7thson and Jim -->

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Mr. Hyde

Guitar, Bass
Apr 27, 2001
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Hey guys, I was wondering. This is probably going to be some of the dumbest things anyone has asked either of you about singing but I'm going to do it anyway.:)

1. When you sing bruce's stuff are you using a falsetto at all or are you able to actually sing that high in your natural voice?

2. When you sing are you really loud like you are yelling at someone or is it just above speaking volume?

3. When you scream like on Killers does it hurt your throat?

I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out how to do some more things with my voice and I'd appreciate some info on how you guys do it.
 
Would you take some advice from me? I think I know the answer to the questions. At least I know from my own singing experience and working with others. I've had a couple off-line conversations with Jim...who went to a very expensive vocal instructor, so I know he would agree with at least some of what I am about to say.

1. no falsetto. When somebody sings falsetto, you know it. Your voice must get that high. But...there is a difference in singing in your 'head voice' and singing straight from your diaphragm. Your head voice is when you force constrict your throat and most of the sound is coming from that. This is how you get the higher notes...people who are better at it are pros. It is very hard on your voice.

2. In between...or I guess it depends on what you consider yelling. Lets put it this way, if Bruce was recording his takes next to you in a car, it would get rather annoying after awhile. He would be pretty freaking loud in your ear. You can't get enough power to make your head voice sound good and strong at speaking volumes.

3. Some. You definately could not keep it up all day. Its not a sharp pain....its more like your throat just gets tired after awhile.
 
when sing iam freaking loud:lol:
and when i used to play out years ago hehe and i hit a high note.
that is when every one in the bar would stop look and listen..
my high notes the belting ones are the most loudest it comes deep from with in the diaphragm its very forcefull but yet the throat is relaxed..
it is by in no way yelling more like a scream....

i used to practice to the likes of halford,tate and the king of high notes king diamond! :headbang:
which we have yet to do any of the above:cry:
numbers should be fun:D
 
Are you guys saying that Geoff Tate isn't using a falsetto on Take hold of the Flame? He has to be, I think.
The singer from the cover band I mentioned in the other thread was extremely loud. This is no joke he was so loud that he would walk off the stage in front of the main speakers (this is in a bar mind you so not extremely loud) and people would get startled by his voice over the sound of the PA. I tried several times to have a serious talk with him about his technique and such but he didn't really like to talk about that kind of stuff.

It's hard to describe what I mean by loud on a message board but when I sang crazy train I was pretty loud. The thing is my voice doesn't sound like I was singing that way. If I do a scream like Halford on Victim of Changes it's really loud and I sound like I'm singing loud, but other times I can be loud and still sound like I'm not when I record it. I've never taken formal voice lessons but I have a couple of books and some tapes but some of the information seems like a contradiction to me. They say that people like Bruce and Tate have a perfectly blended falsetto that they can make sound like their natural range voice so we don't notice it when they cross over. Others say that they are just gifted with a naturally wide ranges.

So 7thson your voice naturally can sing the note like on To tame a land where you sing "Ruler of the STAAAAAARRRRRSSSS" ? That's Cool man I wish I could. I have to use a Falsetto to hit that...sometimes it sounds good but usually it's pretty uninspiring.:lol:
 
Originally posted by rabies
Would you take some advice from me? I think I know the answer to the questions. At least I know from my own singing experience and working with others. I've had a couple off-line conversations with Jim...who went to a very expensive vocal instructor, so I know he would agree with at least some of what I am about to say.

1. no falsetto. When somebody sings falsetto, you know it. Your voice must get that high. But...there is a difference in singing in your 'head voice' and singing straight from your diaphragm. Your head voice is when you force constrict your throat and most of the sound is coming from that. This is how you get the higher notes...people who are better at it are pros. It is very hard on your voice.

2. In between...or I guess it depends on what you consider yelling. Lets put it this way, if Bruce was recording his takes next to you in a car, it would get rather annoying after awhile. He would be pretty freaking loud in your ear. You can't get enough power to make your head voice sound good and strong at speaking volumes.

3. Some. You definately could not keep it up all day. Its not a sharp pain....its more like your throat just gets tired after awhile.
Click to expand...

So when are you going to give us a track Rabies? I know you would sing in key and all.
 
I am not sure about the song. Dunno it. I've heard a couple of Queensryche songs where Geoff purposly uses falsetto. I don't think I have ever heard Bruce.

I don't buy the perfectly blended falsetto. Unless that is what Jim means by a 'head voice'. You cannot get the kind of power you need with a falsetto. What book did you get that says that? Sound like the kind of book i would be interested in reading.

When you say screaming loud, I think shrieking/piercing. The kind of loud I mean is like you said about your friend. People sit up and take notice. Its loud man...loud...but smooth..and in tune, and not piercing..so it does not sound loud.

Have you seen the Movie Rock God (or whatever)? The movie based on the Judas Priest story? In that, they show a scene where Mark Wahlberg (SP?) is in the front row of the audience singing along with the band...and he is so freaking loud and powerful that he throws the singer of the band off cause he is carrying over the PA system. Its a tad bit unrealistic, if you have ever been to a real heavy metal concert, but it does convey the message of how loud these guys get.

I'm about with you Hyde. My voice is too 'clean' to be used in heavy metal. I have a pretty strong range too. I always wanted to sing better. I can hit the high notes pretty easy...like the stars thing...without falsetto. My problem has always been there is a 'gap' in my high voice and low...so transitioning between them is rather unsightly. I should probably sing on something so you guys can hear...:p
 
Originally posted by Mr. Hyde


So when are you going to give us a track Rabies? I know you would sing in key and all.
Click to expand...

When I can convice the wife that buying a microphone is a necessary expense. ;) :rolleyes:

She ain't buying it.... any ideas?
 
Um...you might try something like this...

Honey...the Shure SM58 is a really good mic and it's only around $99 dollars. That's only one dollar a year for the next 99 years!:lol:
 
Originally posted by rabies
I am not sure about the song. Dunno it. I've heard a couple of Queensryche songs where Geoff purposly uses falsetto. I don't think I have ever heard Bruce.

I don't buy the perfectly blended falsetto. Unless that is what Jim means by a 'head voice'. You cannot get the kind of power you need with a falsetto. What book did you get that says that? Sound like the kind of book i would be interested in reading.

When you say screaming loud, I think shrieking/piercing. The kind of loud I mean is like you said about your friend. People sit up and take notice. Its loud man...loud...but smooth..and in tune, and not piercing..so it does not sound loud.

Have you seen the Movie Rock God (or whatever)? The movie based on the Judas Priest story? In that, they show a scene where Mark Wahlberg (SP?) is in the front row of the audience singing along with the band...and he is so freaking loud and powerful that he throws the singer of the band off cause he is carrying over the PA system. Its a tad bit unrealistic, if you have ever been to a real heavy metal concert, but it does convey the message of how loud these guys get.

I'm about with you Hyde. My voice is too 'clean' to be used in heavy metal. I have a pretty strong range too. I always wanted to sing better. I can hit the high notes pretty easy...like the stars thing...without falsetto. My problem has always been there is a 'gap' in my high voice and low...so transitioning between them is rather unsightly. I should probably sing on something so you guys can hear...:p
Click to expand...

You've never head Take hold of the flame? Killer song. I'm bummed though I can't find my Queensryche Warning or Rage for order tapes and I want to hear them now.

The book is called the Rock n roll singers survival manual. I'm not sure if I'm quoting exactly from it though. The author Mark Baxter does a Faq on the net and he answers a lot of peoples voice questions I may have picked that idea up from another source. The book is excellent though.

What I'm wondering I guess is whether these singers are loud because they've totally mastered placement and learned how to use their resonance to it's fullest or if they really are just belting it out. I've read that singers that belt it out on a consistent basis don't last long.
Plus I don't see how you can belt it out like that and still get the subtle qualities and breathy textures that these guys get in the same songs where they sound unhumanly powerful. Like on infinite dreams where Bruce is pretty much whispering on a couple of those words at the beginning and then he starts his usual routine. I know compression helps but I would think that if he were truly just belting out the next part that the compression would have to be so severe that it would totally ruin the sound.

I just quickly checked that book for that section but I wasn't able to find it. I did find that I'm not using the authors terminology correctly. He calls the natural range a chest voice and the next above a head voice. He defines a falsetto as something totally different. According to his definition the falsetto would have an airy sounding quality because the vocal folds aren't completely closed. I guess this means that when I'm singing up high and the notes are pure without a lot of air that I'm not using a falsetto but a "head voice" Whatever...this stuff gets too confusing to remember sometimes.
 
Yes! I must have this book.

I understand exactly what hte author is saying. I know the difference between my chest voice and head voice very, very well. Falsetto is something completely different.

If you have a strong head voice, hitting those high notes is not really that difficult. It is not very straining at all...not like screaming...

In infinite dreams..compression would help. But he can probably sing the low part with a lot of force. It would be much louder than a person talking.

I've know I have heard the song..as I have all their albums..its just not fresh in my head.

As I stated before, I have a major problem transitioning from my chest voice to head. I'd like to see if he has any tips on that. There are very specific notes in between that are very, very hard for me to sing...and not sound like complete crap.
 
Hey!

Mark's book is great. He is the guy I took the lesson from in NYC. $120 an hour I believe it was....

Yes - Tate (and Halford) are singing in falsetto. There are 4 natural ranges in a persons voice - chest, head, falsetto, and one other (??? not used for singing). Great singers can transition into and out of each so smoothly that you don't notice. AND great singers are singing in falsetto with power.

Tate is more obvious, especially in Take Hold of the Flame. Halford is less obvious, and thus probably a better singer because of it. If you listen to the opening to Resurrection, the opening lines 'resurrection' are falsetto.

The one thing I took away from Mark that wsa worth every penny is that to reach the limits of your range you have to loosen up, not tighten up, which is the natural reaction. A second thing is that there are vocal exercises you can do to condition your voice to hit pitch correctly. Especially through the transitions ov voices. Another thing to concider is the power your using. Great singers can transition between all 3 voices at low-medium-high power. That is incredibly hard! I certainly can't do it.

I think there may be some misconception out there about falsetto. Some singers can be singing in falsetto, sound perfectly natural, and not even realize they are singing in falsetto. I can tell you that any singer singing in the some of the ranges that Halford, Tate, and Diamond hit are singing in falsetto. Including Halford, Tate, and Diamond.

All the stuff I have sung for the IMG has been in head voice (with minimal exceptions). I believe almost all of Bruces stuff is sung in head voice.

I'd be happy to share what little knowledge I have on the subject if you have some specific questions. I can tell you Mark's book covers everything I could tell you, and more.

Rabs - a rich man like you should surely be able to swing $100 for a mic! If your looking for a good cheap vocal mic, the AudioTechnia Midnight Blue AT4000 (I think?) is under $100 and is a condensor. Check it out.
 
Wow.

Well..I guess I had a lot of misconceptions myself.

What is the difference between head and falsetto?

I guess for me, my head voice is weak then. I can sing low stuff just fine...I can sing really high stuff just fine....its that area in between that is very hard on my throat..as I can feel it constricting. This is the area I need work. Maybe that is why I have a tough time singing Maiden...and a slightly easier time singing Priest. Does he outline the exercises in the book?

This is one of those things were i wish we could all sit down face to face...it would be easier with a demonstration! :p

Thanks for correcting me on a few things mate. I guess I'll shut up and go back to playing guitar! ;) :cry:
 
Originally posted by rabies
Wow.

Well..I guess I had a lot of misconceptions myself.

What is the difference between head and falsetto?

I guess for me, my head voice is weak then. I can sing low stuff just fine...I can sing really high stuff just fine....its that area in between that is very hard on my throat..as I can feel it constricting. This is the area I need work. Maybe that is why I have a tough time singing Maiden...and a slightly easier time singing Priest. Does he outline the exercises in the book?



:
Click to expand...
yes the transitioning is the hardest..
and yes priest is easier to sing then maiden
to me bruce's voice is the toughest act to follow...
i beleave even he has lost his range from time to time.
at one point he started sounding like ac/dc:eek:
 
Thanks for that info jim. I'm still a little uncertain between the difference between head voice and falsetto.

To me it's always sounded like Kind Diamond sings really high but it's not that powerful, where Halford really seems to go for it. Like on the end of Exciter.

I have to let all of this sink in for a while. Then I'll come back with some more questions.


:lol:
 
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