Wierd Intonation Problem

[kenfobert]

I don't know how many of you this has happened to before so I'll try and explain.

I tune my guitar down 1 and 1/2 steps with the 6th string down another whole step. Basically drop B I guess:

Dd
Ad
E
B
Gd
B

My guitar is a USA Jackson RR1 and has an Original Floyd Rose floating bridge.

Now I am trying to set the intonation, and I've had to move the E and G string saddles back really far to get the strings intonation set. but the saddles are pretty much right up against the back wall of the bridge. This leaves me with very little room on the fine tuners. On the E string I only get a whole turn out of it and the G string I get 2 turns.

Has anyone else had this problem with Floyd bridges, and if so is there a way to fix this so the strings intonation are right but I still have play left in my fine tuners.

 

[Notuern]

Im really not understanding your problem right here.. can you post pictures?

 

[kenfobert]

If I had a camera I would.

Basically, when I tuned my guitar and hit the 12th fret harmonic, the tuner would say the note was in tune, when I fretted the 12th fret, pretty much all my strings were sharp. So I had to move the saddles of all the strings away from the neck of the guitar to get the intonation right. The E and G string saddles are already the furthest away from the neck and I had to move them back further to bring that sharp fretted note down to be right.

When using your fine tuners, it moves the saddle up and down to tune the string, and because my saddles are pretty much back right against the back wall of the floyd rose, there is no play for the saddles to move up or down.

If you take a floyd rose bridge and press down on the screws that hang off the back of the bridge, you should be able to push them down a bit. If I do that on my E and G string they don't move at all, because they are back so far they are hitting the back wall and have no room to move down.

I'm thinking it's because of the low tuning that I've had to move the saddles back so far to get the intonation right.

So my fine tuners for these strings are pretty much useless.

So whenever I tune, I have to unlock the nut and use the tuning pegs instead of the fine tuners. So I was wondering if anyone had a solution to this or if it's something I have to live with.

 

[Metaltastic]

High-e or low-e? (I assume you're going by standard-tuning string designation)

 

[abt]

I've had to move the E and G string saddles back really far to get the strings intonation set. but the saddles are pretty much right up against the back wall of the bridge.

How are you testing the intonation? If you've got the saddle that far back, at least on the Floyd I've got, it's way too far back to work on any intonation with a 25.5 scale length. You can't fake a change of scale length by moving the bridge, it comes from the nut end. In other words if you need a 27"+ scale length for low tuning you add the length by adding frets at the nut end.

 

[kenfobert]

High-e or low-e? (I assume you're going by standard-tuning string designation)

Low E and yes

 

[kenfobert]

How are you testing the intonation? If you've got the saddle that far back, at least on the Floyd I've got, it's way too far back to work on any intonation with a 25.5 scale length. You can't fake a change of scale length by moving the bridge, it comes from the nut end. In other words if you need a 27"+ scale length for low tuning you add the length by adding frets at the nut end.

I check the intonation by using a tuner. I'm not sure why I've had to move the saddles back this far, I'm assuming it's because of the low tuning, although it's not that low. A, D, G, B and E strings are only down 3 half steps and the low E string is down 5 half steps. I had my guitar in Drop C tuning before this and the same problem occurred. It's been like this for a few years now, but it's really starting to bother me.

 

[Metaltastic]

One should be able to play in Drop-B with tolerable intonation on a 25.5" neck, at least with a fixed bridge (though I never knew that moving the saddle back on a Floyd reduces the range of the fine tuners, so yeah, that's probably your answer, cuz even for C-standard I have the low-E saddle pretty far back on my 25.5" fixed-bridge Ibanez)

 

[Notuern]

You have to have done something wrong here..
And im definitly not getting that problem with the fine tuners?
Are you sure its a OFR?

On the Floyds ive seen the placement of the saddles does not affect the fine tuners at all.

 

[Metaltastic]

Also, be sure you don't have too much relief on the truss rod (when you press your first finger on your left hand on the first fret and your first finger on your right hand at the fret over the neck joint, both on the low-B, there should be about a 1 mm gap between the string and the 7th fret wire) - and what gauge strings are you using?

 

[abt]

Things can get fiddly way up there. A few millimetres can be a huge harmonic distance. You've got to imagine that the frets keep going on forever and the distance between them keeps getting smaller. By the time you get to the bridge you can the span of an octave is tiny.

I don't know what your floyd is like but on mine it's miles back to where it would interfere with the fine tuners. It's probably a complete pain on a Floyd, unless you can lock the bridge somehow, but I'd probably try moving the bridge way closer to standard scale length and work back from there. I tune way down there on a fixed bridge and the saddle is no where near that far back. I fact it not even that far back than standard tuning, a few mm tops.

 

[kenfobert]

One should be able to play in Drop-B with tolerable intonation on a 25.5" neck, at least with a fixed bridge (though I never knew that moving the saddle back on a Floyd reduces the range of the fine tuners, so yeah, that's probably your answer, cuz even for C-standard I have the low-E saddle pretty far back on my 25.5" fixed-bridge Ibanez)

Well moving them back shouldn't limit the fine tuners unless you move them back as far as I have had to. When their back this far, the back angled wall of the bridge will get in the way of the saddle,

You have to have done something wrong here..
And im definitly not getting that problem with the fine tuners?
Are you sure its a OFR?

On the Floyds ive seen the placement of the saddles does not affect the fine tuners at all.

Yes I'm pretty sure it's an OFR. It just says Floyd Rose on it and it's a USA Jackson and I'm pretty sure they all come with OFR.

I drew a quick picture to help. To tune a string using the "Fine Tuners", you turn the fine tuner clockwise or counter-clockwise, which in turn pushes down on the "Intonation Screw" or alleviates pressure which lets the "Intonation Screw" rise.

The "Intonation Screw" is attached to the saddle which in turn either raises or lowers the saddle when using the fine tuners. Because I have had to bring my saddles for the low E and G strings back so far, the bottom of the saddles are hitting the "Curved Back Wall". Because of that the intonation screw cannot go down which means the fine tuner will not turn.

The other guitarist in my band has the same problem with his Jackson as well. What I'm wondering is why we've had to bring the saddles back this far to get the strings "in tune" and properly intonated?

And I'm not trying to sound like a dick explaining how the floyd rose works, I just wanted to be as thorough as possible lol

 

[kenfobert]

Also, be sure you don't have too much relief on the truss rod (when you press your first finger on your left hand on the first fret and your first finger on your right hand at the fret over the neck joint, both on the low-B, there should be about a 1 mm gap between the string and the 7th fret wire) - and what gauge strings are you using?

I did that string test in the gap is pretty close to 1 mm I'd say. I'm using 10 - 52's.

 

[abt]

I'm using 10 - 52's.

That's not going to help. The tension on this is going to be right down about 6kg tuned down to B. That's not enough. For this gauge string standard tension is going to around 11kg and around 9kg for drop tuning. most players go for around 8-9kg but I go for around 7-8 because I like the feel. Anything tension lower that that and every note's going to have a sharp attack and no sustain.

 

[Metaltastic]

I'm not sure how much string tension affects intonation though, more the potential for the note to go sharp on the initial attack - regardless, for a low B I'd probably want a .58, maybe a .60 (and then something like 42-30-20p-14-10 for the rest)

 

[Notuern]

The "Intonation Screw" is attached to the saddle which in turn either raises or lowers the saddle when using the fine tuners. Because I have had to bring my saddles for the low E and G strings back so far, the bottom of the saddles are hitting the "Curved Back Wall". Because of that the intonation screw cannot go down which means the fine tuner will not turn.

The other guitarist in my band has the same problem with his Jackson as well. What I'm wondering is why we've had to bring the saddles back this far to get the strings "in tune" and properly intonated?

And I'm not trying to sound like a dick explaining how the floyd rose works, I just wanted to be as thorough as possible lol

Thats NOT the intonation screw, thats the strings locking bolt.
The saddle is locked down by the locking screw that is located in front of the saddle.
The fine tuners RAISES the back end of the back part on the saddle(So that it doesnt displace the intonation.), so no matter how far back you have the saddle, it should still work.
What i think is happening is that when you increase the strings length, you are also increasing the string pressure.. and you just dont have enough strength to turn the screw.
IF this is the case, your guitar should also be overshot on the intonation.

Im guessing your neck has too much relief, or that the frets are fubar.

 

[abt]

I'm not sure how much string tension affects intonation ...

I not sure on the physics behind it, I have read it, I'll see if I can find it.
I did find this though, http://koivi.com/guitar-intonation.php I'll have a better look later.

I'm pretty sure that the point at where a the vibrating string overlaps, it looks like a skipping rope, moves and gets wider or some of them stop leaving others behind.

 

[Notuern]

The only way fatter vs. smaller strings affects intonation is how the center of their core get aligned differently in height.
BUT there is one difference, and that is higher string tension = more even oscilations.
So thin string may cause an instable intonation, thats one of the reasons fat strings generally sound better.

 

[kenfobert]

Thats NOT the intonation screw, thats the strings locking bolt.
The saddle is locked down by the locking screw that is located in front of the saddle.
The fine tuners RAISES the back end of the back part on the saddle(So that it doesnt displace the intonation.), so no matter how far back you have the saddle, it should still work.
What i think is happening is that when you increase the strings length, you are also increasing the string pressure.. and you just dont have enough strength to turn the screw.
IF this is the case, your guitar should also be overshot on the intonation.

Im guessing your neck has too much relief, or that the frets are fubar.

It's not an Intonation Screw, I know, I don't know why I called it that. It's the screw that tightens the block on to the string. I don't know what to call it but it doesn't matter.

The fine tuner can raise or lower the back end of the saddle, depending on if the string is sharp or flat. When that back end of the saddle is resting against the back wall, it will NOT be able to raise the pitch of the string by turning the fine tuner clockwise because the saddle can't go down any further. And at this far back, the screw that tightens the block onto the string is hitting the metal right underneath the fine tuner, so it can't go up either. So if that screw cannot move up or down, the fine tuner will not turn at all lol.

It also has nothing to do with me not having the strength. If I move the saddle any further back, the screw that tightens the block on to the string would be hovering above the body of my guitar and pass the bridge cavity, and anytime I raise the bridge the screw would be hitting wood.

Anyway, I appreciate the help but I don't think we need to debate how the floyd rose works, we both know.

 

[155]

dont you have to move the saddle forword if you are sharp?? also heavier strings are definatley in order, and dont fret the string to check intonation its way to unreliable always use the harmonic.