What defines 'alternative' metal

[HamburgerBoy]

Black metal in 1988, just without the needless repetition and shit production:

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I made a lo-fi mutilation of that song and posted it on three forums claiming it to be an unknown demo, and no one doubted that it was black metal. The responses were all different though; on the BraveBoard I think I got LLN comparisons, on UltimateGuitar's metal board I got "mid 90s German black metal", and on 4chan's /mu/ I got something else.

A lot of black metal is really just a form of alternative metal that takes merges some of the weirder thrash of the 80s (Coroner, Living Death, Bulldozer, etc) with post-punk and noise rock. Even the first-wave stuff is heavily derived from it; just compare early Celtic Frost with Christian Death's Deathwish EP recorded in 1981. Or early Bathory taking pretty standard hardcore punk progessions and making people imagine they're tremolo-picked due to the recording quality. That isn't to say that a mix of all these non-metal influences didn't create something novel, but it's still just alternative metal.

 

[Mort Divine]

there is no such thing as "alternative metal"

 

[HamburgerBoy]

As a "real" sub-genre, sure, it's just a catch-all for bands that mix metal and non-metal elements. It's still a useful term though.

 

[Omni]

I made a lo-fi mutilation of that song and posted it on three forums claiming it to be an unknown demo, and no one doubted that it was black metal. The responses were all different though; on the BraveBoard I think I got LLN comparisons, on UltimateGuitar's metal board I got "mid 90s German black metal", and on 4chan's /mu/ I got something else.

A lot of black metal is really just a form of alternative metal that takes merges some of the weirder thrash of the 80s (Coroner, Living Death, Bulldozer, etc) with post-punk and noise rock. Even the first-wave stuff is heavily derived from it; just compare early Celtic Frost with Christian Death's Deathwish EP recorded in 1981. Or early Bathory taking pretty standard hardcore punk progessions and making people imagine they're tremolo-picked due to the recording quality. That isn't to say that a mix of all these non-metal influences didn't create something novel, but it's still just alternative metal.

You have outdone yourself here. This is worse than that time you claimed some shitty metalcore band was straight '80s style thrash metal.

 

[UltimateApathy]

Black metal in 1988, just without the needless repetition and shit production:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm3yJV7y1oM

This shit isn't Black Metal

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You have outdone yourself here. This is worse than that time you claimed some shitty metalcore band was straight '80s style thrash metal.

Don't be upset just because you like false metal.

This shit isn't Black Metal

Not enough Playstation MIDI or drum machines?

 

[Omni]

I'm not upset at all. I think you're hilarious.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What's hilarious about the objective fact that many so-called metalcore bands are full of thrash metal riffs, regardless of the presence of breakdowns?

 

[Omni]

Different music can contain similar musical elements without being the same genre of music, you know.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Sure. So what non-metal elements do you hear in this song?

 

[Krow]

I made a lo-fi mutilation of that song and posted it on three forums claiming it to be an unknown demo, and no one doubted that it was black metal. The responses were all different though; on the BraveBoard I think I got LLN comparisons, on UltimateGuitar's metal board I got "mid 90s German black metal", and on 4chan's /mu/ I got something else.

A lot of black metal is really just a form of alternative metal that takes merges some of the weirder thrash of the 80s (Coroner, Living Death, Bulldozer, etc) with post-punk and noise rock. Even the first-wave stuff is heavily derived from it; just compare early Celtic Frost with Christian Death's Deathwish EP recorded in 1981. Or early Bathory taking pretty standard hardcore punk progessions and making people imagine they're tremolo-picked due to the recording quality. That isn't to say that a mix of all these non-metal influences didn't create something novel, but it's still just alternative metal.

This didn't happen just like all the sad masturbation stories you post.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What didn't happen? People thinking it was a black metal song? Here's the Ultimate-Guitar thread:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=923950&goto=nextnewest

In that thread I reference another forum which I believe was 4chan; I feel fairly certain the LLN reference happened on the BraveBoard. The modified version I uploaded still works; listen to it.

I can provide evidence of my sad masturbation stories too, if you so desire.

EDIT: This is a second post I made on /mu/; the original unfortunately doesn't appear to be archived, but whatevs.

 

[Mort Divine]

According to you thrash is by definition alternative metal, and so is doom. It's a nonsense useless distinction.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Nah, hardcore was more an influence in spirit on thrash (except maybe in drumming). Pretty much all of the earliest thrash bands began as pure heavy metal. Unless there is a large hardcore influence on Venom I'm unaware of? Black metal, on the other hand, is full of bands like Ved Buens Ende that switch abruptly from metal riffing to non-metal riffing and back. To call them a metal band would be like calling Primus a metal band.

EDIT: But to be fair, black metal isn't the only sub-genre with alternative influence. Many people seem to give bands like Disharmonic Orchestra and Carbonized the pass as "experimental" death metal, for example.

 

[Omni]

The word "alternative" is not a good word for what you're describing because of its current usage in terms of a music descriptor.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What does "alternative" mean to you?

 

[Omni]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative

I guess that you've never heard of alternative as a music genre before, but you also think that Protest the Hero is a thrash band.

Black metal is not a part of the umbrella of alternative music and you can't invent enough reasons to convince anyone other than yourself.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Alternative metal (also known as alt-metal[3] or hard alternative[4]) is a style of rock music that usually combines elements of heavy metal with influences from its parent-genre alternative rock,[5] and other genres not normally associated with metal.[6][5] Alternative metal bands are often characterized by heavy guitar riffs, melodic vocals, sometimes harsh vocals, unconventional sounds within other heavy metal genres, unconventional song structures and sometimes experimental approaches to heavy music.[6]

Alternative rock (also called alternative music, alt-rock or simply alternative) is a genre of rock music that emerged from the independent music underground of the 1980s and became widely popular by the 1990s. In this instance, the word "alternative" refers to the genre's distinction from mainstream rock music, expressed primarily in a distorted guitar sound, subversive and/or transgressive lyrics and generally a nonchalant, defiant attitude. The term's original meaning was broader, referring to a generation of musicians unified by their collective debt to either the musical style, or simply the independent, D.I.Y. ethos of punk rock, which in the late 1970s laid the groundwork for alternative music.[4] At times, "alternative" has been used as a catch-all description for music from underground rock artists that receives mainstream recognition, or for any music, whether rock or not, that is seen to be descended from punk rock (including some examples of punk itself, as well as new wave, and post-punk).

So we agree then? Ved Buens Ende is alternative metal? To be fair I'll just say that Voivod is also alternative metal, for a thrash equivalent.

 

[CiG]

You're being annoyingly retarded now.