Using triggers, and morals....

[006]

Two things I wanted to see what other people think when asked about are using triggers and the morals behind sampling a drum.

A while back I had mentioned to some musician friends that I wanted to sample a friend's snare drum. They immediately became the moral police and bombarded me with questions. In the end of the "conversation" I realized they thought I meant something different, but they did raise some questions that I thought had some validity.

The mis-understanding was that they thought I was going to sample the friend's snare and use that on another project, but not to blend, but rather completely replace the original snare. I never completely replace anything except the kick, and if that can be avoided I try to. My argument was that even though it is my friend's snare, by the time I was done with it in any particular project, it won't sound like his snare anymore. I use samples for a particular reason, each drum has it's own qualities, and if a particular original source doesn't have these qualities then I will turn to samples to blend in with it to give me those qualities. I totally understand where they are coming from if I was using 100% replacement on the snare. Their argument was "why should that band get that snare sound when they don't own that snare?", to which I replied "then maybe we should trash the last recording I did for you guys, because that isn't his kick drum, toms, or snare drum." Which is true, I used Sneap's snare sample, a Decapitated kick sample, and the Chimaira tom samples. All with 50% or more (never 100%) blending. But, at the time, they obviously didn't care because it sounded killer.

I was curious if anyone else has ever thought about and moral issues with using samples, or more specifically taking samples of drums. Do you think it is wrong to sample something to blend in with another drum on another project? It is pretty funny that during their project they were more than happy to go through my library of kick samples to find the perfect one to use, yet when I wanted to sample a friend's snare to have in my library, it was "wrong".

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The other half of this post is regarding triggers. The friend in the above story that owns the snare that I would like to sample made this argument when we recorded the last time. He preferred not to use a trigger on any of his drums because he felt it altered the sound too much. I argued that it was a very insignificant amount and wouldn't make an audible difference, to be honest. The point of using triggers on this particular project was for editing purposes only, we weren't going to be replacing the toms or snare, however the option would obviously be there if needed. He used moongels and duct tape as examples of something touching the drum head and altering the sound. I explained that those methods are very drastic and used for a specific purpose, to eliminate ringing, whereas the triggers are designed to touch the heads very lightly and not alter the sound but rather come in contact just enough for the piezos to pickup the hits.

I was wondering if anyone else has run into this problem with drummers, and what you said to make them shut up. Lol. Basically, what can *I* say next time to make them just relax about the triggers?

~e.a

 

[AStacy2]

I've been able to completely avoid almost all of these problems. If a band asks me to record them, I'm upfront with them about how I do things and I show them examples of my work. If they like my work and still want me to record them and have their CD come of similar or better quality, then they have to agree to my terms. If not, it's not worth the extra time that it would take me to work on their CD. Let your work speak for itself.

 

[fatalforce]

I know exactly what your talking about. Maybe just don't even tell them. If they say anything about the sound changing just say you "EQ-ed" the snare track. The average musician may not be able to call your bluff. It's their art but your work. If they really throw a hissy fit then let them know that you can't guarantee the quality of your work.

I like the fact that I can layer my drum tracks and get unique sounds. So I totally agree with you.

 

[punkrockacademyfightsong]

I'd have to agree with the hex here: the band chooses for you, your sound and therefore your methods to achieve it. next time i would tell them to shut up and cooperate (in decent language) or to do it themselves!

 

[Metaltastic]

On a more basic level, I think it's pretty pathetic that the drummer thinks it's "his" snare sound, cuz unless he built the fucker by himself and made his own heads, that's a whopping two variables, both mass produced, that come together; hardly a unique thing by any means. He should get over himself and realize it's a percussive noise, and worry more about creating his own identity through his playing, not the sound of his drum. It's like me feeling like my creativity was stolen for someone sampling me simplistically chugging a power chord.

And to add, I let my friend borrow my stack to record his band's album, and I didn't care, cuz the "me" is in my hands, not my gear (well, not enough in my gear to piss me off, anyway).

 

[Manicompression]

I would use the consistency angle, let them know that without a HUGE budget there is hardly any way for you to garuntee that the kit is going to sound the same from session to session, ie:changing heads every song, room temperature and on and on. Using the samples to blend keeps a healthy amount of variables in check, and besides tell them that 9 out of 10 of there favorite albums are using sample support (anything Andy, Colin,....). Finally you could tell them that they can perfectly reproduce the recorded drum sounds on the album in a live setting if they embraced sampling and were willing to make a minor investment of time and money (how many sound guys have the time to find sweet spots on every drum). However if they arent playing metal or heavy rock of some sort, exploiting inconsistency and minor imperfection is great thus making the whole thing null and void.

 

[006]

Haha, exactly one of the points I made. One of the arguments about the "it being his drum" shit was that it is the Mapex Black Panther, and while, yes, it is a limited edition snare drum, it's not "his" by any means. If you want to get technical, it's Mapex's shit. However, the argument for that could be that Mapex did, in fact, make it for sale to people, so it's a different story, but...it's still not something HE made. The argument to THAT, was that it's his NOW because he has played it his way for so long that it is broken in to him...as in, kinda like a guitar neck that is broken in...it was broken in by a certain person, and there is no way to duplicate it, so it's his own. Or something...I kinda think that is a flakey response, but it was an argument, nonetheless.

And they did try to throw that at me as well, the "I'm sure you don't give out amp settings or recording tips", I was like "actually, I do that all the time...because even though they are my settings, they'll never sound the same...the basics may be there, but it'll never be like when I do it."

Mostly I think what it comes down to is the divide between musicians and engineers. Engineers know more shit. Plain and simple

~e.a

 

[Grave Desire]

If I ever run into a problem with drummers not wanting to use triggers...I simply tell them I use it for gating purposes, which in the end will make "their" snare sound better than not using it. If they don't understand I explain the whole using the trigger to...trigger the gate which allows all of the attack of the snare to come through. Usually that will sell them.

Then I always trigger the drum anyways..just group the snare and the trigger together and hide the trigger track...if they get suspicious and ask to solo..I can solo the track but only the original snare shows it's solo'd. Worked everytime so far.

 

[LSD-Studio]

If I ever run into a problem with drummers not wanting to use triggers...I simply tell them I use it for gating purposes, which in the end will make "their" snare sound better than not using it. If they don't understand I explain the whole using the trigger to...trigger the gate which allows all of the attack of the snare to come through. Usually that will sell them.

same here

 

[jesterroot4]

when it comes to using samples to replace all the hits, i will normally spend about an hour or so on my own sampling THAT PERSONS kit, moving mics,changing angles, adding ambient mics etc and try and get a really good sounding sample of their own snare or tom. i will then put on drumagog and replace most the kit with like 50% of the perfect samples.

this way, they keep there exact kit but the hits sound much better, in tune and accurate.

i think this sounds better than replacing them with a totally different snare or tom sound. especially if you have a load of bleed from the original sounds in the OH's. it just sounds more natural, but tight

 

[006]

That is one way to do it, jester, but the way I use it is in case their snare is lacking in some areas. For instance, a project I had a while back, the snare the guy had was just digusting. It had the perfect amount of beef to it, but basically NO attack...nothing, nada, zip, zilch. It was all beef, I can't even describe the sound. So what I did was use the trigger track and loaded apTrigga up with some nice piccolo snare samples that I have. Blended about 40/60 (original/sample, respectively) and everything was solved. I ended up EQ'in the sample track a little differently, basically notched out the areas of the piccolo that I liked most about the original snare. So in the end, the only thing I was getting from the piccolo was the attack, nothing more. All the beef came from the original snare.

That's mostly what I'll use samples for, just to augment the original drum and get some qualities into it that weren't there before. That's pretty much the reason to use samples to begin with...along with the no bleed thing, etc. I have also sampled the drummer's actual kit before, but in this particular project it would have been pointless because the snare was lacking so much.

~e.a

 

[nwright]

I've been able to completely avoid almost all of these problems. If a band asks me to record them, I'm upfront with them about how I do things and I show them examples of my work. If they like my work and still want me to record them and have their CD come of similar or better quality, then they have to agree to my terms. If not, it's not worth the extra time that it would take me to work on their CD. Let your work speak for itself.

I think this is the best answer of all I've read, especially if you are more known through word of mouth. That's been my experience, anyway.

I try to keep everything up front...payment, methods, etc. I don't go into detail, but I do ask/tell a band that I try to get the best sounding mix/master I can get with my knowledge and the tools at my disposal. So, if they ever have any problems with that, then I'm not the guy.

