What defines 'alternative' metal

[CiG]

I'm not saying that calling black metal alternative metal is an established usage of the latter. I'm saying that by the definition of alt metal, a lot of black metal should count if there's to be any consistency. My argument stands; music indistinguishable from black metal in terms of riffing, pre-dating established "black metal", exists, and it came about by and large in the alternate scene.

If there's to be any consistency, Black Metal shouldn't even be a genre, because the bands that fall under the category often sound very different on a technical level.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Indistinguishable according by what measure?

That's like discussing a lot of people unfamiliar with metal can't tell the difference between Slipknot and Morbid Angel. After all, they do actually share some similarities.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed and conparing the two or even trying to claim that black metal is alternative music is stupid.

According to that song from Ham I just posted the previous page. No one could tell that it "wasn't" black metal.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

If there's to be any consistency, Black Metal shouldn't even be a genre, because the bands that fall under the category often sound very different on a technical level.

This is why alternative metal is a better descriptor for it. Just like alternative metal, black metal takes a bunch of non-metal sounds and mixes them together with only the common link of some aesthetic choices and a basic musical tropes.

 

[Baroque]

If we're going to talk about 'metal sounds' and 'non-metal sounds' then we have to define metal and that's proven to be very difficult over the years. Metal is the evolution of many different genres of music. I mean I could say Dio's voice has elements of Romantic Opera does that make Holy Diver alternative metal? Where are lines drawn?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The riffing is where it mostly counts. A simple rule of thumb would be that if you can find riffs in a metal band that originated outside of metal/hard rock/hardcore punk music, it's alternative metal.

 

[Baroque]

This is more metal than anything written by the Beatles. From 1815, Franz Schubert. Metal is classical, rock, blues, psychedelic, progressive rock, jazz...

 

[Baroque]

The riffing is where it mostly counts. A simple rule of thumb would be that if you can find riffs in a metal band that originated outside of metal/hard rock/hardcore punk music, it's alternative metal.

I dunno. That piano riff above is pretty metal. Would you call that alternative metal?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Jazz really doesn't have such a big place in metal. I would definitely call even the first Cynic album alt metal with all of its full-on fusion segments and such. That's in contrast to an album like Unquestionable Presence which may be "jazzy" in some form but is basically built on thrash and death metal riffing, no matter how spastic or technical it may be. I would call earlier Mekong Delta pure thrash metal, as even though the arrangements of the riffs are classically influenced, the riffing itself is full of proper thrash chugging. Likewise, Schubert is not metal.

 

[The Ozzman]

How is alternative metal out side of 'metal' when 'metal' is attached to the name?

 

[CiG]

This is why alternative metal is a better descriptor for it. Just like alternative metal, black metal takes a bunch of non-metal sounds and mixes them together with only the common link of some aesthetic choices and a basic musical tropes.

I don't necessarily agree with this, I would say that Black Metal, before it became uniform after the 90's to some degree, is mostly elements borrowed from pre-existing Metal styles with an added atmosphere, attitude, or any other romantic sounding factor.

I also don't agree about your definition because that would assume there is such a thing as pure Metal with no non-Metal influences.

 

[CiG]

How is alternative metal out side of 'metal' when 'metal' is attached to the name?

I think he means, the influences are mostly outside of Metal.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Yes. Alternative metal is still metal. Korn is metal. Alice in Chains is metal. Ved Buens Ende is metal.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I don't necessarily agree with this, I would say that Black Metal, before it became uniform after the 90's to some degree, is mostly elements borrowed from pre-existing Metal styles with an added atmosphere, attitude, or any other romantic sounding factor.

I also don't agree about your definition because that would assume there is such a thing as pure Metal with no non-Metal influences.

First-wave black metal is still mostly metal. My point about Christian Death and Celtic Frost was just to say that there is a link to post-punk in black metal from the beginning; it wasn't as pronounced as the metal elements at the time, of course.

Non-metal influences are one thing, non-metal elements are another. There is plenty of trad, thrash, and death metal wholly composed of metal riffing.

 

[The Ozzman]

How is Korn metal?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

They have some riffs that vaguely fit into the groove/alternative thing found in bands like Helmet. Not the most metal band out there, but neither is Amesoeurs.

 

[Omni]

According to that song from Ham I just posted the previous page. No one could tell that it "wasn't" black metal.

You fooled a couple of people on the internet. Congratulations.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You fooled a couple of people on the internet. Congratulations.

Anyone with an objective ear can hear that it sounds like black metal.

 

[Omni]

The riffing is where it mostly counts. A simple rule of thumb would be that if you can find riffs in a metal band that originated outside of metal/hard rock/hardcore punk music, it's alternative metal.

Why is hardcore punk exempt? There's absolutely no real reason why it would be since it is not an original metal influence.

I'd also like to point out that this opinion is one of the dumbest that you've ever shared and is clearly fully based on your dislike of black metal.

 

[Omni]

Anyone with an objective ear can hear that it sounds like black metal.

I can make a crappy sounding version of a lot of music and call it black metal and people might believe me. That doesn't make it black metal and you would never convince anyone of merit that it's a prominent or important influence on the genre just because you can make it sound like shit.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Why is hardcore punk exempt? There's absolutely no real reason why it would be since it is not an original metal influence.

I'd also like to point out that this opinion is one of the dumbest that you've ever shared and is clearly fully based on your dislike of black metal.

Because hardcore punk was influenced by metal, because it predates alternative rock as a concept, and because it was critical to the development of all early extreme metal. Hence why Cro-Mags aren't considered alt metal but RHCP are.

I can make a crappy sounding version of a lot of music and call it black metal and people might believe me. That doesn't make it black metal and you would never convince anyone of merit that it's a prominent or important influence on the genre just because you can make it sound like shit.

So if making something sound like crap makes it sound like black metal, it proves my point which is that black metal is an aesthetic without a unifying musical basis, and that any form of non-metal can be molded to sound like black metal with bad production.

Also, you are forgetting that I posted songs from them in proper quality and that many have admitted that they sound like black metal.