A Little Advice, if you Please...

Mr Samsara

Mr Samsara

Misanthropic Moderator
Jul 9, 2004
1,564
8
38
Carrying a Burden Inside
sup all. Since many of you are into the music I seem to enjoy most, even though I enjoy music of all type other than Hip Hop which gives me the runs, I thought I would pick your brains. I want to learn guitar. I have a friend who has been playing for years and has played in punk and metal bands for years. I am ignorant about his technical prowess, but he can play and I believe he can play well. He has volunteered to teach me. We are supposed to get together 1 time a month for a couple hours so he can teach me some stuff that I can practice. He once loaned me a nice electric guitar and a book that sat in my home office for a few months and I could not touch it. no amp, and a book. I just could not get myself to try with a book. I recently burned him a copy of BWP and Damnation as an intro to Opeth hoping he could pick some riffs that could get me started as I cannot think of better inspiration, and he seems to be liking BWP.. not sure if he has even listened to Damnation yet. So, here are a couple questions for y'all

1. I don't have a guitar. If I buy a piece of crap cheap from a private party or a pawn shop (because I'm broke), will I be sorry later? He said that he could help me look for one to buy, but he doesn't have $$ concerns as I do...What should I be looking for? what about this?
2. should I be getting an acoustic to start? or electric ok from the beginning?
3. is it hard to learn how to read tabs? are tabs ok or do they teach you how to play stuff the wrong way? (I mean maybe they are inaccurate)
4. Can you suggest music that rocks that also maybe easy to play? especially Opeth, PT type stuff? He says I should be starting with "Smoke on the Water" and "Ironman"..
5. Am I crazy? Am I in violation of any board rules for asking this here? if so, I'm sorry

Thanks in advance for any advice, tips, etc..
 
I can say you've picked the right instrument :)

1. This one's a classic. Personally I believe that it's better to purchase a quality guitar at once. Not only are they much easier to play with, but also does their value not sink as it does with the cheap guitars, so if you discover that guitar wasn't your instrument after all you can sell it for decent price. However it's always a big investment to buy a good guitar. If you don't feel very devoted or motivated the cheap one might be your pick. It might happend, though, that after a year you're already regretting that you didn't buy that Jackson at once. For 500-600$ you can nowadays get a well-playing guitar.

2. I learned to play with an acoustic, and I think that has only brought advantages compared to those who struggled with their Epiphones. It is definitely easier to change from acoustic to electric than the other way round. What happends too easily with the electric and a beginner is that s/he ends up playing power chords with no technique to fingerpick nor to play chords. A good acoustic guitar doesnät have to cost more than 100$.

3. I can tell you that tabs are way easier to learn that actual scores. The biggest disadvantage is that they don't show you the tempo, but that's usually a minor issue when you are learning songs you already know. Many tabs are definitely inaccurate, but it's not difficult to find one's that sound accurate.

4. They're indeed the classic starters. IMO it's better if you learn to play usual chords first, and switch fast from one to another. When you master this you'll find it almost boring to play simple power chord-driven songs such like the two you mentioned. Most of the opeth songs might be a bit difficult for beginners, "Patterns in the ivy" is good training when you're learning to fingerpick and "A Fair Judgement" has fairly simple power chord riffs (and the acoustic in the middle is not too hard either).
 
Eemu said:
I can say you've picked the right instrument :)

1. This one's a classic. Personally I believe that it's better to purchase a quality guitar at once. Not only are they much easier to play with, but also does their value not sink as it does with the cheap guitars, so if you discover that guitar wasn't your instrument after all you can sell it for decent price. However it's always a big investment to buy a good guitar. If you don't feel very devoted or motivated the cheap one might be your pick. It might happend, though, that after a year you're already regretting that you didn't buy that Jackson at once. For 500-600$ you can nowadays get a well-playing guitar.

2. I learned to play with an acoustic, and I think that has only brought advantages compared to those who struggled with their Epiphones. It is definitely easier to change from acoustic to electric than the other way round. What happends too easily with the electric and a beginner is that s/he ends up playing power chords with no technique to fingerpick nor to play chords. A good acoustic guitar doesnät have to cost more than 100$.

3. I can tell you that tabs are way easier to learn that actual scores. The biggest disadvantage is that they don't show you the tempo, but that's usually a minor issue when you are learning songs you already know. Many tabs are definitely inaccurate, but it's not difficult to find one's that sound accurate.

