Oh I agree, Sharon's no better than a terrorist. However, I think one has to understand the gravity of the situaiton before they lay all the blame on Sharon.
Yasser Arafat RIP
- Thread starter IOfTheStorm
- Start date
Ayeka
Hell Bent For Leather!
In my eyes, Arafat didn't so much as oppose the Israelis and help push the case of his own people, he just seemed to get in the way. While it's good not to let the Israelis have everything (anything?) their own way, he didn't really do it in a manner that helped his own cause as much as he should've.
I might do some revision on the Middle East soon...I gave up following everything awhile back cos it just drove me mad. This would be the time to refresh my memory.
I might do some revision on the Middle East soon...I gave up following everything awhile back cos it just drove me mad. This would be the time to refresh my memory.
JayKeeley
Be still, O wand'rer!
Well, not that I'm an expert but you can't really base it all on one 45 year old Palestinian. Regardless of what his opinion is on Arafat, I'm sure he would want Palestine to exist as its own nation. And if he doesn't then I would suspect that he's a closet Jew. You know, these rabbis and mullahs look alike sometimes.speed said:
Anyway, I personally think Arafat held back the peace process behind the scenes, even though he did win a Nobel Peace Prize when Bill Clinton was in power. Thing is, there is so much hatred, it doesn't matter who ends up leading the nation.
Clinton was the closest outsider to helping secure peace in the middle east.
Actually, I think I have this pegged.General Zod said:
Freedom Fighter = will fight until a compromise is met and his land and people are free. Ultimately wants peace.
Terrorist = will fight blindly, and continue to fight even after compromise is offered. Ultimately wants every Jew dead.
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
I like that, but still think terrorist v. freedom fighter is merely semantics. If you support their cause, they are a freedom fighter. If you don't, they are a terrorsist.
Erik
New Metal Member
J.
Old Fart
I don't think so. I agree with JayK's definitions. A freedom fighter will fight until Palestine has its own state (which it should). A terrorist is one that, even if Palestine acheives its own state, will keep bombing and attacking Israel.
This goes for Israel as well.
This goes for Israel as well.
Erik
New Metal Member
So tell me... How do you know who's a freedom fighter and who's a terrorist before Palestine is its own state?
J.
Old Fart
Before they acheive it? I really wouldn't know.
After they acheive it? That's easy.
I fear though, that once they do acheive their own state, the violence will not stop. Either you'll have these Palestinians wanted even more, or you'll have Israelis holding them back as usual in some way or another.
But to answer your question; I don't know.
After they acheive it? That's easy.
I fear though, that once they do acheive their own state, the violence will not stop. Either you'll have these Palestinians wanted even more, or you'll have Israelis holding them back as usual in some way or another.
But to answer your question; I don't know.
Erik
New Metal Member
Right, so it follows that your definition of who is a "freedom fighter" and who is a "terrorist" is completely and utterly useless for now.
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
haha, I said terrorsist. Either way, I stick to my semantics argument, especially considering that the so-called terrorists might continually fight for freedom even after a Palestinian state is established, the whole "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" problem.
Pat Buchanan article on terrorist v. freedom fighter: http://antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=2141
Pat Buchanan article on terrorist v. freedom fighter: http://antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=2141
J.
Old Fart
For now, yes.Erik said:Right, so it follows that your definition of who is a "freedom fighter" and who is a "terrorist" is completely and utterly useless for now.
J.
Old Fart
That's exactly it. THey will, hopefully, acheive their own state, which is what they are fighting for. So once they get that, these "freedom fighters" (who now have what they want) will find something to fight about. SO when does a "freedom fighter" cease to be just that, and become a terrorist?One Inch Man said:
Papa Josh
Minister of Propaganda
If Arafat is a "terrorist," then so is Bush. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I've been out of town and away from the net for a few days, sorry for being late to this one.General Zod said:
And I agree, they are ALL assholes, but saying we're better or ISrael is better because we lead military strikes and not suicide bombing missions is ridiculous. That's like comparing Charlie Manson and an everyday murderer. Two sides of the same coin, except one has the genius/insanity to get others to do his dirty work, whereas the other just goes it alone.
Papa Josh
Minister of Propaganda
A nice long article about Arafat, supporting what my palestinian friend told me a few days ago:
In the weeks leading up to Palestinian President Yassir Arafat?s death American politicians and pundits have repeatedly called on the Palestinian people to use the opportunity of his passing to transform the intifada from a violent uprising into a non-violent, democratic and pragmatic program for achieving independence. This is very good advice, needless to say, except for one small problem: Palestinians have been trying to build such a movement for the last two decades, and the Israeli Government, IDF and American policy-makers have done everything possible to make sure it could not be heeded.
