Triggers when tracking drums

[digitaldeath]

Hey guys, lately I've been tracking drums in conjunction with ddrum triggers.
Anyone else here have any experience with this?
Even when playing live I find that my snare often triggers my kick (my snare's naturally frickin' loud!). Is there any way to reduce mis-triggering in a studio environment?
I'm thinking of ditching my drum rack as I'm guessing the vibrations throughout the rack certainly don't help (I have triggers on the kick, snare and toms). Anyone got any other suggestions?

 

[::XeS::]

Work with the trigger's gain and decay...I think it works good

 

[digitaldeath]

Funny thing is that my module (Roland TD-3) only really allows me to adjust its sensitivity (which I couldn't adjust to complete satisfaction), that's about it. If I need to invest in a better drum module then I'd be willing to splash out for one - any suggestions. I really only need the module for its MIDI output!

 

[musickey]

What kind of triggers are you using?

 

[digitaldeath]

I am using Ddrum DDTKIT Pro triggers on all drums.

http://www.thomann.de/ie/ddrum_triggerset.htm

 

[Uladyne]

You can try physically isolating the triggers from each other the best you can if you havent already done so. If you're getting false kick triggers from snare hits, try moving the kick trigger to the furthest point on the kick from the snare. On a right handed kit this would normally be at around 4 o'clock or so on the kick viewing it from the drum throne. Also throw a bit of tape or foam or something on the hoop between trigger's "clamp" and the hoop itself, to help isolate it further. Just put some sort of pad between the trigger and the drum itself, so the only real contact it has is against the head.

You can also add a ton of extra padding the kick if you aren't worried about the acoustic sound and won't be bothered too much by the change in feel. If the head resonates less, it will be less likely to resonate enough to false trigger when other drums are hit. I've seen some dudes have their bass drum COMPLETELY full of pillows and shit. The drum itself sounded like ass and felt like shit, but false triggers were a non issue. You shouldn't have to go to that extreme, though.

If you have single stands for the toms I'd go with those over the rack, as they'll more than likely provide better isolation between toms, as long as you don't have to mount them to the kick.

Lastly, there is a good chance your DAW has some sort of midi event filter, which should be able to filter out events below a certain velocity, like the more subtle false triggers.

 

[-Noodles-]

Maybe you could use less gain ? (if you are adding gain, then back it off?)

Sounds like you know what the problem is and know how to fix it though.. Just dampen stuff down and move the kit about so there's not resonations through the whole kit.

Let us know how it works out!

 

[digitaldeath]

Thanks for the tips guys, I'll be sure to try everything out. The unfortunate thing is that this is the same kit that I use live and so it's configured for maximum comfort while playing, hence the rack when it comes to touring etc. I'd rather not have to invest in more drum hardware (mount the toms on their own stands etc) as I could never get them into a comfortable playing position when I tried this in the past.
I'm also really not liking doing MIDI in PT 7.4 so I may have to consider the upgrade to PT8.
If anyone else has got any other suggestions, I'd love to hear them!

 

[::XeS::]

I use an Alesis dm5 module and it has different pots to adjust every input.

 

[006]

+1 to that, and lolz @ PT's less-than-desirable MIDI features.

~006

 

[musickey]

Never had a problem with miss trigger on the kick from the snare, but i use a cheap $20 pintech trigger on the kick and have never had a problem with em. and to tell you the truth they respond better than my ddrum red shots.

 

[digitaldeath]

Never had a problem with miss trigger on the kick from the snare, but i use a cheap $20 pintech trigger on the kick and have never had a problem with em. and to tell you the truth they respond better than my ddrum red shots.

Are the Pintechs the ones you essentially stick onto the drums? Not a fan of them at all! Drummers always seem to see them as a target for some reason!

 

[abbated]

I apologize if this question takes this thread on a different path, but I am about to track drums for an upcoming project and was wondering what the benefits are of using triggers vs close miking the drums. If you are to replace/blend samples with drumagog/aptrigga, which works with straight audio, what is the point of using triggers? I'm genuinely curious as I have plenty of mics to go around but do not have a set of triggers at the moment. If there is a benefit to using triggers I'll gladly purchase a set. I'm just wondering if there any definite opinions from those of you that have used both/either.

 

[musickey]

Are the Pintechs the ones you essentially stick onto the drums? Not a fan of them at all! Drummers always seem to see them as a target for some reason!

Yes they are but i only use the pentechs for kick. they just seem to respond better on the kick to me.