4. They're indeed the classic starters. IMO it's better if you learn to play usual chords first, and switch fast from one to another. When you master this you'll find it almost boring to play simple power chord-driven songs such like the two you mentioned. Most of the opeth songs might be a bit difficult for beginners, "Patterns in the ivy" is good training when you're learning to fingerpick and "A Fair Judgement" has fairly simple power chord riffs (and the acoustic in the middle is not too hard either).
Click to expand...


i pretty much agree on all accounts. good luck with it...dont get too discouraged.
 
that package is a good call man...you don't need much to start out with...and like ninefeet said, don't get discouraged...if you're like me, you'll play a while and get pissed because you can't get past a certain "point." but, once you do, you won't be able to put the guitar down. i guess that "point" determines whether or not the guitar is for you.

as far as tabs go...try to avoid them if you can...try to figure stuff out yourself...you will develope a good ear...which is essential. thats just my opinion.
 
first of all: you seem pretty cool. welcome to the forum.
secondly: as much as ninefeetunderground hates me: listen to him. he's a bitch but he's also allright. does that makes sense?
 
^heh! sorry about that PM. not sure if I can get more boring that that.
 
I got a Schecter 006 deluxe as my first guitar, and I love it. It was easy to play, and once I get ready to do gigs, it'll serve me well onstage as well as in my bedroom.
It was listed as $500, but I got it for $300 \m/
 
Mr Samsara said:
sup all. Since many of you are into the music I seem to enjoy most, even though I enjoy music of all type other than Hip Hop which gives me the runs, I thought I would pick your brains. I want to learn guitar. I have a friend who has been playing for years and has played in punk and metal bands for years. I am ignorant about his technical prowess, but he can play and I believe he can play well. He has volunteered to teach me. We are supposed to get together 1 time a month for a couple hours so he can teach me some stuff that I can practice. He once loaned me a nice electric guitar and a book that sat in my home office for a few months and I could not touch it. no amp, and a book. I just could not get myself to try with a book. I recently burned him a copy of BWP and Damnation as an intro to Opeth hoping he could pick some riffs that could get me started as I cannot think of better inspiration, and he seems to be liking BWP.. not sure if he has even listened to Damnation yet. So, here are a couple questions for y'all

1. I don't have a guitar. If I buy a piece of crap cheap from a private party or a pawn shop (because I'm broke), will I be sorry later? He said that he could help me look for one to buy, but he doesn't have $$ concerns as I do...What should I be looking for? what about this?
2. should I be getting an acoustic to start? or electric ok from the beginning?
3. is it hard to learn how to read tabs? are tabs ok or do they teach you how to play stuff the wrong way? (I mean maybe they are inaccurate)
4. Can you suggest music that rocks that also maybe easy to play? especially Opeth, PT type stuff? He says I should be starting with "Smoke on the Water" and "Ironman"..
5. Am I crazy? Am I in violation of any board rules for asking this here? if so, I'm sorry

Thanks in advance for any advice, tips, etc..
Click to expand...
1. You most definately will be sorry if you buy a cheap set-up from the get go. Alot of your motivation to play at first is in the sort of sound you can get out of your guitars, and how easy it is for you to master it. If you get a piece of crap that doesn't play well, or sound at least semi-decent, then you'll lose drive to go on playing. This doesn't apply to everyone of course, as I first started playing on a really really really bad budget $100 Casio acoustic guitar. Stuck with that for like 6 months to a year before I got my first electric... the move to electric felt like the best thing in my life.

2. It depends what sort of music you wanna play. If you aspire to be a lead player, or metal rhythm player then an acoustic is more or less no good. Acoustics are great for classical, flamenco, arpeggiated or strummed stuff but the electric is in a totally different ball game. Playing lead guitar, or tight rhythm is totally different to how well you can fingerpick etc. Believe me, I've learned that much through experience. Although, it is also favourable that you be versatile as a guitarist. Acoustics are generally harder to play than electrics and since they have their own way of being played, they can really add to your, sort of, musical repertoire. You will feel a much more versatile guitarist if you don't have to pick up an acoustic at a party to try and play Sepultura's 'Arise' or something. But in the end it really does end up being about what you want to play. Still, I would say to go with an electric. You'll have the versatility to play clean stuff as well as well as crank the distortion and go metal. I've been learning acoustic songs on my electric for years now, and after learning them, I can quickly pick up an acoustic and play them on that.

3. A majority of tabs are wrong in some way, and most of them will also admit it. It's an easy way to start learning songs without having to master standard notation. I feel like standard notation is almost antiquated in today's musical world, and especially to your average metal guitarist. Tabs generally won't give you note values and other such things, but in this day and age of Guitar Pro and Power Tab which can actually play tabs back in MIDI for you, who needs it? But anyhow, on the other end of the spectrum, notation is heavily tied in with actual music theory and scales. You'd want at least a rudimentary knowledge of these when you start playing... it sort of gives you an idea of how music is derived and lets you categorize a series of notes into an already-known 'set' or progression.

4. Opeth is really good to start with. They have a wide variety of guitar in their catalogue. Despite what people might say, they aren't too hard to start out with. I suppose I would recommend getting your fingers adjusted to the guitar before you start with them though, so that means maybe a few weeks of Black Sabbath's 'Paranoid' or the classic 'Smoke on the Water' lick. You'll fast get bored of these though as they're strictly beginner material. Your next logical progression could be something like Orchid, where you have the acoustics interwined with leads/rhythms and it will even give you a feel for counter-point and harmony melodies, because that's what most of the album is.

5. Well, technically, yeah this is in violation of board rules. I've sort of eased up on the mass-deletions out of fear that this community might all spontaneously drop dead from boredom. Not good form for a mod, is it? I don't see this place falling apart from a little off-topic music discussion though... as it is right now, everything is all fine and manageable and people are having more interesting discussions. Still waiting for a slap on the wrist from Opeth.com though :cry:
 
seriously, moonlapse, kotno carrot, and others know their shit.
i asked my buddy who is getting a masters in music at carnegie-mellon (a fucking serious school if there ever was one) and he recommended that i get an ibanez in the $250 range. he seriously knows his shit more than anyone on this board (no offense to anyone) and the guitar has worked out fine. theres a bit of fret buzz and other minor problems but i just play to keep my mental faculties in check.
my brother has been playing guitar for well over ten years and his band has toured the entire michigan-florida corridor. he recently told me he was sick of being poor and is going back to college. my point is - dont rely on music to carry your ass - get a college degree first and then let *it* back up your music. like me: i'm an RN. that license can always carry my ass if i cant make a living in music - no skin off my back. or you could do what moonlapse does and go to music school. sounds like a good idea. anyway, you didnt give any info on where you are in life - you may be a fucking brain surgeon for all i know.
 
Yeah, it's usually a bad career choice to rely on music to carry you. You just can't guarantee that you'll make it... and even if you do, you might be an Opeth and wait 10 years before you're able to live off the music.

By the way, I'm not going to music school, I'm going for an Audio Engineering masters so I can stay involved in music even in my normal line of work.
 
i think in all fairness, its going to take him a bit more than 2 weeks of smoke on the water and paranoid before hes jamming demon of the fall or moonlapse vertigo.

Opeth does have some odd timing and a unique aproach to a lot of riffs which may make you nuts if you just started playing, but i do agree theyre good to get into playing as soon as youre able to...for theyll help you in a sort of "out of the box" technique, and overall give you what youd get out of basic metal/rock riffs like "iron man" or the before mentioned smoke on the water...while gaining more knowledge and technique than you would with that basic stuff.

However, above all, id highly recommend you learning a whole spectrum of stuff...rather than just metal. heres some licks and riffs that everybody knows which will help you recognize certain techniques and fingerings that youll be using a lot:

stairway to heaven (cliched, yes...but thats for a reason)
lynard skynard - sweet home alabama intro lick
metallica - fade to black (intro and riffs)
black sabbath - children of the grave (good groove, helps with galloping style)
the beatles - here comes the sun
the eagles - lyin eyes (any lick from this song...and try jamming improv)
deep purple - soldier of fortune
simon and garfunkel - america
fleetwood mac - sara (mellow, another "jam" song)
slayer - raining blood (this will help with speed and overall metal stamina)

these are just a few personal suggestions...a few that i remember learning back when i started...hopefully they may come in handy to you as well. good luck...post your progress here if youd like as well.
 
^my bad dude! i knew about your audio engineering school but to a novice like me, that translates to "music school". no offense intended of course.
 
one bit of advice i'd give you mr samsara, (although it seems like it's a no-brainer)... when you're learning to play songs, especially when it involves a new techinique (be it strumming, galloping, pinch harmonics, whatever)...MAKE SURE YOU DO IT RIGHT. i've known quite a few "guitarists" who sort of got to something they couldn't do, and never really bothered trying to be able to, and just fudge it. like this one friend of mine, hes been playing maybe a year or two less than myself (ive been playing about 6 years)... but he really hasn't gotten any better. any time a song gets to a galloping part, for instance, instead of doing the correct rhythm, he'll just trem pick the string.

my point is, alot of times when you're sitting playing by yourself, just wildly doing something wrong could sound right to your ears, especially when you're starting out. just take your time, don't try to rush through anything. another good way to refine your skills is to tape yourself. it may sound like your rhythm and timing is perfect when you're sitting there playing with no reference point, but when you record your playing, you really hear how off you were, and it forces you to learn how to stay in time, and all that. it can be a rather humbling experience, let me tell you ;)


anyhow, in reference to your questions... it is alot better starting off with a "good" guitar at $500 or more, but this simply isn't possible for everyone. my first electric guitar was one of those fender/squire starter packs that comes with a shitty guitar and shitty amp etc for like 100 bux at the guitar store. it sounded like shit, but something is better than nothing. although, i did start off playing acoustic guitar first. i remember being frustrated at times, not being able to rock out on my favourite riffs with distortion and whatnot, but i do think that playing acoustic for a year or whatever really did help me as a player. you learn some tecniques and things that are just alot different on electric guitar (though, it is possible to learn). also, once you work your fingers out playing on an acoustic, playing an electric feels like a breeze. conversely, if you start on electric, then pick up an acoustic, it's alot harder.

