the complete opposite of what you stated, with the EDGUY and DRAGONFORCE examples.

I am sick of EDGUY because beginning with HELLFIRE CLUB, I feel they lost what musically made them special to begin with.

I have no issues with DRAGONFORCE, as I think ULTRA BEATDOWN is a ton better than INHUMAN RAMPAGE (which I thought had a lot of filler).

Regardless, I do overall agree that for the majority of the underground, they abandon a band when they reach a certain level of popularity.

 

[Jasonic]

You have been waiting to use this for weeks!

 

[Jasonic]

This is my all-time fav B&B segment:

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Fair enough.

Right now, Rock is dead. It won't stay dead. These things always change. It's not like 10 years from now, 20 years from now, and 30 years from now people will all be listening to the latest incarnations of Jay Z and Christina Aguilera. The history of music shows that these things always change, and what is popular now, will eventually lose that popularity.

No offense, and seriously, I really do mean no offense, but I think you're seriously deluding yourself dude. You're correct in that trends change for sure, but on what basis do you have to assert that rock is dead? Maybe we can edit that statement to read "rock you particularly like" is dead, but when I look at the charts these days there's an awful lot of rock and its variations. In fact, did Dream Theater and Maiden NOOOT have top 10-charting records for their last respective releases? So again, I think you're severely letting your personal tastes and feelings get in the way here. Maybe you'd like to see Wolves In The Throne Room one day get that gold record (haahaha ), but that doesn't mean rock is dead man!

Let's face it, it's not like every so often one of the major labels takes a chance on a European Power Metal band, gives them a massive push here in the states, and watches helplessly as they fail miserably. How do we know what teenagers will find cheesy? They certainly flocked to DragonForce in massive numbers, and that band was as cheesy as Manowar after a weekend long Velveeta bender.

Dragonforce was massively successful though for Roadrunner!

I think bands (and genres) who are outside the current norm, whatever that current norm may be, have to force themselves in through the door. It's important to recognize, that at any given time, the record companies have a great deal of money invested in the status quo. Look at it this way... if tomorrow Hip Hop was over, in much the same way Metal was over in the early 90s, record companies would lose all the money they're contractually obligated to pay out for future records, that wouldn't sell the way they had projected they would. Consequently, they don't want things to change... it threatens their future quarterly projections and calls into question shareholder value. So why sign an Angra or an Edguy? If they flop, you lose your money. If they break huge and the industry shifts, you lose the money you had projected from the future sales of the artists currently in your stable (who would no longer be in vogue).

Major labels (and by major, I mean Warner, Sony, etc) aren't signing anyone new with how badly the music industry is doing. Why should they take the risk when it's a veritable guarantee that it will flop 90% of the time? It's just like the movie industry and video game industry. Do you think Capcom is going to shell out a multi-million dollar investment on an original IP that will only sell 80,000 copies in one week, or do you think they will shell out the same investment on Marvel Vs Capcom 3, a guaranteed hit? You tell me. It's business and that's how it works. It's ugly and not fun, but that's how it works.

As a side note, I think we'll see a revival in Rock and Metal. I say this for two reasons. One, things are cyclical. Two, things aren't great in the country. When people are angry or scare or frustrated, art tends to reflect that.

I really don't get how rock died. There were always rock bands in the charts and doing really well since its inception. We even have games like Rock Band and Guitar Hero that sell in the MILLIONS. Sorry, but just because the stuff you like doesn't sell (guess what, the majority of the beardo-crusty sludge nonsense or the raw black metal that I love doesn't sell either) doesn't mean rock as a whole is dead.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I am actually 100% the complete opposite of what you stated, with the EDGUY and DRAGONFORCE examples.

I am sick of EDGUY because beginning with HELLFIRE CLUB, I feel they lost what musically made them special to begin with.

I have no issues with DRAGONFORCE, as I think ULTRA BEATDOWN is a ton better than INHUMAN RAMPAGE (which I thought had a lot of filler).

Regardless, I do overall agree that for the majority of the underground, they abandon a band when they reach a certain level of popularity.

But you're the exception that proves the rule then. Not to mention, you probably only like Dragonforce's new material in the wake of all the power metal fans hating them just to be a typical tr00 contrarianist right?

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Also Zod, since you seem to be always comparing the state of Pop to the state of metal in the US versus in Europe; have you HEARD Europop? Did you realize that a good chunk of our Pop music is written by Europeans?