And, I've found the problems dudes have isn't always about triggers and things, just AE in general. It amazes me how many dudes always try to tell me they don't want a "processed sound" and that compression, EQ and limiting are stuff they don't want.

 

[Radd]

Mostly I think what it comes down to is the divide between musicians and engineers. Engineers know more shit. Plain and simple

~e.a

I think this is what it all comes down to. (depending on the engineer)

Through this forum, being on the outside looking in, it seems that most bands don't know/understand what it takes to get their sound (live or envisioned) recorded.

Everyone wants the best sound possible, a professional million dollar sound and unless they have a ton of cash and you both have a ton of time, then that sound is unlikely to happen without taking short cuts like replacing drums with samples or even using something like revalver or pod or impulses. They just don't realize how time consumingly difficult it is to capture exactly what they hear/want, particularly drums.

I said before that there needs to be a good article written about this for musicians to read before going into a studio to help them understand, to educate them about it.

I can understand where they're coming from with them feeling like they have their own sound and not wanting to give it away because they want to be/stay "original" and not end up having copy cats of them or worse, stealing away their possible future "fame and fortune" but like you said, the sound is really in the musicians themselves and how "original" can they really be these days, you know? It's probably better for everyone to just let that stuff go and share the goodness and help each other out and who knows, the karma might be good for them in return.

Like I said, I'm on the outside looking in and this forum has opened my eyes some and this is how I see it.

Printing out this thread and threads like it and posting them on your studio door or wall could be a start, a step in the right direction and open up the conversation and maybe the mind.

 

[everybody's x]

I have found that honest, unprocessed, playback goes a hell of a long way. In other words they've heard what I can do, they hear what they sound like. They recognize discrepancies between the two.
Try saying, "OK, I wont use any samples, now look at this wave file. See where every time you start playing fast the snare disappears because you are tickling it like a little bitch instead of beating the fuck out of it like it owes you money?"
"See that?"
"OK, I need you to hit every snare hit consistently, hard and distinct. Every kick drum hard and distinct. We will do a million takes until you get it right."

or I can sample your kit.

your call

 

[Radd]

I have found that honest, unprocessed, playback goes a hell of a long way. In other words they've heard what I can do, they hear what they sound like. They recognize discrepancies between the two.
Try saying, "OK, I wont use any samples, now look at this wave file. See where every time you start playing fast the snare disappears because you are tickling it like a little bitch instead of beating the fuck out of it like it owes you money?"
"See that?"
"OK, I need you to hit every snare hit consistently, hard and distinct. Every kick drum hard and distinct. We will do a million takes until you get it right."

or I can sample your kit.

your call

I love it!

 

[006]

I said before that there needs to be a good article written about this for musicians to read before going into a studio to help them understand, to educate them about it.

I can write one right now.

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.:: Tips For Going Into the Studio ::.
->A Guide for Musicians<-

Let the engineer do his job.

~e.a

 

[006]

...and besides tell them that 9 out of 10 of there favorite albums are using sample support (anything Andy, Colin,....).

I know all of this, and I have explained that. They are all metal-heads. I told them that probably 98% of ALL of their favorite metal bands have used samples in some way or another on their albums. There is almost no such thing as a natural kit when it comes to metal. At the bare minimum the kick drum is at least triggered. Very, very, very few modern metal albums have a natural kit...it's just the nature of the music and what it demands when it comes to the albums. Metal requires a super-clear kit and tons of separation, it's really hard to do without triggering and using samples to cut out a lot of the bleed. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's very few and far between that you come across it.

It's basically unavoidable if they want the end result to be what they want it to be.

~e.a

 

[Radd]

I can write one right now.

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.:: Tips For Going Into the Studio ::.
->A Guide for Musicians<-

Let the engineer do his job.

~e.a

Yeah, right?

Tell them to research this stuff on their own and they'll see what you're talking about?

 

[Metaltastic]

Hell, on the enhanced CD part of Borknagar's "Epic," they show studio footage, and Asgeir Mickelson's kit is like a big floating torso - all these cymbals and toms, and the only things on the floor under the rack are a pair of those kick triggers with the sensor parallel to the floor and the beater starting at 90 degrees from the floor and going down to the sensor.

 

[colonel kurtz]

as far as i'm concerned, there's only one moral code in the studio:

make the client happy

beyond that, nothing matters