US = Rome

I think there's one major difference between us and Rome... when all is said and done, and all the anti-American rhetoric has fallen to a slight murmur, the rest of the civilized world won't let us fall. We saw evidence of this just last week when the central banks of Europe, Japan and Australia stepped in to help stabilize economic markets after concerns over U.S. mortgages caused ripples. Unlike Rome, the rest of the world can't afford to allow us to fall. It would send the entire planet into a decade long tail spin.

As for military spending, I think the graph and the statistics tell only half the story. The reason other nations don't spend what we spend on military, is because they don't have to. No one is going to attack England, Germany, Japan, France, etc. on our watch. In essence, our military spending, while admittedly insane and unfortunate, keeps the world in check.

Zod
 
Yeh, the military that is keeping the world in check, that China is paying for through loans then upping there miltary budget from the interest gained. You guys are fucked. :Smug:
The world is clearly always going to be at conflict, an unfortunate aspect of the human condition. My point is, there hasn't been a world war in the last 60 years.

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that we've done things well or that we don't have large problems to deal with. However, I think the idea that America will simply disappear from the world stage, as Rome did, is a bit of an overstatement.

Zod
 
so maybe the US should put one trillion Yen into US banks and poof, we're even.

my first point was a simplified Zod response.

In short, if we go down, we're taking the world with us.
 
I said this in another thread somewhere. I'm no expert but it seems the Chinese economy has a vested interest in avoiding the decline of the dollar, considering it's what their banks are based on.
Zod hit the nail on the head too, in that, although we spend WAAAAAYYY too much on our military, it's not like the European nations even need to. So it's way out of proportion. Further, when 1 fighter jet costs $100,000,000 and an Abrams M1A1 tank costs $60,000,000, that shit tends to add up. What other nation state has military technology even remotely close to ours? A battalion of M1A1s could take over pretty much any country in the world (except Iraq :loco:)
 
The main issue with the Chinese, as people and as a nation, is they don't spend money. I have a friend that is a pretty high level exec at Morgan Stanley who mentioned that while America is a nation of debt, China is one of gathering. Literally people sleep with money under their pillows and don't reinvest in their own economy, hence their need to rely on other countries for export ...
 
I said this in another thread somewhere. I'm no expert but it seems the Chinese economy has a vested interest in avoiding the decline of the dollar, considering it's what their banks are based on.
Zod hit the nail on the head too, in that, although we spend WAAAAAYYY too much on our military, it's not like the European nations even need to. So it's way out of proportion. Further, when 1 fighter jet costs $100,000,000 and an Abrams M1A1 tank costs $60,000,000, that shit tends to add up. What other nation state has military technology even remotely close to ours? A battalion of M1A1s could take over pretty much any country in the world (except Iraq :loco:)

Pretty much any of the greater industrial nations do, just not on the same scale.
 
I said this in another thread somewhere. I'm no expert but it seems the Chinese economy has a vested interest in avoiding the decline of the dollar, considering it's what their banks are based on.
Zod hit the nail on the head too, in that, although we spend WAAAAAYYY too much on our military, it's not like the European nations even need to. So it's way out of proportion. Further, when 1 fighter jet costs $100,000,000 and an Abrams M1A1 tank costs $60,000,000, that shit tends to add up. What other nation state has military technology even remotely close to ours? A battalion of M1A1s could take over pretty much any country in the world (except Iraq :loco:)

Actually our Leopard regularly beats all other tanks in tests and stuff around the globe, but noone with technology to match yours has numbers to do the same and the other way around.
 
so maybe the US should put one trillion Yen into US banks and poof, we're even.
Yen = Japanese :loco:

I think there's one major difference between us and Rome... when all is said and done, and all the anti-American rhetoric has fallen to a slight murmur, the rest of the civilized world won't let us fall. We saw evidence of this just last week when the central banks of Europe, Japan and Australia stepped in to help stabilize economic markets after concerns over U.S. mortgages caused ripples.
I'd say that's a bit of an understatement, when the largest bank in France is questioned how much money a large investment is worth, and they say "lol, I dunno" because the money vaporized.
Aug. 9 (Bloomberg) -- BNP Paribas SA, France's biggest bank, halted withdrawals from three investment funds because it couldn't ``fairly'' value their holdings after U.S. subprime mortgage losses roiled credit markets.

The funds had about 1.6 billion euros ($2.2 billion) of assets on Aug. 7, after declining 20 percent in less than two weeks, spokesman Jonathan Mullen said today. The bank will stop calculating a net asset value for the funds, which have about a third of their money in subprime securities rated AA or higher.

BNP's announcement sent its shares down as much as 5.5 percent, pulled the benchmark European stock index lower by more than 2 percent, and helped U.S. Treasuries rally for the first time in four days. Investors are shunning bonds backed by home loans after late mortgage payments by borrowers with poor credit histories rose to the highest since 2002.

``The complete evaporation of liquidity in certain market segments of the U.S. securitization market has made it impossible to value certain assets fairly regardless of their quality or credit rating,'' BNP Paribas said in a statement.

The French bank joins Bear Stearns Cos. and Union Investment Management GmbH in stopping fund redemptions. Dutch investment bank NIBC Holding NV said today that it lost at least 137 million euros on U.S. subprime investments this year.
All this funmoney market injecting going on right now is like putting a bandaid on cancer. I forget who I stole that line from, but it fits.

What happens when you get too far into credit card debt here? Snap the Visa in half, but keep the account open. :guh:
 
I think there's one major difference between us and Rome... when all is said and done, and all the anti-American rhetoric has fallen to a slight murmur, the rest of the civilized world won't let us fall. We saw evidence of this just last week when the central banks of Europe, Japan and Australia stepped in to help stabilize economic markets after concerns over U.S. mortgages caused ripples. Unlike Rome, the rest of the world can't afford to allow us to fall. It would send the entire planet into a decade long tail spin.

