Writing full songs

[Fugdup]

I seem to have problems writing full songs.

I've come up with a bunch of riffs and recorded them, but i don't know how to move on and create full songs out of it.

First of all i have no idea how to make a decent drumtrack that fits with the other instruments. I've tried, it takes forever and the result is just a lame boring drumtrack that a real drummer would laugh at.

Also, if i come up with a riff i like, im stuck when trying to create a hook or chorus or anything that fits.

Kinda hard to explain my problem, but i tried
So, does anyone have any tips/suggestions as to what i can do to improve?

Could it be that i lack inspiration or something?
There's so many people around here that makes awesome songs of some riffs they made up in a matter of hours.
(Sorry if this is the wrong section).

 

[bryan_kilco]

I have the same exact problem.

I only have a creative spurt a few times a year. I normally start by creating a random drum track and by the time I've got like 1:30-2:00 of drums, my brain is about to explode and I'm getting tired. I can only think up so many drum beats/fills and I feel like I'm going about the process backwards, but I really enjoy having drums to jam to.

So, after months and months, I end up with say three or four 1 - 2 minute long mini-songs that don't have much structure, and I'm so used to hearing them the way I originally wrote them, that it's almost impossible to change them or splice ideas together.

Lately I've been just throwing up a click track and freestyling to that. Freestyling usually always results in at least 1 or 2 decent riffs but I have a hard time making fills to piece different ideas together. Then, I end up spending more time mixing the short ideas than I do actually writing creative riffs.

 

[Skinny Viking]

sounds to me like you two lovebirds should collaborate

 

[bryan_kilco]

-.-

I'm in somewhat of a battle with our other guitarist who prefers to write less technical/more structured stuff. I don't give a FOCH about verse chorus shit or anything to please an audience. I just want it to be brootz. The last thing I came up with I had to learn part-by-part and was listening to too much Psycroptic at the time. FML. But pretty much anything I write becomes boring to me a few months down the road.

 

[Fugdup]

I think i listened too much to Ola Englund's stuff.
It's like i use his songs as a "recipe" to how songs should be
Guess i gotta try harder.

 

[bryan_kilco]

Really though, just try finding new music that really gets you going. It's what has inspired me.

For example, I haven't actually learned another bands song in about 10 years. Like 2 years ago, I really got into Death (yeah, I'm a bit late on that one, huh?!) and was so inspired that I wanted to learn and cover some of their material.

Also - different tunings helps for me. I'm so used to playing Drop C, that if I go to D Standard, its thrash central.

 

[thefalloftheheretic]

I write in spurts as well.
Currently, Devin Townsend has gotten me inspired, so I'm writing like a madman.
It's all a matter of finding what gets you inspired, mate.

Would write more on this, but I'm eating chili. :hotjump::hotjump::hotjump:

 

[colonel kurtz]

maybe it's just me, but i can't write riffs to drums

my usual process is to smoke some tree, then jam out and come up with a bunch of random riffs - whichever ones i like, and think have promise for later use, i'll tab out so i don't forget

then i'll come back to the tabs a few days later and sift through the the riffs i wrote down...some will still make me , while others make me uke: and usually get tossed aside like a chinese daughter

then i start piecing the shit i have together into songs...sometimes no 2 riffs gel with each other, and i have to write an entire song around one riff, and other times i've pretty much busted out an entire track all at once. the biggest thing, for me, is identifying the best use for the material i come up with 1st - "this would be an awesome intro", or "this would be a great chorus hook", and then having an inert feel for what should proceed or follow, and what general direction the song should take.

 

[Siriun]

maybe it's just me, but i can't write riffs to drums

my usual process is to smoke some tree, then jam out and come up with a bunch of random riffs - whichever ones i like, and think have promise for later use, i'll tab out so i don't forget

then i'll come back to the tabs a few days later and sift through the the riffs i wrote down...some will still make me , while others make me uke: and usually get tossed aside like a chinese daughter

then i start piecing the shit i have together into songs...sometimes no 2 riffs gel with each other, and i have to write an entire song around one riff, and other times i've pretty much busted out an entire track all at once. the biggest thing, for me, is identifying the best use for the material i come up with 1st - "this would be an awesome intro", or "this would be a great chorus hook", and then having an inert feel for what should proceed or follow, and what general direction the song should take.

That's the same problem I have. Usually when I write, I'll write like, 2 or 3 great riffs but none of them work together at all. Or sometimes I'll write a passage or two that fits together but then get writers block. I'm such a perfectionist when it comes to composing my own material it keeps me from making songs.

 

[zakky]

yeah i feel the same way with all the stuff above............maybe a simple way to make songs which i do sometimes is i chose a the bpm click track which my song will be and write 5-6 riffs that stick together...maybe even loop your first riff with your 4th riff and different combinations and copy-pasteting your riffs in a different order.....start with an intro riff and work from there.
not sure its a right way of doing it but it works sometimes.....also its good to listen to any group-song you like and get into the vibe before you write something ....

 

[petrucci_dude]

Learn how to make variations of riffs, melodic and rhythmic ideas, anything really. That'll give you as many new ideas as you want out of that one spark you initially have! I do that a lot with my songs, I might take just 3 notes and turn it into something completely different through experimentation. Have a look at this stuff and try rewriting some of the same riffs with new techniques learned here:

http://solomonsmusic.net/vartech.htm - seriously, an invaluable tool!

Also, I take weeks off from listening to metal sometimes and drown myself in crappy top 40 charts, folk music, trance, whatever... if you're open minded to other styles of music it'll probably enhance your creativity with whatever style you're writing for.

 

[dan weapon]

Firstly this depends on what sort of music you're playing.

Song structure/arrangement is just as important if not more so than cool riffs, imho. I learned that over a period of years, the hard way - which usually involved trying to write 20 cool sections and shoe-horning them into a song. Slowly realised that less can often be more, and stuff can still be interesting without being as technical or proggy as possible.

Let's say you are playing any sort of rock/metal except prog, or something where the whole point is to be technical and obscure:

Starting with the bigger picture I think about the rough structure and mixing up the basic feel of the drums depending on the section, eg it might have a half time chorus if you are writing something epic, or a double time verse if you're doing something thrashy or punky. Everyone's mileage will vary greatly here, but these days most of my songs loosely follow this sort of structure:

-intro riff.
-verse 1.
-prechorus riff.
-verse 2, but with a little twist here or there.
-prechorus riff.
-chorus.
-bridge section (perhaps a key or time/tempo change, a nod to the intro riff, a breakdown, guitar solo, clean guitar section or whatever)
-chorus (maybe played twice, but the second time half time or double time)
-outro (perhaps the intro riff again, perhaps something that takes you off somewhere completely different)

This is absolutely not a template to be adhered to, but it roughly follows the old verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus mold, but with enough different ideas to give you some room to be interesting with. It doesn't bore with too many choruses or verses, but has enough repetition so it doesn't just feel like 'riff soup'. I also love the whole "pre chorus, but then back to a verse rather than a chorus" first time round as well. But that's just me.

I personally want to hear the coolest riffs as intro/post chorus/bridge sections. I want choruses to be a bit more open and allow room for the vocals to do their thing. I want the verses to be interesting too, and not exactly the same as each other but certainly similar. But music is so subjective and so vast that you could write a thesis on it and wouldn't mean shit if the person reading it doesn't get the same enjoyment out of certain aspects as you do. People might read the above and think I'm speaking bollocks, but again it doesn't matter because it works for me.

Try and have a purpose behind a riff you write.... does it feel like a chorus riff or a beatdown? Try coming up with a structure and painting the riffs in depending on what they feel like and see how you get on.

 

[Clark Kent]

Try not to think of songs as multiple riffs. Think about the feel of a song. One way to get out of that riff type of thinking is to simply sing the riffs and try to write the song further with just singing. Remember that the greatness of a song is not measured by the amount of different notes or speed within but the overall flow and how it makes you feel.

 

[AricMoirae]

In most cases, If I am properly inspired, a song will sorta write itself. (This is an exaggeration) But really, a lot less thought is required to construct the song if the inspiration is there. It's almost as though I go into an auto pilot mode, and parts just start flowing out.

It has not always been this way though. I used to have similar issues to yours. But I have been writing songs for a good number of years at this point and I have gotten a lot better at it over time. Like anything else, songwriting is a skill that needs to be practiced and honed. My advice would be to just keep listening to as much music as you can get your hands on and, jam on your instrument whenever you're feeling inspired. Things will fall into place in time.

As far as programming drums goes. Pick up playing drums on the side. You will begin to understand in detail what drummers do and why they do it. The more you know the instrument, the better you will be at composing for it. Hope this helps at all.