 

[General Zod]

No offense, and seriously, I really do mean no offense, but I think you're seriously deluding yourself dude.

That's you trying not to offend? Couldn't you simply say you disagree with me? Is it really necessary to suggest that I'm "seriously deluding myself"? Regardless...

Here's a list of performers at the recent American Music Awards...

Black Eyed Peas
Taylor Swift
Rihanna
Miley Cyrus
Justin Bieber
Katy Perry
Christina Aguilera
Kid Rock
Carlos Santana
Backstreet Boys
Sean Combs
Ne-Yo
Ke$ha
Bon Jovi
Pink
Usher
Enrique Iglesias w/Pitbull

Where's the current Rock act among those performers, that would indicate Rock is alive and well? Bon Jovi has been around since the early 80s and Santana since the 60s. I guess you could argue for Kid Rock. However, he seems to be marketing his music to the Country crowd these days.

Here's a Link to the current Billboard Top 20:

http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100#/charts/billboard-200?tag=relcharts

What percentage of those of those acts would you qualify as current Rock acts?

Maybe we can edit that statement to read "rock you particularly like" is dead, but when I look at the charts these days there's an awful lot of rock and its variations.

Such an edit would have no validity, as I don't like Rock. So I'm not looking at this from the perspective of which Rock bands I like. I'm simply looking at what I see in popular culture and attempting to frame it in a historical perspective.

In fact, did Dream Theater and Maiden NOOOT have top 10-charting records for their last respective releases?

This is your evidence that Rock is alive and well? For starters, I'd qualify neither as "Rock". However, even if we agree to put them under the broader umbrella of "Rock", you're evidence for Rock's vibrant existence is a couple of bands that have been around since the 80s?

Dragonforce was massively successful though for Roadrunner!

That's why I used them as an example. However, this isn't a case of a major throwing* their weight behind a Power Metal band, it's a matter of catching lightning in a bottle, based on the success of a video game. And to the point I was ultimately trying to make, which spoke to the OP's question; it's not that Power Metal is innately un-hip, it's that kids aren't being exposed to it.

 

[General Zod]

Also Zod, since you seem to be always comparing the state of Pop to the state of metal in the US versus in Europe; have you HEARD Europop? Did you realize that a good chunk of our Pop music is written by Europeans?

You've lost me here. I'm not sure what comparisons you're referring to. However, I wouldn't presume to know who is writing what in the world of Pop, be it American or European.

 

[TychoCelchu]

Here's an example: Swedish songwriter Max Martin:

(from http://www.musicbyday.com/max-martin/877/)

Max Martin has written a lot of the biggest pop hits of the last 15 years. Check out this list of some of his biggest hits:

Backstreet Boys - “Quit Playing Games With My Heart” (#2 single in US)
Backstreet Boys - “Everbody (Backstreets Back)” (#4)
Backstreet Boys - “Larger Than Life” (#25)
Backstreet Boys - “I Want It That Way” (#6)
Backstreet Boys - “Show Me The Meaning Of Being Lonely” (#6)
Backstreet Boys - “Shape Of My Heart” (#9)

NSync - “I Want You Back” (#13)
NSync - “Tearing Up My Heart” (#59)
NSync - “It’s Gonna Be Me” (#1)

Britney Spears - “Baby One More Time” (#1)
Britney Spears - “You Drive Me Crazy” (#10)
Britney Spears - “Oops I Did It Again” (#9)
Britney Spears - “Stronger” (#11)
Britney Spears - “Lucky” (#23)
Britney Spears - “3″ (#1)

Kelly Clarkson - “Since U Been Gone” (#2)
Kelly Clarkson - “Behind These Hazel Eyes” (#6)
Kelly Clarkson - “My Life Would Suck Without You” (#1)

Katy Perry - “I Kissed A Girl” (#1)
Katy Perry - “Hot N Cold” (#3)
Katy Perry - “California Gurls” (#1)
Katy Perry - “Teenage Dream” (#1)

Celine Dion - “That’s the Way It Is” (#6)

Pink - “Raise Your Glass” (#10)
Pink - “So What” (#1)
Pink - “Please Don’t Leave Me” (#17)

Usher - “DJ Got Us Fallin’ In Love” (#4)

Taio Cruz - “Dynamite” (#1)

He’s also written songs for Bon Jovi, Cindi Lauper, Bryan Adams, Five, Westlife, Def Leppard, Daughtry, Avril Lavigne, & Adam Lambert.