 

[musickey]

what is the point of using triggers? I'm genuinely curious as I have plenty of mics to go around but do not have a set of triggers at the moment. If there is a benefit to using triggers I'll gladly purchase a set. I'm just wondering if there any definite opinions from those of you that have used both/either.

They allow you to remove the bleed that might be cousing miss trigger from mics.

 

[digitaldeath]

I apologize if this question takes this thread on a different path, but I am about to track drums for an upcoming project and was wondering what the benefits are of using triggers vs close miking the drums. If you are to replace/blend samples with drumagog/aptrigga, which works with straight audio, what is the point of using triggers? I'm genuinely curious as I have plenty of mics to go around but do not have a set of triggers at the moment. If there is a benefit to using triggers I'll gladly purchase a set. I'm just wondering if there any definite opinions from those of you that have used both/either.

No worries! I highly suggest using triggers in conjunction with mics but there are a few things to consider first:

1. Do you have a module that you can plug the triggers into? If not, you can always plug the triggers into your preamps and sound replace the 'spikes' that the triggers will generate. But you'd be best to purchase a module that would then allow you to trigger some of the apps I list below via MIDI.

1. Do you have a VSTi drum program eg. Superior 2.0, Addictive Drums, EZDrummer etc.? If not, you'll have to factor in this cost. I'd personally wait for Steven Slate Drums 3.0 which is due for release by the end of the month.

2. The problem I raised above ie. making sure triggers don't mistrigger.

The advantages are numerous. For example, imagine if a band book into your home studio or whatever (I'm not talking pro-level here) and the drummer arrives with some piece of shit which you know will sound terrible recorded. Trigger it and use a VSTi - problem solved.
If a drummer comes along with a fantastic kit and you can achieve a great drum sound using just mics (Oz has a great thread on this which I believe is a sticky: read it!) having the option to trigger a VSTi is always nice. "Just in case" as I always like to say.
Having the options to both sound replace (using something like Drumagog or aptrigga2) and trigger a VSTi is always nice.
I'd suggest mic the kit as you normally would and read another sticky here (trigger FAQ) which will give you plenty of options when it comes to mixing etc.
Just my opinion.

 

[digitaldeath]

Yes they are but i only use the pentechs for kick. they just seem to respond better on the kick to me.

Thanks for the tip, I might try one on the kick. In a live situation I found that repositioning the kick trigger didn't always help (as there's always so much going on when on stage) however, at a 4 o'clock position as suggested above, I achieved a nice response from the trigger.
Any further suggestions for the toms considering that I am pretty much stuck with using my rack?
I'm beginning to think that I'd be best to just sound replace the toms altogether.

 

[abbated]

digitaldeath: Thanks for the elaboration; EXACTLY what I was hoping for in a response. When my band records we generally use an older "Frankenbeast" of a v-drum setup with both a TD-10 and a TD-8 brain running into Superior 2.0 in which I blend (basically replace) the sub-kick and sidestick snare with samples via aptrigga. This setup works great for us as my drummer is a "techno geek" like me and loves sitting at the console afterward to build his "Dream Set" -- And which I totally then rebuild my way after he has spent eleventy-million hours setting drums up his way. I just tell him that is sounds much different in the mix than soloed (F#$%n' Drummers!). Anyway, I'm exploring the trigger method for the EXACT point that you made regarding a drummer coming in with a set that sounds like couch pillows and kitchen pans. I'm gonna replace the hell out of EVERYTHING he hits! These guys live on my street and I hear them practice all the time and I honestly don't think the guy can tune a radio let alone his drum set. When I asked him if he'd be willing to play the v-drums he gave me the tired old... "V-drums are crap man. You couldn't pay me enough to play those things." Whatever, I have to respect that since I play guitar and all drums are the same to me cuz I SUCK at them. In any case I may just go ahead and get a set of triggers to make life easier for me in the long run... Oh, and I am counting the days til Slate 3.0 too.

I actually have read Oz's triggering FAQ but I'm gonna read it again right now! Thanks again for your input.

 

[digitaldeath]

Glad I could help, however I still try to record the overheads as best as I can and simply trigger the drums. If the drummer has crap cymbals it's going to sound terrible and from experience, drummers with crap kits tend to have crap cymbals and I'm always fearful of others using mine!

 

[xFkx]

Hmm, might resurect this thread. My recent trail with using a TD-3 module with a acoustic drums has proven to be a complete failurem, the lack of settings for decay and noisegate values are just such a construction flaw. Right now i've configured the whole thing with triggers straight into audio interface, and then aptrigga. Also keeping the old trusty DM5 as a back-up.

TD-3 SUX.