 

[B36arin]

Firstly this depends on what sort of music you're playing.

Song structure/arrangement is just as important if not more so than cool riffs, imho. I learned that over a period of years, the hard way - which usually involved trying to write 20 cool sections and shoe-horning them into a song. Slowly realised that less can often be more, and stuff can still be interesting without being as technical or proggy as possible.

Let's say you are playing any sort of rock/metal except prog, or something where the whole point is to be technical and obscure:

Starting with the bigger picture I think about the rough structure and mixing up the basic feel of the drums depending on the section, eg it might have a half time chorus if you are writing something epic, or a double time verse if you're doing something thrashy or punky. Everyone's mileage will vary greatly here, but these days most of my songs loosely follow this sort of structure:

-intro riff.
-verse 1.
-prechorus riff.
-verse 2, but with a little twist here or there.
-prechorus riff.
-chorus.
-bridge section (perhaps a key or time/tempo change, a nod to the intro riff, a breakdown, guitar solo, clean guitar section or whatever)
-chorus (maybe played twice, but the second time half time or double time)
-outro (perhaps the intro riff again, perhaps something that takes you off somewhere completely different)

This is absolutely not a template to be adhered to, but it roughly follows the old verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus mold, but with enough different ideas to give you some room to be interesting with. It doesn't bore with too many choruses or verses, but has enough repetition so it doesn't just feel like 'riff soup'. I also love the whole "pre chorus, but then back to a verse rather than a chorus" first time round as well. But that's just me.

I personally want to hear the coolest riffs as intro/post chorus/bridge sections. I want choruses to be a bit more open and allow room for the vocals to do their thing. I want the verses to be interesting too, and not exactly the same as each other but certainly similar. But music is so subjective and so vast that you could write a thesis on it and wouldn't mean shit if the person reading it doesn't get the same enjoyment out of certain aspects as you do. People might read the above and think I'm speaking bollocks, but again it doesn't matter because it works for me.

Try and have a purpose behind a riff you write.... does it feel like a chorus riff or a beatdown? Try coming up with a structure and painting the riffs in depending on what they feel like and see how you get on.

Wow, I don't think I've ever agreed with so many points in the same post.

 

[petrucci_dude]

Yeah, dan weapon has some points there!!

 

[Fugdup]

Good points here! Thanks for your help people, will definately keep these in mind

 

[Clark Kent]

Sure you can write a song like every radio song:

intro
verse
bridge
chorus
verse2
bridge2
chorus2
outro

But the whole point of the "feel thing" I was talking about is that you should never automatically place a verse or a chorus somewhere because "that's the way a song should go". Even radio songs break those patterns. There are some songs that have an intro and go straight to chorus. F.ex. Linkin Park has such songs and that's an epic way to start a song. So once again I advice to imagine the song in your head and literally sing the song and see where you naturally feel the song "has to go". Not because a song has to have a chorus within the first minute or stuff like that but because the song flows naturally. That's the best way to get a good flow and emotion in a song.

 

[GearMan2point0]

My band is all over the place.....

One song is:

Intro breakdown
Riff 1
Riff 2 (completely different from riff 1)
Chorus
Riff 3
Breakdown 2
Riff 4
Chorus (different Chorus entirely)
Riff 5
Bridge
Outro Breakdown

We do things progressively. We rarely repeat riffs.

 

[shabtronic]

I'm currently writing tunes using audio sketches (cut'n'paste riffs u like together into a structure) - works really well - spend al ong time on the structure of the tune - it's so very important, more important than your riffs in the long run, u end up with a great "whole" song. I got fed up with stringing 1/2 good riffs together - feel there's a lot of pressure doing it that way - it's almost counter creative to sit with a guitar and try to write a whole tune - it's a lot of effort making riffs and sections and making the gel together, restarting coz they don't work - it's all negative in the writing process. Much simpler to mix'n'match riffs from bands you like - see if the vibes fit together.

Here's one I'm currently working on:



once it's done and I'm happy with the flow of the tune - I'll copy the vibe and feeling of each part of the tune (not the notes directly) - this is the point I pickup the guitar and start writing riffs ( I make a point of not touching guitar or being anywhere near a guitar until the sketch is completet). This makes song writing so much easier - you now have a "plan" that you can work from - that has timings and vibes e.t.c. - so easy, no more writers block or creative walls!