Yanks only: Who are you voting for on Tuesday?

[Einherjar86]

The entire argument of abortion stems from a purely moral view. I don't want to get into the ethics/morals of "murder," although I have to admit that I believe if murder was made legal you still wouldn't see a huge sudden increase in its occurrence. I don't want to go back to the Wergild system of pre-Norman England; I'm only using this to make a point: abortion is a moral argument, but it shouldn't be. It's a logical decision. It might be selfish, but humans have the right to be selfish if they want; and usually, it's not a decision that's arrived at easily. Some people argue that we have no idea what the unborn fetus might grow up to be; he or she might be the next great world leader! But the chances are, if the parents are considering abortion, it won't be.

I don't personally agree with abortion (my own flawed moral compass peeking through), but I have no right to tell someone else they can't get one.

 

[Dak]

I'm remembering that thread about creationism v evolution. I seem to remember some mind-blowing retardation there. Also, I don't think we should use Heat Mizer as a baseline for ban-worthiness.

I won't drag this on any more Dodens. We fundamentally disagree on what constitutes [human], and nothing is going to change that.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

You can't fundamentally disagree on fucking fact. What logic do you ascribe to which states that a human is a different thing than what Matt is saying? Souls =/= logic. Religion is not logic, there is a distinct separation of church and state anyway which prevents stupid shit like what you're spewing from ending up as political fact.

also he made this point above. Why the fuck can't you make some kind of new convincing argument which is stated from a truthful, factual perspective without resorting to theologian bullshit arguments.

 

[Hubster]

I'm pro-abortion. Fuck kids.

 

[Xorv]

Human beings have no rights, we can all die right this second and a few Christians/Catholics are worried about losing a few more infestations eradicating this planet with their shit and their plastic bottles. Sometimes some of the idiots don't realize how fucking small we are and how little we know.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

However, I don't have much faith in any political candidates anymore. The truth is, they all promise what they can't deliver. In the list of candidates for the '08 election, I'm hard-pressed to find a single person I'd feel comfortable voting for (in fact, I can't find one). I would simply not vote, but I don't want either Obama or McCain in the White House. So, Barr is the best choice for me.

I guess that's one way to look at it... But that still doesn't explain why you think Barr is a better choice. Even if you can't find a candidate who represents your views, or is even likely to act on those views, you could at least (have) vote(d) for someone who has some common sense about the job. On that criterion alone, McCain seems like the best choice to me.

How does that make sense?
If you don't want McCain or Obama, you're basically fucked because one will win. But regardless, voting for Barr is the same as not voting because he's not going to win.

I know I've shared your view before, but I'm going to have to speak out against it now since I've been convinced otherwise. The thing is, how else are minor parties going to gain any footing for the Presidential race? It's not like you can just tell people "don't vote for them - there'll be a better time for it later" since it's difficult if not impossible to know when that time will come. If anything, minor parties with significant support force the major parties to make concessions to them since they threaten their positions.

Personally, if there were a case where I didn't care about either major candidate, I'd consider voting for a minor one if a good one existed. But as far as this election, I think Obama has a lot of potential to create positive change, and even if there were a good minor candidate for this election (which I don't think there is), I wouldn't want to risk hurting the race for the better major candidate (which, in this case, I consider much, much better than the alternative - McCain).

 

[King Richard]

I think political parties should be abolished.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

And how exactly would you do that? Prevent anyone from giving money or labor to a politician? Then we'd just have celebrities and multibillionaires winning major elections.

 

[waif]

The thing is, how else are minor parties going to gain any footing for the Presidential race?

They won't.

I think political parties should be abolished.

I'm gonna take a wild swing and say you didn't think that one through too well.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

They won't.

It's not impossible - especially if the Internet continues to become a bigger factor in public opinion on candidates.

 

[Einherjar86]

I guess that's one way to look at it... But that still doesn't explain why you think Barr is a better choice. Even if you can't find a candidate who represents your views, or is even likely to act on those views, you could at least (have) vote(d) for someone who has some common sense about the job. On that criterion alone, McCain seems like the best choice to me.

Why would I want someone who doesn't represent my views just because they have "common sense about the job?" He might not be the most experienced candidate, but he'll have a cabinet and advisors. I'd rather choose a normal guy who represents my interests than a politician who's going to "play the game" and who stands for things that I'm against.

 

[skeptik]

How the fuck does McCain have "more common sense about the job", because he's old?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Why would I want someone who doesn't represent my views just because they have "common sense about the job?" He might not be the most experienced candidate, but he'll have a cabinet and advisors. I'd rather choose a normal guy who represents my interests than a politician who's going to "play the game" and who stands for things that I'm against.

Well if Barr really represents your views significantly better than the other candidates, then whatever. I wasn't sure from your other post since you seemed to suggest that none of the candidates really represent your views very closely.

I'm not trying to say that a candidate needs to have a lot of experience or to "play the game", but Barr's foreign policy views sure look like a giant fucking red flag to me, and imo you seem to take that pretty casually.

How the fuck does McCain have "more common sense about the job", because he's old?

I'm reasonably sure McCain is more familiar with world affairs and has a better sense of how international negotiations work. That's not to say I agree entirely with his philosophy on foreign policy, but I'd trust him more as a diplomat than I would Obama.

I can't really think of any other aspects of the Presidency where 'experience' or 'common sense' would matter much besides that.

 

[King Richard]

And how exactly would you do that? Prevent anyone from giving money or labor to a politician? Then we'd just have celebrities and multibillionaires winning major elections.

I never said I was going to do anything. I just think political parties should be abolished. Electing the right person for any position shouldn't be determined by their party affiliation, it should be determined on their opinions and plans. I know a ton of people who are voting for so and so solely for their party and don't know jack shit about what they actually stand for.

Besides, what's stopping celebrities and mult-billionaires from winning major elections now? Arnold Schasrtniataineger is the governor of California if you hadn't remembered.

If someone is qualified enough, the people will recognize it and the right person will be elected.

They won't.


I'm gonna take a wild swing and say you didn't think that one through too well.

And you can persuade me otherwise?

 

[skeptik]

I'm reasonably sure McCain is more familiar with world affairs and has a better sense of how international negotiations work. That's not to say I agree entirely with his philosophy on foreign policy, but I'd trust him more as a diplomat than I would Obama.

I can't really think of any other aspects of the Presidency where 'experience' or 'common sense' would matter much besides that.

You would think that he's more familiar because he's traveled more and met with more foreign leaders, but he still continually and frequently shows his ignorance of region-specific issues. You know, like not knowing the difference between the different ethnicities in Iraq, thinking that Iraq and Pakistan share a border, etc.

 

[AchrisK]

First of all, that's not what I'm saying. A fetus is nothing more than a developing mammal, it is not alive and it is not a human. It has life potential and nothing more. Something that is not alive and not human is not entitled to "right to life". A fetus is a non-living, non-conscious, non-sentient thing. Look it up please. Your idea of the soul is irrelevant to the political discussion because it's completely outside the realm of fact and evidence.

...

So when does a fetus become human? Are you saying that the act of passing through the womb grants the blob humanness, life, consciousness and senses? One minute earlier it is a generic mammal which is dead and cannot feel or think on any level?

WOW!

 

[zabu of nΩd]

You would think that he's more familiar because he's traveled more and met with more foreign leaders, but he still continually and frequently shows his ignorance of region-specific issues. You know, like not knowing the difference between the different ethnicities in Iraq, thinking that Iraq and Pakistan share a border, etc.

Are you saying that Obama is any more informed about these "region-specific issues"? That sounds like nitpicking to me, and I highly doubt you'd be able to show that McCain has as many areas of ignorance as Obama does.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

So when does a fetus become human? Are you saying that the act of passing through the womb grants the blob humanness, life, consciousness and senses? One minute earlier it is a generic mammal which is dead and cannot feel or think on any level?

WOW!

I think it's important to look at what specific characteristics a fetus shares with a human, because that's a far more meaningful way of 'drawing a line' on life than just making an either/or decision on whether fetus = human.

That said, there are many of these factors, a few of which are:
1) brain function
2) capacity for emotion
3) physiological similarity to a born human
4) relationships with, and influence on, other humans

There's also the question of giving parents the freedom to choose whether they want to have a child, which many pro-abortion people overemphasise and many pro-life people ignore.

I'm not going to get into this shit right now, but I just wanted to say that you should be considering these factors when debating abortion, and not just "when life begins". It's pretty naive to resolve a question of life and death by merely asserting, "more life is always better than less life".

 

[skeptik]

Are you saying that Obama is any more informed about these "region-specific issues"? That sounds like nitpicking to me, and I highly doubt you'd be able to show that McCain has as many areas of ignorance as Obama does.

Not knowing the difference between the Sunni and the Shiites is not nitpicking, my friend, I assure you that, especially when you so adamantly support a war in which such information is necessary for success. McCain has a lot of foreign policy inexperience despite his age. If he didn't have Joe Lieberman standing over his shoulder at all times, he would be lost. I really can't think of any glaring errors that Obama has made in foreign relations right now, can you? In the debates and at campaign events, he regularly pointed out where McCain's foreign policy is hindered by his unwillingness to get involved in the regional and situational specifics, and that's really important, especially in this brand of warfare that we now face.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Fair enough. I hadn't planned on doing exhaustive research on the candidates' foreign policy knowledge, so I'll take your word for it and leave Ack to do the counter-arguing.