Viking Martial Arts
- Thread starter KILL TULLY
- Start date
I may be overly-dick-like at the moment, but seriously 'Traditional Martial Arts' really are a crock of shit, it's like LARPing being able to actually fight.
I would love an actual discussion on the topic though, so somone defend TMA.
I would love an actual discussion on the topic though, so somone defend TMA.
MajestikMøøse
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Thanatopsis123
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Reign in Acai
Of Elephant and Man
KILL TULLY said:
Holy fuck what's the highest grade of education you have completed?
Consensus*
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Opposite*
Colegate?!?!??! WTF?!?! Collegiate you fool!
First off most MMA fighters are trained in one specific discipline you twit. These disciplines vary from Brazilian Ju-Jitsu to, Greco Roman, Muy Thai, Judo and all the way down the line. So when you say MMA, you are referring to fighters who hold brown and black belts in the various arts in which you are bashing you dumb fucking sack of bostonian tea piss. What is your personal fighting experience, other than logging on to sherdog.com and taking opinion as gospel?!? I really sincerely wish to know which art forms you have taken up.
P.S How many western style "boxers" have you seen succeeding in UFC, PrideFC, or Pancrase? Name one fucking pure boxer! I dare ye. Or as you would say. I dear ye.
Reign in Acai said:Holy fuck what's the highest grade of education you have completed?
Consensus*
Community*
Beating*
Opposite*
Colegate?!?!??! WTF?!?! Collegiate you fool!
First off most MMA fighters are trained in one specific discipline you twit. These disciplines vary from Brazilian Ju-Jitsu to, Greco Roman, Muy Thai, Judo and all the way down the line. So when you say MMA, you are referring to fighters who hold brown and black belts in the various arts in which you are bashing you dumb fucking sack of bostonian tea piss. What is your personal fighting experience, other than logging on to sherdog.com and taking opinion as gospel?!? I really sincerely wish to know which art forms you have taken up.
P.S How many western style "boxers" have you seen succeeding in UFC, PrideFC, or Pancrase? Name one fucking pure boxer! I dare ye. Or as you would say. I dear ye.
I didn't bash Ju-Jitsu, Greco Roman, Muay Thai, OR Judo, not once. They are all very good art's of course. Also, obviously MIXED MARTIAL ARTISTS are trained in more then one art, and this is why they win. That is the whole point. 'TRADITIONAL' (which is a stupid word for it, because Judo came before Aikido, but Aikido is considered TMA and Judo is not) martial artists are a waste of space and are basicly LARPing.
My point is that Bullshit passes for Martial-Arts in the world, and many 'grandmasters' won't step into the ring because they know they will get annihilated, yet they hide behind the claim that they are 'to deadly for the ring', which is ridiculous.
Also, I never said a pure Boxer will step into the ring and come out on top in MMA tourny's, I said that somone who has trained Western Boxing + Greco-Roman wrestling will almost surely beat any 'TMA' person they come across.
When the hell did I bash Judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, etc.? All are fine fighting systems.
It sounds like your saying the same thing as me, but somone trying to argue against me?
Are you seriously saying a Kung-Fu fighter will beat an MMA player in a fight?
I'm not bashing ANYTHING that is worth training in and not covered in bullshit. When a school starts talking about chi this and soft-style that, and 'we train to not fight', not sparring, not training with aliveness, and trying to pass of there art as the most deadly thing sense bullets: that is what I'm argueing against.
So saying I'm bashing Judo players for instance, is retarded.
Dimmak is a perfect example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs8mblcgTsk&search=dim mak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk&search=dimmak
People seriously buy into that shit.
Reign in Acai
Of Elephant and Man
KILL TULLY said:
Most martial arts are complete garbage so don't bother, ie: 99.99999999% of Kung Fu, TKD, Karate, Aikido, etc. are all worthless piles of dog shit.
Explain this quote?!? I suppose you assumed that we would presume that Judo, MT, BJJ, fall under the .000000001% eh? You honestly sound like a kid who has trendwhored the new MMA craze that is hitting the globe. You read a couple online posts down at sherdog, bought himself a copy of MMA Weekly, and now thinks he's a fucking expert without even once being in a street fight. Well not unless you count those limp wristed fisticuffs you exchanged with your denim jacket wearing ass partner, as you strapped on an extra large bullet belt and rode each other like two dino bravo's. You're so off the mark sometimes it's unfuckingbelievable.