This is a very good point. Obviously the world and the way it functions has changed over the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years since the Roman empire fell, but really the world has drastically changed since even WWII. We live in such an intertwined global society and global economy that anything that happens in one place impacts the rest of the world pretty much instantly. Thus, it is indeed in the vested interest of the rest of the first world and those of the third world who want to be on our good side because we give them aide to keep the US stable, because in many real ways, the US is the anchor of the world, and it would take years for the world to recover from such a titanic collapse unless it is extremely, extremely gradual.

The main issue with the Chinese, as people and as a nation, is they don't spend money. I have a friend that is a pretty high level exec at Morgan Stanley who mentioned that while America is a nation of debt, China is one of gathering. Literally people sleep with money under their pillows and don't reinvest in their own economy, hence their need to rely on other countries for export ...

Well I think that has more to do with circumstantial realities and embedded traits found within the Chinese culture. If you look at many people who were alive during the Great Depression and the start of the second World War, you would see that many of them are very stringent with their money as well, and some don't even trust banks, so they keep their money under their mattresses. I think that once the Chinese economy really steps up, in a generation or two, they won't have that problem any more.
 
LOL at Americans keeping money in their pillowcases. Everyone knows no one in America actually has any money.
Hey wait, I just calculated my net worth if I sold my house, paid off my school loans and shit, and lived on the street: $112,000. So, yeah, I guess I would need a pillowcase or two. However, the vast majority of 'Mericans wouldn't.
 
Hooray, my net worth is actually in the positive these days, around $25,000.

Credit card debt to be zero in a few months, car loan is much less than what I could sell it for (and might), everything else is in the bank, music room, or the stock market. :kickass:
 
Uncle Sam, Your Banker Will See You Now

By Paul Craig Roberts

08/08/07 "ICH" --- - Early this morning China let the idiots in Washington, and on Wall Street, know that it has them by the short hairs. Two senior spokesmen for the Chinese government observed that China’s considerable holdings of US dollars and Treasury bonds “contributes a great deal to maintaining the position of the dollar as a reserve currency.”

Should the US proceed with sanctions intended to cause the Chinese currency to appreciate, “the Chinese central bank will be forced to sell dollars, which might lead to a mass depreciation of the dollar.”

If Western financial markets are sufficiently intelligent to comprehend the message, US interest rates will rise regardless of any further action by China. At this point, China does not need to sell a single bond. In an instant, China has made it clear that US interest rates depend on China, not on the Federal Reserve.

The precarious position of the US dollar as reserve currency has been thoroughly ignored and denied. The delusion that the US is “the world’s sole superpower,” whose currency is desirable regardless of its excess supply, reflects American hubris, not reality. This hubris is so extreme that only 6 weeks ago McKinsey Global Institute published a study that concluded that even a doubling of the US current account deficit to $1.6 trillion would pose no problem.

Strategic thinkers, if any remain who have not been purged by neocons, will quickly conclude that China’s power over the value of the dollar and US interest rates also gives China power over US foreign policy. The US was able to attack Afghanistan and Iraq only because China provided the largest part of the financing for Bush’s wars.

If China ceased to buy US Treasuries, Bush’s wars would end. The savings rate of US consumers is essentially zero, and several million are afflicted with mortgages that they cannot afford. With Bush’s budget in deficit and with no room in the US consumer’s budget for a tax increase, Bush’s wars can only be financed by foreigners.

No country on earth, except for Israel, supports the Bush regimes’ desire to attack Iran. It is China’s decision whether it calls in the US ambassador, and delivers the message that there will be no attack on Iran or further war unless the US is prepared to buy back $900 billion in US Treasury bonds and other dollar assets.

The US, of course, has no foreign reserves with which to make the purchase. The impact of such a large sale on US interest rates would wreck the US economy and effectively end Bush’s war-making capability. Moreover, other governments would likely follow the Chinese lead, as the main support for the US dollar has been China’s willingness to accumulate them. If the largest holder dumped the dollar, other countries would dump dollars, too.

The value and purchasing power of the US dollar would fall. When hard-pressed Americans went to Wal-Mart to make their purchases, the new prices would make them think they had wandered into Nieman Marcus. Americans would not be able to maintain their current living standard.

Simultaneously, Americans would be hit either with tax increases in order to close a budget deficit that foreigners will no longer finance or with large cuts in income security programs. The only other source of budgetary finance would be for the government to print money to pay its bills. In this event, Americans would experience inflation in addition to higher prices from dollar devaluation.

This is a grim outlook. We got in this position because our leaders are ignorant fools. So are our economists, many of whom are paid shills for some interest group. So are our corporate leaders whose greed gave China power over the US by offshoring the US production of goods and services to China. It was the corporate fat cats who turned US Gross Domestic Product into Chinese imports, and it was the “free trade, free market economists” who egged it on.

How did a people as stupid as Americans get so full of hubris?

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.
:err:
 
Just wait till you buy a house dude! You'll be so far in debt, you'll want to kill yourself.
 
A battalion of M1A1s could take over pretty much any country in the world (except Iraq :loco:)

Not the case, American technology is shithouse!
take a comparison of a German Panzer tank to a sherman, im even being fair here because i could compare the sherman to a tiger but thats just not even remotley fair. The only reason they won then is numbers and the only reason you would now.
 
No "mate", the reason why we would now is that military is run like a military. The majority of other nations militaries are run like Baptist church summer youth programs. How long did it take for us to defeat the Iraq army in the Gulf War?!?! :lol: