We Disintegrate Cover - How's the tone?

[JBroll]

EDIT: Fixed URL

I know it's going to be hard as hell getting responses to this without (A) tits or (B) Steve coming in and telling us to post more, but here goes anyway.

Click here to watch We-Disintegrate---Tone-Check

It's only the first section, until right before the vocals come in, and pardon the open string noise (hadn't warmed up and I had to stick with the first takes I had). Two tracks (100 and 80) each side in the first part, an additional pair at 80 with less distortion in the second part (experimenting with blending lower-gain parts for clarity and 'snap'), and drums from a Guitar Pro MIDI and DFH.

I just yanked the transformer out of my SM57 and was comparing tone between a recording a few days old and one with the position and setting identical but without the transformer, and... Holy Fucking Cow Shit. Christ on a bicycle, it's night and day - it actually sounds like my amp does in the room (but quieter, goddamn headphones...), all the crunch and none of the honk from the 57. Anyway, now that the sound is more or less what it's supposed to be on disk, I thought I'd check things out over here before putting it on Sneap's forum (as I'm sure they'll tear my head off because I really haven't the faintest idea what I'm doing). All comments (constructive) would be helpful.

Jeff

 

[Seedawakener]

I thought it was a bit muddy. Though I probably have no idea of what im talking about because Im no toneexpert at all. Please dont hit me!

 

[JBroll]

Yeah, I did have to boost the bass before the transformer removal so the SM57's mid hump wouldn't make it sound thin in the low end, and as I said I didn't change tones or position (for comparison purposes I even marked where the mic stand clip hit the mic and didn't move the stand at all). I'll play around with repositioning it later.

Also, I've only seen the first part played as diads on the A and D strings and a pedal on the E but I wanted to see how it sounded with the altered note on the E string (3rd, 4th, 6th, and 7th frets, an octave down from the D string notes) and the pedal at the 5th fret on the B string, for the octave-down thickening effect. That may have made it a bit more lower-register-oriented than the record version.

Third, I have GOT to get that amp away from the wall - for space reasons I don't really have a choice as to where it goes, I had to L2 the thing because at the end I started getting feedback from the guitar and resonations from THE WHOLE FUCKING HOUSE, which obviously is a bit of a problem. It's an open-back combo, so I'm sure I'm getting tons of resonation from the wall behind the amp, and hopefully not having that extra bass will probably tighten and clear things up a bit.

Finally, I haven't done a bass track yet so when that's done I'll sort the guitar tone out better - I'm used to trying to get a full sound without a bassist so that may take care of the mud problem.

Thanks for listening, mate - anyone else?

Jeff

 

[JBroll]

I rerecorded it farther from the wall, with a Tube Screamer and a bit less gain, and then on a whim high-shelfed the fuck out of about 18khz. Maybe this'll be less muddy?

I'm not really going for the Nevermore tone, I've always envisioned the perfect metal tone as being like Heartwork but a little less overloading (as it can make other stuff hard to hear sometimes) so maybe keep that in mind if it sounds like it's hiding under a blanket.

Click here to watch JB---We-Disintegrate-2

EDIT: No, wait, I didn't high-shelf the fuck out of about 18hz - I did that in the wrong bloody project, so apart from a little low-mid compression (I shifted Sneap's C4 settings to go from 53-212Hz and lowered the amount of compression from 5 to 2.5) it's right out of the speakers - now all I have to do is make it not sound so distant.

Jeff

 

[the phish]

ok this second one is ALOT better. Nice job on the playing.

 

[JBroll]

Thanks - I had more time for the second one, the first one was really pressed because the family was home and they don't like the metal, so until I get enough battery acid...

I was surprised at how much I had to change my settings around on the amp because of the SM57 transformer - I just threw some other audio through that thing, and... goddamn, that thing is awful. For anyone considering doing it for a guitar cab micing application I could not recommend this thing enough - it sounds so much more like room sound, and the only thing that doesn't come through sparkly clean is the fizz, which I want to kill anyway so it works out great.

One thing I realized is that I don't use much gain at all - I always used to think that I was overdoing it with the preamp gain but when I see how hard it is to keep that sustain going when I don't have the feedback from the amp and the wall... I thought my attack was pretty hard too, but I didn't think it was to the extent that I could strum chords for moderate crunch and then turn around and get a thrash/early death sound by hitting it the way I normally do, I'm just worried now about fret buzz. The chord fade-out sounds so wimpy, I'm thinking that I may have to go out and buy a compressor for things like that.

All other parts ignored, does the feedback at the tail end of the first one beat the fading away and dying in the second one? I don't have a *real* piano recording setup so I need that to kinda 'mask' the electronic sound unless I can learn to play and record our piano within the next... two days.

Jeff

 

[DreamNeonBlack]

Second sounds alot better.

 

[Steve Smyth]

Hey JBroll,
Sounds pretty good man! Good drum machine programming! You got Van's fills in there pretty good man!
Not sure what you idd....pulled the transformer out of the 57?! How did you do that? Why did you do that? Have you tried close mic'ing a 57 on the cab, and putting an ambient mic ( AT3035 eg.) about 18 inches back fropm that? That's my mic technique ( and many others, from what I know) that I'm using for The EssenEss Project solo tones right now. Real soon, I will be dropping some samples up on the T.E.P. forum.

 

[JBroll]

I actually jacked that drum machine programming from a Guitar Pro file - exported it as a MIDI to Cubase and ran it through DFH. Fuck, I'm a lazyass.

As for the transformer getting yanked out of the SM57 - it's the 'TapeOp' mod everyone's talking about. Unscrew the bottom half off of an SM57 and clip the wires off, then unscrew the little screw near the tail end of the mic (where the XLR is - right above the little hole the XLR cable 'catches' in when you plug it in) and clip those wires too. Put the part you unscrewed and clipped (not the capsule - the bottom half of the body) in boiling for water for about 10 minutes - this will soften the glue holding the transformer in the body of the mic - and yank the gluey little fucker out (maybe save it as an outboard 'turn-things-to-middy-nonsense' preamp, I don't know), then rewire the capsule and XLR jack (+ pin gets wired to number 2 on the XLR, - goes to the other one that isn't grounded (soldered to a little plate on the side)) and screw the thing back together. It kills the mid hump, leaving it more open and full sounding (more high treble and bass, but somehow less 'fizz) and also cuts output by about 10db (but hey, what's digital for? Gotta love a free pad and hi-fi in the same mod). It sounds much more like my in-room sound (I had to cut a lot of bass out because the 57 didn't take all of it in, now I dial a sound in room and pretty much put it on disk) and also takes in less interference from my monitor, phones that may be ringing, the munchkin and his miscellaneous noisemaking, et cetera (oh, and did I mention less fizz?) - highly recommended, period. I'll send more information if needed, for anyone who's interested.

I'm close mic'ed on that one (too close, I think, will post a third with a little breathing room as has been recommended on the Sneap forum) but that 57 is the only mic I have, and being on a college student without a job budget, the only ambient mic I'd be able to get my hands on would be a Radio Shack PZM-knockoff and I'd have to redo the preamp on that entirely to make it sound like I want. I'd love to try it but I don't have the time for the job or the mod, or the money for a good ambient mic. I'm looking on eBay for another 57 to try the Nordstrom bit, while I'm at it maybe I'll look for a recommended ambience mic and see if I can get one for a decent price (less than $50, haha).

I'd love to get decent speakers in that amp - right now it's an everything-stock Crate XT120R at the highest level I can get it in a blue-hair suburban neighborhood (read: not high at all (read: 'knee-high to a quadruple amputee' kind of high)) and I'm looking for a G12T-75 or G12T-100 (I like those better than V30s) until I can find about two grand in a suitcase in a parking lot somewhere and get a good 5150 head, Avatar 412 cab, and someplace to record them with nice isolation and insulation. Going by the way those amps are vilified on most forums I go to, I'm surprised there hasn't been any "That sounds like shit - must be a Crate! Go get a real t00b amp, doofus!" stuff going around. I must say that I love that amp, well worth the time to figure out how to use it as a Crate and not something that should be a 5150 or Dual Rec. I'll have the whole song up at some point (as soon as I learn to play the piano and sing, I guess...) so after one more test (with the mic backed off the grille a bit) I'll have the whole thing put up pretty soon.

Thanks for the input (though I can't take credit for the drum fills... I'm shit with a drum machine), can't wait to hear those EssenEss clips.

Jeff

 

[JBroll]

Finally got around to finishing the rhythm section, at least - vocals and solos to come as soon as I can sing and work out what I want the solos to sound like.

Click here to watch We-Disintegrate---Final-Rhythm

Tone is the same as it was before, but now the TS doesn't have a dying battery (BIG difference) and the mic is backed off somewhat, so there was a little more 'breathing room' and I think that helped a whole lot.

Again, comments and suggestions more than appreciated, and thanks for listening to the stuff (those who listened... those who didn't, I'm coming for you...).

Jeff

 

[the phish]

i know absolute shit about recording and mixing, but i think you need some more treble in that mix. it still sounds slightly like the amp is behind a "screen".. i dont know how to describe it.

definite improvement over previous mixes, and as always, good playing!

 

[JBroll]

Thanks - problem could be what I'm going for, I'm more into the Heartwork tone than anything else, I must admit.

I should probably also cut out a couple of the tracks as I put six on there to cover up not playing them perfectly, that may reduce the 'clarity' of the mix. I read that Lamb Of God only tracked one guitar per side through three different amps on one of their albums, may end up reamping through both of the amp's channels and with different sounds here and there to experiment with it.

Oh, and keeping enough air for that chorus is hard as fuck, as is doing vocals into a 57 - anyone else want to try vocals? The official cover thread is going nowhere fast, so if you're bored...

Jeff

 

[the phish]

Well lamb of god has two guitarists, and they happen to be tight as fuck as well, so one track per side sounds great for them because it really does sound like both guitarists.

Also FYI, the one track per side thing was only done on Ashes of the Wake, listen to As the palaces burn and that album is much muddier because there were numerous tracks.

The only band that manages to remain amazingly fucking tight and clean through multiple tracks and multiple guitarists is nevermore. I have no idea how jeff and steve are such tight mofos.

 

[DreamNeonBlack]

Thanks - problem could be what I'm going for, I'm more into the Heartwork tone than anything else, I must admit.

I should probably also cut out a couple of the tracks as I put six on there to cover up not playing them perfectly, that may reduce the 'clarity' of the mix. I read that Lamb Of God only tracked one guitar per side through three different amps on one of their albums, may end up reamping through both of the amp's channels and with different sounds here and there to experiment with it.

Oh, and keeping enough air for that chorus is hard as fuck, as is doing vocals into a 57 - anyone else want to try vocals? The official cover thread is going nowhere fast, so if you're bored...

Jeff

Email me a copy of the song to DreamNeonBlack@aol.com

I'll give the vocals a go.

 

[LT1Z]

Hey JBroll,
Sounds pretty good man! Good drum machine programming! You got Van's fills in there pretty good man!
Not sure what you idd....pulled the transformer out of the 57?! How did you do that? Why did you do that? Have you tried close mic'ing a 57 on the cab, and putting an ambient mic ( AT3035 eg.) about 18 inches back fropm that? That's my mic technique ( and many others, from what I know) that I'm using for The EssenEss Project solo tones right now. Real soon, I will be dropping some samples up on the T.E.P. forum.

Yep I have had good results with a similar set up, only I use a MD-421 about a foot back along with the close miced 57

 

[JBroll]

How high do you typically mix the 3035 (or 421) along with the 57? I'd guess that the 57 would be most of the sound, but I'm not too well-versed in this sort of thing. Actually, I'm somewhat of an idiot when it comes to this kind of thing - I'm the highest bidder on a 3035 on eBay and it's just now occurring to me that I don't have a bloody thing that can phantom power it (just been running mics into my Sound Blaster mic input) and I may wind up paying more for either a USB interface that can use it or an external phantom power box than the actual mic. So much for the lunch-money budget.

Jeff

 

[Steve Smyth]

Hey JBroll,
I usually choose to mix the 57 up a little hotter than the 3035, to me it creates the right amount of ambience this way. I pan them out 50% on either side in the mix. Hope that helps!

 

[JBroll]

Awesome. Now all I need is to win this auction, find a phantom power box/phantom powered mixer within my budget, get a good stand for it, and somehow wiggle my way out of the first week of school so I can goof around with it a bit.

Jeff