as for your question about tabs, it's no more difficult than learning anything else. i myself can't really read music well, but tabs are easy. basically each line represents a string of the guitar in the same order as if you had lain the guitar on your lap, and the numbers represent which fret of the guitar the note should be fingered on (with 0 being an open string, all the way up to the 24th fret of each string). any notes directly above eachother are played together as a chord, and ones without any other numbers above them are played individually. once you have seen enough tabs and practiced for a while you start to know what each number will "sound like"

that's enough typing for now, hopefully you'll get something useful out of it :D
 
I can agree to Dorian in this point.

My first guitar was one of the cheaper Ibanez series, too, and it worked well for a year and a half. I then noticed that somehow i was no longer satisfied with it. The overall sound is imo too dull and flat and not based. And it seems like the Cutaway is taking away a lot of volume. Plus the piazzo pickup sucks ass.

It's still a good starting guitar, although, if you play and practice a lot, you'll feel like getting a new one after a few months.
 
Thanks everyone. Excellent feedback and advice. If it helps, I’ll give you all a better idea of whom you are dealing with. I just turned 38 in November. I have a wife whom I’ve been with since early ’93, a 6-year-old daughter (Raven Soleil) and a son (Vaughn Silas) that will be 2 February 2nd. The wife and I have a passion for music and have seen many shows over the years both together and separately as well as before we met. We are well balanced in all aspects of our lives including our musical tastes. Classical, Jazz, Blues, Classic and old School Hip Hop from the early days, Soul, Funk, Metal, Rock, Punk…. Get the idea? I bought 10” & 11” Congas shown here for my wife for our 9th wedding anniversary November 11th as she has always wanted to play.. she’s a rather striking Latin woman lucky for me. My personal tastes gravitate towards heavy shit and I listen to some Opeth usually daily. Through this forum I was able last week to obtain the Guitar.com videos, which I’m going to burn to CD and give to my buddy as well as MAYH, Still Live, Orchid, Morningrise, Deliverance… mostly so he can teach me, but I’d love to get him into the band.. If he likes them for himself, I’ll buy him real copies as thanks for the lessons. My biggest challenge other than financing equipment, as I don’t have a lot of cash…. X-that… I have no cash… but I’m not going to let it get in the way of my quest for guitar competence. I have no intentions of making music my career, going on tour or being a star. I would love to shred some heavy shit before I die however. Got a bit sidetracked there… biggest challenge?.. Time. I have a job and kids and a mortgage.. I am familiar with all the principals of not taking short cuts or getting discouraged. Thanks for what I know is sound advice in those areas and in all the others for that matter. I really appreciate all the encouragement as well. Please keep dropping in ideas here as they come to you. I again really appreciate all the tips etc. but I keep saying that don’t I? I’ll post more later and as things progress.

Out. :devil:
 
Shit. I forgot to mention another thing. Musically, I don’t really think I will suck, but statistically I certainly could. I was in junior high band and orchestra for 5 years. How could that be you say? Was I so retarded that it took me 5 years to get out of 7th and 8th grade? Actually, I was in band in 4th through 8th grade. Unfortunately it was Clarinet that I played. I wanted to play drums, but my parents would have none of that so Clarinet it was. I was 1st chair for 3 years in band and orchestra both and 1st chair in district honor band as well. I’m hardly bragging, but trying to establish that I had some musical training although it was what seems like eons ago. I was great in the classical sense.. put a piece of music in front of me and I could sight read it and play it as it was supposed to be played, but the music selections never touched me like my first rock record, Van Halen’s “Fair Warning”… Let’s see, a Clarinet playing rock fanatic. Needless to say, when my parents decided I had to get out of band for religious reasons (I could not play patriotic nor holiday music), I dropped the instrument completely. There has always been something in the way since that time, and now here I am. I hope to apply some finger dexterity that I had at one time, some crusty old theory back in the cobwebbed recesses of my cranium and mix it with some passion for the music this time and perhaps make some progress in an acceptable time frame. We’ll see. Thanks again..

Out :devil:
 
here's the 1st song you should learn. Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters" beginning. Can't get any more simpler than that!
 
its fucking great that you already have musical experience...remember though, you need to develope a good ear for music. in my opinion, good musicianship is more important than theory...with good musicianship skills, you will learn theory with ease, because theory is just symbols for what makes sense in music.

figure out songs by ear, write songs...whatever feels right to you is what's right...thats where i think that the classical rules of theory can kind of tie you down.

but, after all this...its important to know your theory too...hmmmm

don't listen to anything i just said.
 
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