Yanks only: Who are you voting for on Tuesday?

[Matt]

McCain behaves like a shit. That Obama ad where they use his facial expressions is fucking lol.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Obama/Biden

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

I'm reasonably sure McCain is more familiar with world affairs and has a better sense of how international negotiations work. That's not to say I agree entirely with his philosophy on foreign policy, but I'd trust him more as a diplomat than I would Obama.

How international negotiations work? With McCain it would be with a gun then with anything else. He is anything but a diplomat. He liked quoting Teddy Roosevelts': Speak softly and Carry a big stick. With McCain he would speak softly last and use the big stick first. He probably has his big stick in his hand all the time (debatable if it's "big").

Anyways in order to be diplomatic in foreign affairs you would first have to be well liked and as it stands right now Obama is more liked internationally then McCain ever will be.

.

Besides, what's stopping celebrities and mult-billionaires from winning major elections now? Arnold Schasrtniataineger is the governor of California if you hadn't remembered.

Don't forget Jesse Ventura... but anyways if people ran without belonging to a political party there would be too many candidates and confusion as to whom to vote for...

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

True, most people from other countries that I've heard from (pretty much people here and a few other forums) would rather we have Obama than McCain. I think, despite any racist inclinations this statement could have, that having a guy that's half-black as our diplomat is at least slightly more inviting than yet another old crotchety white guy.

 

[AchrisK]

I think it's important to look at what specific characteristics a fetus shares with a human, because that's a far more meaningful way of 'drawing a line' on life than just making an either/or decision on whether fetus = human.

That said, there are many of these factors, a few of which are:
1) brain function
2) capacity for emotion
3) physiological similarity to a born human
4) relationships with, and influence on, other humans

Another way to think of it is that 100% of fetuses who do not die, become humans. Abortion eliminates humans. You can call it what you like.

There's also the question of giving parents the freedom to choose whether they want to have a child, which many pro-abortion people overemphasise and many pro-life people ignore.

The freedom? From my perspective this is utterly ridiculous. The time to make the decision is not after you get pregnant. If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. I mean, doesn't that make sense? If not, show me where my logic fails.

My intent is not to oversimplify the issue and ignore the myriad of situations that lead people to consider abortion. But convenience and irresponsibility should not be reasons for abortion. While many people may hold very conservative views on the whole issue, I think there would be much less outrage if abortions were legal, but limited to extreme circumstances.

I'm not going to get into this shit right now, but I just wanted to say that you should be considering these factors when debating abortion, and not just "when life begins". It's pretty naive to resolve a question of life and death by merely asserting, "more life is always better than less life".

I would not say it is a more vs less issue. If people don't want kids, they have the right not to get pregnant. I think this is more of an issue about the value of existent life, which brings up issues about basic ideologies.

 

[skeptik]

You're not eliminating a human by having an abortion. Stop saying things like that because it's a propagandizing fear tactic that is in contrast with the facts. If you make a bread mixture and put it in the oven, but take it out before it is baked properly and takes on the properties of what constitutes bread, would you say that you have eliminated bread?

 

[AchrisK]

Bread isn't alive and is not a being.

You are eliminating a human. It's very simple.

 

[The Ozzman]

but bread is tasty just like little children...?

 

[ThisIsACoolName]

I would like the records to show that bread smells a lot better than children.

 

[skeptik]

Bread isn't alive and is not a being.

You are eliminating a human. It's very simple.

A fetus is not alive and is not a human. Do some research.

 

[The Ozzman]

I would like the records to show that bread smells a lot better than children.

You don't cook the children correctly then

 

[The Ozzman]

A fetus is not alive and is not a human. Do some research.

Just playing devil's advocate: What about the claim that since the fetus has DNA that it is alive? I've heard that argument before.

 

[skeptik]

Lots of things that have DNA are not alive. A fetus is a thing that contains all of the components necessary to create a living thing, but, before a certain point, it is not a living thing. It is just a thing that possesses the capacity to develop into a living thing, much like my bread dough analogy. Speaking of which, I have a modest proposal...