Oh and to answer your question, yes I agree alot of fighting styles are shit. Tae Kwon Don't comes to mind.
Oh and another thing MMA means Mixed Martial Arts, as in bouts containing two fighters from two different disciplines. It doesn't mean that every fighter is well versed in multiple arts, those certain fighters are.
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
Were it not for Erik's latest Jewloving Sea Monster, this would be the greatest thread in weeks.
Reign in Acai said:
I fought MMA at Marcio-Simas gym in Winterpark Florida from (EDIT: woops) 2003-2005, BJJ/Muay Thai base with Vale Tudo rules. How about yourself?
Obviously what I said was an exageration, I don't see how you could have missed that. I was pointing out that those arts (which I was specific about) only have point-sparring (or no sparring), claim that they do not train to fight and this is why they don't compete, don't train with resisting partners, and so on. Thats why I listed those, and the 'etc' meant more 'arts' along those lines, like systema, ninjutsu, krav maga, and on.
Judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and others obviously don't fall into those catagories as Judo has Randori, Muay Thai obviously has a great ruleset, and BJJ have fully-resistant alive training.
I'm far from a "Bandwagon jumper'' with the MMA trend, by the way. Though that has absolutly nothing to do with the argument.
Reign in Acai
Of Elephant and Man
K I'm in full agreement then and big slow applause to you for spell checking your latest post. My personal martial arts experience is minimal, 21 months studying Okinawa-Te under Shihan Gordon Doversola. If you have heard of him, I'll send you a care package. Currently on a hiatus due to lack of time. 30 dollars for a 60 minute private isn't worth if you can't be consistent.
If the system does not offer full contact sparring it's a sham. Plain and simple. You'de be better off, picking up hardcore dancing.
If the system does not offer full contact sparring it's a sham. Plain and simple. You'de be better off, picking up hardcore dancing.
KILL TULLY said:
Actually, that's NOT true. The only reason they get a bad rep is because they are now AMERICANIZED (i.e. have been watered down) and most americans want a fast food style martial arts education (i.e. served in one sitting, in under 5 minutes). People don't understand that this training takes YEARS to master, if not decades. In their 'traditional' form, they were good. Not anymore.
I practice under this guy. Well, technically not him, but a student of his. I can't afford it at the moment, but I follow his instructions and teachings. So yes, I am a a kung-fu practioner and what you say, my friend, is horseshit.
EVERYTHING that is taught out there, is up to the student. Not the style. A dedicated Akido practitioner will WIPE THE FLOOR with many of those MMA guys. Ever sparred one that has been a practioner for 30 years? I have. They aren't to be fucked around with.
I will give credence to the idea that there are BETTER and more EFFECTIVE styles out there, however. I just happen to think Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu (what I practice) is a good one.
Oh, also, I'm a huge fan of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I've taken a LOT from it. Know who popularized THAT style of kung-fu? Bruce Lee. Hmmm...
Reign in Acai said:
I agree unless the art clearly states it isn't intended to actually be a combat art, except by pop-culture. The only thing I can think of at the moment that fits into that is Capoeira, which seems reallyreally fun, haha. Also, Iaido, Kenjutsu, and other 'live blade' fencing-kata MA's.
But I know you meant it the same way I meen it, I just felt like giving props to Capoeira for being cool and fully promoting the fact it is a game and not a lethal fighting art disguised as a dance, like people want to think.
Furious B said:
OK, so what are some students MMA records? Do you have videos of sparring?
Examples please. Why is Aikido never used in MMA then? Why is Aikido not used in Judo Randori, for example in the Olympics?
Yes, submission by arm bar, due to Aikido having zero ground game. Submission by flying-triangle-choke, and then submission due to strikes to the face and body.
EDIT: Having said that, I realize that many, if not most Aikido-ka don't practice Aikido in order to woop-ass.
Aikido is almost worthless against a resisting opponant, because almost all their training relies on complient Uke during randori.
Tomiki Aikido is the only style that is even remotely good do to having a competative aspect involving resistance.
You know who realized that Wing-Chun was mostly bullshit and basicly single-handedly started MMA with JKD? Bruce Lee.
Who said that somone trained one year in western boxing and wrestling could take on most TMA masters? Bruce Lee.
KILL TULLY said:
Actually, I don't so I can't offer that.
