Updates from the Studio.

[dawnofadreamx97]

Whats up everyone,

I've got some new pics from the studio , we are recording our album right now, I am 75% done with my drum tracks, I have 2 more songs to go.... The Yamaha Oak Customs are really coming out incredible. We did 2 weeks worth of preproduction on JUST drum tones , and the results are truely amazing. We have tried different mics, placement, Heads, Cymbals, snares, multiple room mics, and even moved the kit around the room to yield the best results. I found a clear head really does it for these drums in the studio, I went with an Aquarian Response 2 (2 ply clear). I switched cymbals every few songs, and got some great different flavors in there ! No triggers were on the kit...

We used 16 mics total and recorded with protools HD3 @ 96k. We went through tons of incredible outboard gear, Neve 1073's,Neve 1066, 2 Neve33122a, Focusrite Red, dbx 160 compression, ADM 780 pre's, Avalon tube VT 747 EQ for the overheads, empirical labs distressor el8 on the CAD room mic, all other kinds of great stuff. Below are Mic specs, Pics of the kit in one of the Live rooms, and a clip of some stuff I was jamming on last night for fun.

I ended up using 3 different snares , My Yamaha 5 1/2 x 14 oak custom , my Yamaha maple custom absolute 7x14, and a Pearl Sensitone 5x14 off a Pearl session kit that just sounded killer! the Oak drums really have alot of character, Can't wait for everything to be done. The clip below is totally unmixed! and is just a cut and paste of some different drum sections, and me playing a new riff over it ( I play and write guitar stuff actually before being a drummer haha)... so please keep that in mind, I just wanted to show you guys something !

-Mics Used-
2)Sennheiser Md421 (toms)
2) Vintage Sennheiser Md421 (toms)
1) sm57 (snare top)
1) beta 57 (snare bottom)
2) Akg 414 (spaced pair overheads) They are not placed properly in these pics, we just resetup the kit..
2) Shure sm81 Xy (rear overheads over my head behind kit)
2) Shure Beta 52 kick mics
1) CAD condensor mic set in omnidirectional for (rear room mic)
1) Oktava ribbon mic ( right room mic)
1) Vintage Shure sm33 ribbon mic (left room mic)
1) Neumann TLM 103 (center room mic)
1) Akg c1000 room mic for some things

http://www.sicksdeep.com/oakdemo.mp3

 

[chadsxe]

Sounds fucking killer.......very cool.....that was some killer gear you were running it through so it better sound great.......

 

[dawnofadreamx97]

Thanks man ! appreciate it....

 

[Glenn Fricker]

You've definitley got the right idea with the mic & kit setup. Flat toms rule.

Try an evans muting ring on the snare... If the clip isn't mixed, that's ok, but the toms sound a little thin, you'll definitely want to check phase. Also, avoid boosting EQ at all costs when mixing.

-0z-

 

[metalkingdom]

If the clip isn't mixed, that's ok, but the toms sound a little thin, you'll definitely want to check phase. Also, avoid boosting EQ at all costs when mixing.
-0z-

Why would the toms be out of phase? The pics say otherwise. You're gonna boost eq on the drums no matter what.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Why would the toms be out of phase? The pics say otherwise. You're gonna boost eq on the drums no matter what.

My ears are telling me otherwise. The pics don't mean anything comared to what comes out of the speakers. With a massive oak kit like that, we should be hearing a nice full 'rolling thunder' from the toms. Unfortunatley, that's not the case. My first guess is that either the room mics or the overheads are working against the close mics. Hence, the "check phase" suggestion. Besides, why would you not check phase? Like it's bad advice?

As for boosting EQ on drums... I haven't used a boosting EQ on a drumset in 4 years. Sorry, but it's just a bad idea. But don't take my word for it.... go ask George Massenburg.

-0z-

 

[Suicide_As_Alibi]

I think it's generally recommended to use EQ's to cut things out and then bring out the important bits by raising the volume rather than boosting certain parts, because drastic EQ boosts sound really unnatural. Boosting bits on an EQ is like trying to add somthing that isn't there, but lowering parts is removing what is there already - raising the volume after you've removed unwanted bits sounds more natural (to my amatuer ears at least).

Steve

 

[Glenn Fricker]

I think it's generally recommended to use EQ's to cut things out and then bring out the important bits by raising the volume rather than boosting certain parts, because drastic EQ boosts sound really unnatural. Boosting bits on an EQ is like trying to add somthing that isn't there, but lowering parts is removing what is there already - raising the volume after you've removed unwanted bits sounds more natural

Exactly.

 

[dawnofadreamx97]

Cool , .... I will definatly check the phase again on the toms.... Like I said there hasn't been any eq or compression done to the snare , overheads, or toms, there is eq on the kicks though.... Any Other suggestions ? The toms sound MASSIVE here on our monitors, I wonder what it could be ?

thanks!

ps - when checking phase on the toms what in perticular should I look for ? should I look at the waveforms on the tracks to see if somethings looks wacky ?

 

[metalkingdom]

Exactly.

Exactly for what they teach you in school. 'Cuts' are recommended because boosting an eq can introduce noise into your signal, not because they create an "unnatural" sound like you said. You can cut and cut all you want, but you will most definitely do some boosting - if you know how to get a good drum sound.

As for the phase stuff, ever hear of the 3:1 rule? The pics are worth a thousand words if you're talking about phase. Maybe a bad cable could make phase issues, but not the mics in this case. I would direct my suspicions elsewhere. Like, say, bad eq to tape... or crappy mic placement...or, most likely, the 421's are on "s" instead of "m".

Last time I checked, George Massenburg has produced ZERO metal.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Cool , .... I will definatly check the phase again on the toms.... Like I said there hasn't been any eq or compression done to the snare , overheads, or toms, there is eq on the kicks though.... Any Other suggestions ? The toms sound MASSIVE here on our monitors, I wonder what it could be ?

thanks!

The thing is, not all of them sound out...... this is where it gets tricky. Loop a fill where the drummer runs across all of them, and then solo each individually against the overheads. That should help you get a handle on things.

BTW, did you have any HPF engaged on the 421s?

-0z-

 

[Glenn Fricker]

As for the phase stuff, ever hear of the 3:1 rule? The pics are worth a thousand words if you're talking about phase. Maybe a bad cable could make phase issues, but not the mics in this case. I would direct my suspicions elsewhere. Like, say, bad eq to tape... or crappy mic placement...or, most likely, the 421's are on "s" instead of "m".

Last time I checked, George Massenburg has produced ZERO metal.

Look, I have no interest in getting into a flame war here. You've got some great points, especially about the 421's mode setting. And yes, I've heard of the 3:1 rule. I'm just going by my own experience. When the toms sound thin, the first thing I do is check them against the overheads. Not really bad advice, is it? Then again, I never EQ to tape. I also never use boosting EQ, and I most definitley know how to get a good drum sound.
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217656



And as for Mr. Massenburg, you're right, he hasn't produced any metal. But he does make beautiful sounding records. The same principles apply.

 

[metalkingdom]

Cool , .... I will definatly check the phase again on the toms.... Like I said there hasn't been any eq or compression done to the snare , overheads, or toms, there is eq on the kicks though.... Any Other suggestions ? The toms sound MASSIVE here on our monitors, I wonder what it could be ?

thanks!

ps - when checking phase on the toms what in perticular should I look for ? should I look at the waveforms on the tracks to see if somethings looks wacky ?

Well, like I said, I seriously doubt if your toms are outta phase. During a section with tom rolls, switch to mono. If they disappear, then they are out of phase.

 

[metalkingdom]

Yes, but the same principles apply.

wrong.

 

[dawnofadreamx97]

Exactly for what they teach you in school. 'Cuts' are recommended because boosting an eq can introduce noise into your signal, not because they create an "unnatural" sound like you said. You can cut and cut all you want, but you will most definitely do some boosting - if you know how to get a good drum sound.

As for the phase stuff, ever hear of the 3:1 rule? The pics are worth a thousand words if you're talking about phase. Maybe a bad cable could make phase issues, but not the mics in this case. I would direct my suspicions elsewhere. Like, say, bad eq to tape... or crappy mic placement...or, most likely, the 421's are on "s" instead of "m".

Last time I checked, George Massenburg has produced ZERO metal.

the 421's are definatly Set to M , we double and triple checkd that.... I will check the cables , and do a recall again.

I dont think the HPF were engaged for the 421s , do you mean on the mic pre itself?

Im at the studio now Im going to go through and listen In mono to a drum fill and check it for phase.... Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Glenn Fricker]

see above edit...here

 

[~BURNY~]

Well, like I said, I seriously doubt if your toms are outta phase. During a section with tom rolls, switch to mono. If they disappear, then they are out of phase.

Sounds like you are talking about inverted polarity here, not phase issues.

 

[metalkingdom]

Sounds like you are talking about inverted polarity here, not phase issues.

No, I'm talking about phase issues. Who the fuck says "inverted polarity" in the studio?

 

[xmidihcx]

these drums sound KILLER! do you guys rent time at a studio or is this your own studio? i would love to get some time there some day i am totally pumped about hearing the new sicks deep. New York don't fuck around guys! I just wanna throw in my 2 cent about the toms thing. . . i thing that your kit has plenty of treble, not all of which you are going to need to use in the final mixdown. but it will be useful when all you gotta do is cut some mids to acheive a crystal clear high end. i would totally reccomend checking for phase issues as oz said, because he obviously knows his stuff, but also you might just wanna try boosting the overall level of the toms by 3-6db, and maybe cut some treble out?, i'm sure you guys are going to make these drums sound phenomenal for this record. ROCK THE FUCK ON!

 

[metalkingdom]

Look, I have no interest in getting into a flame war here. You've got some great points, especially about the 421's mode setting. And yes, I've heard of the 3:1 rule. I'm just going by my own experience. When the toms sound thin, the first thing I do is check them against the overheads. Not really bad advice, is it? Then again, I never EQ to tape. I also never use boosting EQ, and I most definitley know how to get a good drum sound.
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217656



And as for Mr. Massenburg, you're right, he hasn't produced any metal. But he does make beautiful sounding records. The same principles apply.

I don't know how the overheads will have anything to do with the toms sounding thin. It doesn't make sense.

Most of the best engineers/producers eq to tape, and boost eq's all the time.

And just for the record, your drums sound "ok". Try boosting sometime.