Some bio info on Max Martin at http://top40.about.com/od/artistsdk/p/maxmartin.htm

List of songwriting and co-songwriting credits at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin_production_discography

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Here's a list of performers at the recent American Music Awards...

Black Eyed Peas
Taylor Swift
Rihanna
Miley Cyrus
Justin Bieber
Katy Perry
Christina Aguilera
Kid Rock
Carlos Santana
Backstreet Boys
Sean Combs
Ne-Yo
Ke
Bon Jovi
Pink
Usher
Enrique Iglesias w/Pitbull

Where's the current Rock act among those performers, that would indicate Rock is alive and well? Bon Jovi has been around since the early 80s and Santana since the 60s. I guess you could argue for Kid Rock. However, he seems to be marketing his music to the Country crowd these days.

lol Don't care. Don't care because it's not really a list that correlates to anything objective. It's just a bunch of people who decided to broadcast this award show and nominate feature these artists. But that being said, Kid rock, Bon Jovi, and Santana are all "rock" and it's not like anyone on that list is "new."

Here's a Link to the current Billboard Top 20:

http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100#/charts/billboard-200?tag=relcharts

What percentage of those of those acts would you qualify as current Rock acts?

This is a poor example. Most record companies aren't putting out new releases right now because Christmas albums and re-issues dominate the holidays (which is why Dark Side Of the Moon and Cowboys From Hell to name a few, are in the charts this week). You can even see that in the top ten at least 4 or 5 of those are Christmas albums. There aren't really any new albums whatsoever here. They're almost all re-issues or greatest hits, or albums that came out last week that are still in the charts.

Such an edit would have no validity, as I don't like Rock. So I'm not looking at this from the perspective of which Rock bands I like. I'm simply looking at what I see in popular culture and attempting to frame it in a historical perspective.

You used the phrase "rock is dead." I'm going by what you've said buddy.

This is your evidence that Rock is alive and well? For starters, I'd qualify neither as "Rock". However, even if we agree to put them under the broader umbrella of "Rock", you're evidence for Rock's vibrant existence is a couple of bands that have been around since the 80s?

Again, going by YOUR vernacular here. For all intents and purposes, I utilized "rock" as an umbrella term with metal going in underneath. And who cares if they've been around since the 80's or not? They're still equally relevant to enough people if they are selling records.

The fact is this: You look at the charts and see a few pop acts that you're full-well familiarized with and say "rock is dead" just because you can't spot anyone familiar on there that you like. Ultimately though it's a shallow claim from a dude who's deluding himself. (By the way, for someone who claims to be thick skinned and enjoys passionate debates, you sure got offended by that even though it's really not at all that offensive to begin with...) There are tons and tons of rock (metal, hardcore, punk whatever...) albums that make it in there every week as well. Like even for example, this week:

(from the Hard music chart, not the main chart, but still significant!).

2 DAY TO REMEMBER – WHAT SEPARATES ME FROM YOU
This week: 22,148
Cume: 80,388

18 AFTER THE BURIAL – IN DREAMS
This week: 4,048 (debut)


20 UNDEROATH – O (DISAMBIGUATION)
This week: 3,946
Cume: 32,450


21 ALL THAT REMAINS – FOR WE ARE MANY
This week: 3,861
Cume: 65,420

30 METALLICA – LIVE AT GRIMEY’S
This week: 3,026 (debut)


36 CHARIOT – CHARIOT: LONG LIVE
This week: 2,589 (debut)


51 TWISTED SISTER – TWISTED CHRISTMAS
This week: 1,941
Cume: 116,674


60 CRADLE OF FILTH – DARKLY, DARKLY, VENUS AVERSA
This week: 1,762
Cume: 10,792


64 MALMSTEEN*YNGWIE – RELENTLESS
This week: 1,579 (debut)



75 PANTERA – COWBOYS FROM HELL
This week: 1,306
Cume: 1,595,500


100 DEFTONES – DIAMOND EYES
This week: 1,127
Cume: 176,597

 

[skyrefuge]

Here's a list of performers at the recent American Music Awards...

ha, funny, I was going to bring up the AMAs too. The example I always use in these "state of rock music" discussions is the 2000 AMAs (or maybe Grammys). During the performances, I don't think I saw a single guitar on stage for the entire show. Everything was a singing/dancing act and there was no attempt to even pretend that musicians were playing live music.

I see that as the nadir for rock in the mainstream, and since that point, it has been on the upswing. In recent award shows, there would be guitars on stage for nearly every artist.

I had assumed that that upswing was still continuing, but I just checked the videos for Ke$ha, Rhianna, and Katy Perry, expecting to see a guitar in at least one of their performances, but came up empty. So, maybe we're back in a downswing again. Still, if rock is "dead", I think it's a lot less dead than it was 10 years ago.

By the way, in this context, I use "rock" to refer to a Kingdom in music taxonomy, where "metal" is a Phylum beneath "rock". I assume AS was using it the same way.

Last, to support the "majors aren't taking any risks" idea, here are this year's Grammy nominations for this category. See if you can spot any rock'n'roll rebels younger than 40 in this list!

17. Best Hard Rock Performance:
A Looking In View - Alice In Chains
Let Me Hear You Scream - Ozzy Osbourne
Black Rain - Soundgarden
Between The Lines - Stone Temple Pilots
New Fang - Them Crooked Vultures

18. Best Metal Performance:
El Dorado - Iron Maiden
Let The Guilt Go - Korn
In Your Words - Lamb Of God
Sudden Death - Megadeth
World Painted Blood - Slayer

The Grammy's dropped the "Best Polka Album" a couple years ago, presumably because everyone they knew making polka albums was getting old and dying. At this rate, hard rock and metal might only have a few years left themselves!

Neil

 

[AeonicSlumber]

You've lost me here. I'm not sure what comparisons you're referring to. However, I wouldn't presume to know who is writing what in the world of Pop, be it American or European.

You seem to constantly talk about how Pop music dominates American culture at the cost of metal losing popularity, implying that this isn't the case in Europe no? Have you heard Europop? Have you seen Eurovision? Do you realize that alot of American pop songs are written by Europeans? I'm not trying to be rhetorical, I'm actually asking out of curiosity.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

ha, funny, I was going to bring up the AMAs too. The example I always use in these "state of rock music" discussions is the 2000 AMAs (or maybe Grammys). During the performances, I don't think I saw a single guitar on stage for the entire show. Everything was a singing/dancing act and there was no attempt to even pretend that musicians were playing live music.

I see that as the nadir for rock in the mainstream, and since that point, it has been on the upswing. In recent award shows, there would be guitars on stage for nearly every artist.

I had assumed that that upswing was still continuing, but I just checked the videos for Ke, Rhianna, and Katy Perry, expecting to see a guitar in at least one of their performances, but came up empty. So, maybe we're back in a downswing again. Still, if rock is "dead", I think it's a lot less dead than it was 10 years ago.

By the way, in this context, I use "rock" to refer to a Kingdom in music taxonomy, where "metal" is a Phylum beneath "rock". I assume AS was using it the same way.

Last, to support the "majors aren't taking any risks" idea, here are this year's Grammy nominations for this category. See if you can spot any rock'n'roll rebels younger than 40 in this list!

Firstly, Ke$ha totally uses guitars on her debut CD. It's actually one of my favorite albums of this year.



Note the badass Faith No More-ish riff!


Secondly, award shows are not barometers for what sells and never were. They (the networks, producers of the show, etc) are selling a program to a specific audience. Like I just mentioned, Christmas albums do HUGE right now, but I don't see them influenced in the Grammys or the AMAs.

 

[Magius]

Fair enough.

Right now, Rock is dead. It won't stay dead. These things always change. It's not like 10 years from now, 20 years from now, and 30 years from now people will all be listening to the latest incarnations of Jay Z and Christina Aguilera. The history of music shows that these things always change, and what is popular now, will eventually lose that popularity.

I disagree. Aquilera and Jay Z are the latest incarnations of Madonna and MC Hammer. In 20 years there will be new versions of the same thing.

I would say what is popular within "Rock" changes, and it's possible that Rock will swing back towards Hard Rock and Metal. However, other mainstream musical (Pop, Rap, Country) forms haven't changed much, and are unlikely to do so.

 

[euleria]

...award shows are not barometers for what sells and never were. They (the networks, producers of the show, etc) are selling a program to a specific audience.

Amen. Pull up the nominees/winners of the Grammy's from back in the golden days of metal (however you interpret that), and look for any evidence whatsoever that metal was popular in the USA. You will find none.