That was YOU personally that performed that?
Taking things to the ground is something that ALL martial arts should practice for and anticipate. In fact, fine, ground fighting is something every martial arts practitioner should know because it's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Know what I mean? But to say western style boxing is better than a kung-fu style? Come on man. Really what techniques are a western boxer implementing that are more advanced than what wing chun has to offer? Centerline Theory, Chi-Sau, and grounding are much more effective than anything I've learned from any boxer I've met.
Fair enough, I will retract my statements. So long as you can provide a link or quotes. I've read several biographies and many snippets online of Bruce Lee and not ONCE have I heard that. News to me.
Thanatopsis123
ç½é¬¼
Furious B said:
Actually I've read that almost all Americans that have gone to Asia to continue their martial arts have found that the opposite is true. They've been quite disappointed by martial arts in Asia.
Thanatopsis123 said:
I've heard the same, Asian martial arts, especially Kung-Fu, are ridiculously theatrical now. Just look at Wushu. It is a myth that Asian martial arts are powerfull, it is a fantasy that people want to believe.
Furious B said:
Yes, but it was at an Aikikia school who are notorious for there hippy-Aikido.
Yes, but Aikido really doesn't have much ground game. Saying an Aikidoka would destroy an MMA fighter in an MMA bout is sort of naive, in my opinion. It just wouldn't happen.
Over-complication does not meen better. Muay Thai is so effective due to it's simplicity, same goes for western boxing. All the theories may seem very effective, untill you get into a NHB fight and realize that all that goes right out the window. A wing-chun guy fighting in an MMA fight will end up looking just like a boxer, or getting his ass kicked. Simply because that is what works. Also, a wing-chun guy who has only studied wing-chun or a boxer who had only studdied boxing, would both loose easily to a grappler. This is why virtually EVERYONE studdies Brazillian Jiu Jitsu now.
I was just searching, hard to find the quotes so no need to disregard your thinking, YET! Haha.
Jeet-Kun-Do is obviously a pre-curser to MMA though, the whole theory behind it.
Thanatopsis123 said:
KILL TULLY said:
I haven't. I've heard that most people are impressed with the athleticism of the practitioners of many of the Asian martial arts, despite the pragmatic ineffective of the styles (northern shaolin, wushu, ect.). I haven't heard a ton on the practical effectiveness of Asian martial arts with the exception of wing chun, southern praying mantis, and muay thai.
And Tully, come on dude, are you really even going to lump Wing Chun in with Wushu? Yes, they're both TYPES of kung-fu, but to compare those two is to compare an 18-wheeler with a Geo Metro, they are THAT far apart.
You're misinterpreting ADVANCED with COMPLICATION. I'm not talking about complication, but what I'm talking about is advanced. Centerline theory is advanced, but the idea is simplistic. Get it? Like, all your spots that are going to put you down or KILL YOU (TULLY) in a NO HOLDS BARRED fight are along this medial line. The extremities are expendable in comparison with the trachea, intestines, groin, liver, eyes, nasal septum, and sternum/heart, all of which lie there. And dude, the concept is completely applicable, straight forward, and built for fighting. This is not fluffy chi-gung shit.
Furthermore, in a Bruce Lee biography I had read, as observed BY OTHERS, Bruce Lee’s striking techniques in regards to sparring, were very often in the vein of Wing Chun. Bruce Lee ALSO stated that most fights could be effectively won with a flurry of strict centerline defense and offense of centerline punches.
Bullshit. Show videos, statistics, quotes from martial artists, anything to support this. People get this misinterpretation that a fight is going to be smooth with the moves that they learn in any given martial art. Let’s take an example. From my understanding, in boxing, you have a few options to attacks:
1) parry
2) dodge
3) cover and absorb the blow
When a boxer parries a blow does it follow that it will work out the same everytime or is perfectly executed in application? That's why Bruce Lee advocated understanding the CONCEPT of moves, not just the movements as it were some mathematical equation where chest punch + bong-sau = deflection. It becomes messy. That DOES NOT mean that they are not effective. And I agree, the more simplistic moves are usually is the best. Have you ever actually seen wing chun moves or southern praying mantis parries? They are not these huge movements man. They are simple. They are direct. They are effective. They are POWERFUL!!! (lol)
That is so not true. The reason that "everyone" studies Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is because it is the most effective in ultimate fighting. Many of the matches do end up on the ground and the fights go for a long time. Why do they end up on the ground? It is FAR easier to wear your opponent down on the ground without expending nearly as much energy while standing up trying to dodge strikes, grapples, etc. But really, do you think if you practice a striking art and some unpracticed drunk at a bar is going to take you down to the ground? Read further:
I disagree and this is where I think a huge part of our disagreement lies along with your misunderstanding of wing chun and several other styles of kung-fu.
Jeet-Kun-Do essentially IS mixed martial arts. I just get the vibe from the martial arts community that MMA is already a pre-packaged concept like Brazilin Ju-Jitsu. In fact, I will contend that JKD is THE real MMA. Not in a sense like most people perceive it, like as a style, but as a philosophy. A major concept in the philosophy of JKD is to take what works and disregard what doesn’t as coined by Bruce Lee.
In that sense, I agree with you as traditional martial arts are not WHOLE as a system. Wing chun in and of itself is not whole just like western boxing, ju-jitsu, Greco-roman wrestling, etc. are not whole. The essential elements of fighting can be broken down into 3 basic parts (if you can find something outside this, by all means, point it out):
1) striking
2) grappling
3) ground fighting/wrestling
Many of the kung-fu systems fulfill # 1, but not the others. This is one reason I believe JKD is right, not because it is “Brazilian ju-jitsu,” which, in its roots a grappling art (the Gracie family has merely filled in their system with the above list, taking from other sources. Hello JKD!) That is why it is effective, NOT because it is “Brazilian ju-jitsu.” Wing Chun can sufficiently be used for a fight in MANY cases however because not ALL fights encompass 1 through 3. For # 1 though, it is VERY GOOD. Make sense?
Anyway, I had a lot more, but this is getting really long and I have a ton of homework to do. Much respect boys. I’m passionate about the subject and have put a lot of thought and practice into it, so I can go on and on. It’s a cool hobby.
p.s. I have yet to find EVEN ONE instance where Bruce Lee has bashed kung fu/wing chun (I have, however, read of him bashing STYLES as a whole, may we kindly differentiate) And just because I feel you are SO WRONG on saying wing chun is shit
p), here is another quote that you might find interesting:
Thanatopsis123
ç½é¬¼
Let's liven this thread up with a good ol' underground street fight!
http://www.break.com/index/downgoeskimbo.html
http://www.break.com/index/downgoeskimbo.html
"Jeet-Kun-Do is obviously a pre-curser to MMA though, the whole theory behind it."
When I said that I meant what you thought I was contesting, that JKD is MMA, basically.
In response to everything else: Videos of fights please.
Wing Chun Vs. Kyokushin Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk&search=wing chun vs
Is all I can find at the moment, I'll try to dig more up. Chain punches = don't work.
The problem with your argument is that it is based entirely on theory. Theoretic martial arts are all well and good, if they actually can hold up to real, controlled, documented, stress testing ie: NHB competition.
I have Lee quotes, but no sources, so I can't post them yet, hah. Also, I don't care much what Bruce Lee had to say, as there are plenty of people alive now that are just as good fighters and modern.
EDIT:
I love that fight. I bought it when it first came out PPV only, haha. Was a big event, as many people said that Kimbo would kick the crap out of an MMA fighter just because they saw the video where he knocks the eye out of his opponants skull. If they allowed knees, or a ground game, that fight would have been over instantly. Props to Gannon.
When I said that I meant what you thought I was contesting, that JKD is MMA, basically.
In response to everything else: Videos of fights please.
Wing Chun Vs. Kyokushin Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk&search=wing chun vs
Is all I can find at the moment, I'll try to dig more up. Chain punches = don't work.
The problem with your argument is that it is based entirely on theory. Theoretic martial arts are all well and good, if they actually can hold up to real, controlled, documented, stress testing ie: NHB competition.
I have Lee quotes, but no sources, so I can't post them yet, hah. Also, I don't care much what Bruce Lee had to say, as there are plenty of people alive now that are just as good fighters and modern.
EDIT:
Thanatopsis123 said:
I love that fight. I bought it when it first came out PPV only, haha. Was a big event, as many people said that Kimbo would kick the crap out of an MMA fighter just because they saw the video where he knocks the eye out of his opponants skull. If they allowed knees, or a ground game, that fight would have been over instantly. Props to Gannon.
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