who was a bigger influence?

[skeptik]

They're both. There is a lot of overlap in the early days of Black Metal where Black Metal wasn't so rigidly defined and its ranked included those bands who were on the extreme ends of the spectrum. That's why Venom can just as easily be talked about in relation to Heavy and Speed Metal and Black Metal and Slayer and Sodom and Possessed and Sarcofago can be discussed as Death and Thrash Metal.

 

[Zephyrus]

Everybody knows Iron Maiden were the first metalcore band. If you disagree then you don't know shit about metal.

 

[~Neurotica]

Seems like I don't know shit about metal...

 

[Vitor]

in fact, slayer, possessed and venom are metal bands, and who tries to classify it, commits a mistake

 

[skeptik]

in fact, slayer, possessed and venom are metal bands, and who tries to classify it, commits a mistake

It's an interesting point of discussion for those who are interested in the history and development of the genre.

 

[Vitor]

ok, so , for me:

possessed, slayer & venom are speed/thrash metal

and you don't need to remeber me that it's a ineteresting point of discussion, cuz i've discussed with you since yesterday about this

 

[Vitor]

ok, keep your eyes closed... the bands that you're talking about either don't care what is you consider

 

[Vitor]

who did name you the master of the truth?

 

[skeptik]

Your own views of these bands do not change the reality of the way that they were viewed during the time that they were relevant. They are the fathers, the pioneers, the first Black Metal bands. They are the embryonic stage. However, your argument is "it doesn't exactly sound like Black Metal the way that I understand it today," and thus you dismiss the argument without actually understanding what the argument actually is. And you tell me that I have my eyes closed. I'm not "the master of the truth," I'm just a person that put a lot of time into exploring this area of discussion because it interested me. What I'm saying isn't "the truth" because I say it is, it's simply the reality of the 80s scene as professed by those who lived it, namely the bands, the 'zine writers, and the particularly more involved fans, like those who actually conversed with the bands. This is the way that Black Metal was understood in the 80s. It's not their problem that the conception of Black Metal was altered after them, and it shouldn't negate their status just because what is considered Black Metal today (though there ARE still bands who take direct influence from Mercyful Fate, Venom, Bathory, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Slayer/ Bulldozer, Sodom, Kreator, Dark Angel, Samael, Sarcofago, etc) no longer sound like that.

 

[Vitor]

the albun beyond the gates from possessed is more death metal than seven church, if you compaire, but i just classify what i hear, and i don't care if anyone in the past called possessed death metal... to me, the first death metal band is necrophagia.

and venom can't be classified as black metal or we must call slayer black metal too

 

[Mort Divine]

No it isn't. Beyond the Gates is pure thrash.

 

[Vitor]

someone said that it's the cuz of the existence of sub-sub-sub genres on the underground...

someone ask:

- Which gender is this band? black metal?

and other one answer:

- no, it's viking-folk-symphonic-brutal-technical-cyber black metal

do me a favor

 

[LivingCadaver]

I agree with the fact that that venom was a pioneer of black metal and therefor could be considered black metal just like possessed pioneered death metal, black sabbath doom/stoner and heavy metal and Terrorizer grind.

It's like saying Terrorizer aren't grind because most modern grind band don't sound like them...

*edit*
oh and for this poll I voted Celtic Frost because I didn't saw the question was about black metal in first place. CF were a solid influence for doom metal.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

@ Necuratul

I understand what you're saying, but I still think clarity and descriptiveness are better cases for the usage of a genre label than historical context is. Like I said, if you apply a new subgenre label every time a band or group of bands finds a new niche in the musical territory, then you end up with stuff like troll metal, viking metal, and pirate metal. Most people don't give a shit about the aforementioned genre labels; the term "black metal" only became significant because it became such a clearly-defined and widely-emulated style after the days of Venom, Mercyful Fate, Celtic Frost, Bathory, etc.

I don't think anyone's going to lose sight of the roles of the pioneering bands if they're referred to by terms other than "black metal". ...Though when you get down to it, it's only a handful of early bands whose genre is in question, so calling them "black metal" isn't going to do much to pollute the definition. I just know I'm much more likely to listen to Venom alongside Motörhead than alongside bands like Mayhem, Darkthrone, etc.

There you have my defense of genre labels as a stylistic term rather than a historical term. 'Cause you're obviously that interested in my opinion.

 

[Jreg]

Everybody knows Iron Maiden were the first metalcore band. If you disagree then you don't know shit about metal.

It's all on account of those massive breakdowns throughout "Revelations."

 

[Astrum]

 

[Vitor]

so, going by this way, someone could consider Pantera the first New Metal Band, but i know that is a bullshit, and the first grindcore band is D.R.I, cuz there are some blast beats in their first albun, but everyone knows that it's a lie

 

[genocide roach]

actually, i do consider pantera the first nu metal band. along with anthrax
~gR~

 

[Vitor]

it's your opinion and i disagree, but i understand why many people think like you

 

[Hatebreeder]

actually, i do consider pantera the first nu metal band. along with anthrax
~gR~

Possibly, but I don't know about Anthrax.