One of the first exponents of Palestinian non-violence the Palestinian-American doctor Mubarak Awad, founded the Palestinian Centre for the Study of Nonviolence in 1985. His innovative ideas and training of Palestinians in the tactics of non-violent resistance to the occupation was considered dangerous enough by Israel that it expelled him from the land of his birth in 1988. During the same period, the government supported the rise to power of militant religious groups such as Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO (which that year recognized Israel?s right to exist).
By the time the first intifada wound down in the early 1990s Jewish/Israeli-Palestinian ?dialog? or ?people-to-people? groups had become all the rage, most of whom had as an important goal building relationships of trust and solidarity that could help Palestinians build a viable political future. Unfortunately, while liberal Israelis were busy sharing hummus with their new Palestinian friends successive Likud and Labor governments accelerated the pace of land confiscation, settlement construction and economic closure of the Territories, which ultimately left many Palestinians to wonder if all the conversation wasn?t a ruse to keep them occupied while Israel permanently secured its hold on their lands.
But mid-way through the Oslo era hope was still in the air. In January 1996 I sat on the terrace of a friend?s house in Abu Dis as about 100 meters away Yaser Arafat cast his vote in perhaps the greatest day in the history of Palestinian nationalism: the elections for the presidency and Legislative Assembly. Unfortunately, soon after the elections the CIA and Shin Bet began what seemed like weekly meetings with the ?security? officials of the Palestinian Authority. The stated reasons were always to ?coordinate security;? the real reason was to make sure the new Assembly was still born because newly elected legislators promised to investigate PA corruption and push for a final settlement more in line with the desire of Palestinian society.
Needless to say, the Assembly didn?t make it. In its place, however, Hamas did quite well, precisely because it constituted perhaps the only powerful voice of dissent against the emerging status quo of corruption and continued occupation.
Since the outbreak of the ?al-Aksa intifada? in September 2000 most Palestinians I know--and increasingly, their comrades in the Israeli peace movement--have exerted incredible energy trying to build grass roots non violent movements that could somehow check the inexorable advance of the occupation and the slow death of the national dream of an independent state. The response by the Israeli military has often been brutal. Not just Palestinian activists, but foreign peace activists and even Israelis are routinely beaten, arrested, deported, and even killed by the IDF, with little fear that the Government of Israel would pay a political price for crushing non-violent resistance with violent means.
In this environment the very act of going about ones daily life without losing all hope and ?joining Hamas? (something former Prime Minister Barak admitted he would have done if he were Palestinian) has become perhaps the supreme, if unheralded, act of non-violence against the occupation. The Israeli Government is quite aware of this, which is why it does its best to make daily life as difficult as possible for Palestinians.
Not surprisingly considering this dynamic, a poll I helped direct earlier this year revealed that Hamas has now surpassed the PLO as the most popular Palestinian political movement. But what of the courageous Palestinians who still believe in non-violence, who are risking their lives working with Israeli peace activists to fulfill the fading Oslo dream of two states living side by side in peace? We could ask this question to Ahmed Awad, founder of the non-violent Committee for the Popular Struggle against the Separation Fence, which has brought Palestinian and Israeli activists together in a relatively successful campaign to redirect the separation wall away from local olive groves. In the process his group has become a model for grass-roots, non-violent struggle.
Unfortunately, we?d have to wait at least three months for an answer, as Awad has just been jailed without charge by a military court on the accusation he constituted a ?threat to security.? The judge who handed down the order hoped that his detention would lead him to ?turn away from th[is] bad road with its unhappy ending,? although its hard to see whom his stated goal of ?letting the world understand that there can be coexistence between us and the Jews? threatened. In the meantime, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reports that the army has stepped up violence and aggression against protesters in order to enable the fence to proceed along its original route.
And on it goes. As the Bush Administration and America?s pundocracy search for a new generation of pragmatic and non-violent Palestinian leaders, they should be heartened to know that they won?t have to look very hard to find them. But that?s because so many are either in the hospital, jail or exile. And like Arafat shriveling away in his besieged Muqata?a (which will now be his tomb), the Palestinian peace movement will continue to wither as long as Israel is more comfortable confronting Hamas than Ahmed Awad.
In the weeks leading up to Palestinian President Yassir Arafat?s death American politicians and pundits have repeatedly called on the Palestinian people to use the opportunity of his passing to transform the intifada from a violent uprising into a non-violent, democratic and pragmatic program for achieving independence. This is very good advice, needless to say, except for one small problem: Palestinians have been trying to build such a movement for the last two decades, and the Israeli Government, IDF and American policy-makers have done everything possible to make sure it could not be heeded.
One of the first exponents of Palestinian non-violence the Palestinian-American doctor Mubarak Awad, founded the Palestinian Centre for the Study of Nonviolence in 1985. His innovative ideas and training of Palestinians in the tactics of non-violent resistance to the occupation was considered dangerous enough by Israel that it expelled him from the land of his birth in 1988. During the same period, the government supported the rise to power of militant religious groups such as Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO (which that year recognized Israel?s right to exist).
By the time the first intifada wound down in the early 1990s Jewish/Israeli-Palestinian ?dialog? or ?people-to-people? groups had become all the rage, most of whom had as an important goal building relationships of trust and solidarity that could help Palestinians build a viable political future. Unfortunately, while liberal Israelis were busy sharing hummus with their new Palestinian friends successive Likud and Labor governments accelerated the pace of land confiscation, settlement construction and economic closure of the Territories, which ultimately left many Palestinians to wonder if all the conversation wasn?t a ruse to keep them occupied while Israel permanently secured its hold on their lands.
But mid-way through the Oslo era hope was still in the air. In January 1996 I sat on the terrace of a friend?s house in Abu Dis as about 100 meters away Yaser Arafat cast his vote in perhaps the greatest day in the history of Palestinian nationalism: the elections for the presidency and Legislative Assembly. Unfortunately, soon after the elections the CIA and Shin Bet began what seemed like weekly meetings with the ?security? officials of the Palestinian Authority. The stated reasons were always to ?coordinate security;? the real reason was to make sure the new Assembly was still born because newly elected legislators promised to investigate PA corruption and push for a final settlement more in line with the desire of Palestinian society.
Needless to say, the Assembly didn?t make it. In its place, however, Hamas did quite well, precisely because it constituted perhaps the only powerful voice of dissent against the emerging status quo of corruption and continued occupation.
Since the outbreak of the ?al-Aksa intifada? in September 2000 most Palestinians I know--and increasingly, their comrades in the Israeli peace movement--have exerted incredible energy trying to build grass roots non violent movements that could somehow check the inexorable advance of the occupation and the slow death of the national dream of an independent state. The response by the Israeli military has often been brutal. Not just Palestinian activists, but foreign peace activists and even Israelis are routinely beaten, arrested, deported, and even killed by the IDF, with little fear that the Government of Israel would pay a political price for crushing non-violent resistance with violent means.
In this environment the very act of going about ones daily life without losing all hope and ?joining Hamas? (something former Prime Minister Barak admitted he would have done if he were Palestinian) has become perhaps the supreme, if unheralded, act of non-violence against the occupation. The Israeli Government is quite aware of this, which is why it does its best to make daily life as difficult as possible for Palestinians.
Not surprisingly considering this dynamic, a poll I helped direct earlier this year revealed that Hamas has now surpassed the PLO as the most popular Palestinian political movement. But what of the courageous Palestinians who still believe in non-violence, who are risking their lives working with Israeli peace activists to fulfill the fading Oslo dream of two states living side by side in peace? We could ask this question to Ahmed Awad, founder of the non-violent Committee for the Popular Struggle against the Separation Fence, which has brought Palestinian and Israeli activists together in a relatively successful campaign to redirect the separation wall away from local olive groves. In the process his group has become a model for grass-roots, non-violent struggle.
Unfortunately, we?d have to wait at least three months for an answer, as Awad has just been jailed without charge by a military court on the accusation he constituted a ?threat to security.? The judge who handed down the order hoped that his detention would lead him to ?turn away from th[is] bad road with its unhappy ending,? although its hard to see whom his stated goal of ?letting the world understand that there can be coexistence between us and the Jews? threatened. In the meantime, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reports that the army has stepped up violence and aggression against protesters in order to enable the fence to proceed along its original route.
And on it goes. As the Bush Administration and America?s pundocracy search for a new generation of pragmatic and non-violent Palestinian leaders, they should be heartened to know that they won?t have to look very hard to find them. But that?s because so many are either in the hospital, jail or exile. And like Arafat shriveling away in his besieged Muqata?a (which will now be his tomb), the Palestinian peace movement will continue to wither as long as Israel is more comfortable confronting Hamas than Ahmed Awad.
JayKeeley
Be still, O wand'rer!
Sometimes freedom fighters don't always kill - they just threaten to kill. Terrorists always aim to kill, no matter what.
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