Edit: I should be clear that there is an obvious distinction being made between what it means for something to be "alive" and for something to possess a life as it applies to sentient beings. I'm obviously talking about the latter.

 

[Mort Divine]

I would like the records to show that bread smells a lot better than children.

You don't cook the children correctly then

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I never said I was going to do anything. I just think political parties should be abolished. Electing the right person for any position shouldn't be determined by their party affiliation, it should be determined on their opinions and plans. I know a ton of people who are voting for so and so solely for their party and don't know jack shit about what they actually stand for.

Besides, what's stopping celebrities and mult-billionaires from winning major elections now? Arnold Schasrtniataineger is the governor of California if you hadn't remembered.

If someone is qualified enough, the people will recognize it and the right person will be elected.

Methinks you're missing my point, which is that parties are inevitable. It's not like you can prevent any group of two or more people from collaborating for a political goal. And I didn't say there aren't already celebrities and multibillionaires in politics (duh), but parties allow less rich and less popular people to rise in politics through the support of their party.

It would be nice if there were a way to limit the power of parties and prevent monopolisation, but I'm not sure how that could be accomplished.

 

[entanglement]

Just playing devil's advocate: What about the claim that since the fetus has DNA that it is alive? I've heard that argument before.

even your toothbrush has some of your dna. lets give it a family name!

this argument is hugely ridiculous. you eliminate a fetus if you don't want it to turn into a living thing. its not alive yet.. its yet to be born. if it is then don't call the pumping out process fucking BIRTH! if a fetus is alive, so should sperm, the egg, and the zygote be, since they're 'living things' anyway. yet the anti abortionists have no trouble dumping potential children during their sexual release. bah.. there's the whole carlin lecture. anyway furthurmore, i've always felt that if a parent can plant the seed he/she should have the choice of backtracking any time he/she wants.

edit: for those who haven't, watch!

 

[zabu of nΩd]

this argument is hugely ridiculous. you eliminate a fetus if you don't want it to turn into a living thing. its not alive yet.. its yet to be born. if it is then don't call the pumping out process fucking BIRTH! if a fetus is alive, so should sperm, the egg, and the zygote be, since they're 'living things' anyway. yet the anti abortionists have no trouble dumping potential children during their sexual release.

Pretty much. The thing about this whole notion of human life beginning at conception is that it seems highly arbitrary. It's as if as soon as you combine a sperm and an egg, the zygote suddenly acquires this "destiny" which must not, under any condition, be interfered with.

In reality, the world will continue to turn whether we abort fetuses or not. They don't have the same properties as a full-blown human being, so they do not warrant the same standards of legal protection. We're not going to suffer some cataclysmic moral crisis from abortion, any more than we would from hunting, fishing, deforestation, war, or any of the other "anti-life" activities humans do.

 

[King Richard]

Don't forget Jesse Ventura... but anyways if people ran without belonging to a political party there would be too many candidates and confusion as to whom to vote for...

Methinks you're missing my point, which is that parties are inevitable. It's not like you can prevent any group of two or more people from collaborating for a political goal. And I didn't say there aren't already celebrities and multibillionaires in politics (duh), but parties allow less rich and less popular people to rise in politics through the support of their party.

It would be nice if there were a way to limit the power of parties and prevent monopolisation, but I'm not sure how that could be accomplished.

I'm going to have to disagree here. When was the last time there was a presidential nominee that no one has ever heard of? They are either governors, senators, vice presidents, or presidents running for office again. I highly doubt that 528923598253 people off of the street are just going to go "dude let's run for president because there are no parties!!11." They would still have to have some sort of resume, gain support from the government and the people. Which is no different than now, just that their stupid little label of "Republican" or "Democrat" would be gone, thus preventing blind voting due to said label.

Times have changed my friends, we don't need political parties to hand select nominees for any office anymore. The people should do their own homework, and lord knows that with the inception of the internet it's a lot easier to find out what you need to know about anyone or anything.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

lots of people are stupid and/or lazy, don't use the internet, wouldn't try to find info even if they did, etc.

 

[Achtland]

Satan Cheney has now endorsed the Republican ticket. If you want the world to end in a zionist mushroom cloud vote Republican! :Smokedev: