A recent facination with hard drugs

[JBroll]

Your statements on artificial are still a huge stretch based on an entirely arbitrary distinction and the chart shows a very small sample pool. Also, the fact that certain substances do well to stop pain or play other useful roles doesn't imply that we evolved to take them in - a lot of groups had them basically reserved for shamans and the elite, as far as I recall - because it's also possible that they just did a job we needed done. Did nature design trees to be chisels and screwdrivers?

Of the five items farthest to the left of your chart, two are derived from the same plant and the other three are 'artificial'; also of interest is that of the five highest (most addictive) on the chart three are extractions very close to compounds actually found in plants, one is 'artificial', and the last is a whole category of substances.

As I said before, while I agree with you on legalizing 'natural drugs' (as a subset of 'drugs') I can't stand this 'natural is better!' garbage and you're not backing your claims well. You're still putting up an arbitrary (and, while we're at it, not clearly marked) line without justifying it well at all. What exactly *is* your definition of natural? How many degrees of separation between the plant and the end product are allowed? How long do chemical names have to be before they're a no-no? Most importantly, how the hell is anything we - as a *part* of nature, using *natural* intelligence derived for our evolutionary benefit to further our species - do unnatural?

As for the last section... do you mean to imply that I don't have a life or socialize? (Although it may sound otherwise, that's not quite true - and even if it were, it wouldn't make you look any better.) I don't spend my hours reading up on them myself, but a combination of retaining a little bit of the background of the math I know (even remembering basics from *elementary school* would have saved you there) and not shooting my mouth off so much when I don't know what I'm talking about keeps me from making statements like yours. I don't know if you think of yourself as 'too cool for school', but the proper response to 'I said something that was wrong in several different ways' is not of the form 'I have a life!' and that lack of care makes everything else you've posted more likely to attract suspicion and doubt.

Ancient people did well considering how little they had to build on, but in the modern age we're moving exponentially faster in a way that's not even possible to explain if you don't know enough of either their achievements or our current status - it's been over 60 years since we figured out how to break apart the building blocks of everything we see and touch to produce energy, and our progress since then easily destroys the thousands of years these ancient cultures had.

Jeff

 

[FarBeyondMetal]

JBrolled. /Thread.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

if it was just a role that we created, would we have ever evovled to have these recpetors? I think not. But we can't foget how many thousands of years it takes for the evolution process to take place. Considering that from a social darwinism point of view, the design of our bodies is one of the most flawed of all the animal kingdom, and we manage to surive based on how we have been able to compensate with our intellectual properties and technology. As the point i stated by Richard Dawkins, Evolution cannot go backward, only foward, if ther is a flaw, it will only be a matter of time before that gene pool finds a way around the flaw. But with the whol evolution theory of being able to take in certain foods and substances is backed by the fact that some speices of animals can eat plants and animals that would be normally fatal or extremely harmful to us.

I never implied that natural is better, and I think that way of thinking is dangerous simply becuase natural can devistate your health just as easily as as any artifical substance. The fact of the matter is that when you look at the previous chart that I posted earlier, all drugs more harmful than alcohol are artifical, the whole concept of having natural substances legal is becuase typically on the scale, they will be less harmful to your health than alcohol and tobacco if used responsibly. The disticntion of what is artifical is any natural substance that has been extracted in pure form and chimically altered. That goes very well for food as well and thats the hug distinction on what is and is not organic.

I am not trying to be a pompous asshole by all means, it just irks the crap out of me whan I see someone blatantly and rudely calling people wrong in a debate when no other person is doing the same to that individual, the overly righteous politically correct no it all that is constantly putting people down, crying for others to cite their statements while citing no statements himself seems pretty hypocritical, whether you are right or not, it comes off as extremely hostile. For that I am truly sorry that no one here is as smart as you claim yourself to be, I am not one to say that I am smarter than anyone else, nor do I put them down when I feel that an indicudual is wrong IMO regardless if I am right or wrong.

And where the hell do they teach you in school about the historiy of mathematicians and scientists beyond plato, socrates, aristotle, galileo and da vinci? I sure as never had any history lecture in any of my math classes and my elementary years were in a small hickville town in the south where the education was behind a few years, if your talking about basic math skills, that has nothing to do with the knowing of mathmatical discoveries.

And another thing, all my points that I have stated are merely the myths of spoken word, articles in magazines newspapers, radio scoops, TV documentaries, cited wikipedia websites as well as various other websites found through search engines, general public education (elementary school), high school health education, anti-drug groups and government propaganda (which I really don't buy any of their crap to begin with but I will put it up anyway) are all wrong according to you. Of course I am not familiarized with all the modern studies, but I am going off the genral consensus of our society

 

[Harry Hughes]

I spend a fuck load of my time at home just reading and playing guitar/bass guitar and often get accused of having no life. But yes I do go to parties, I'm not a virgin, girls regularly come to visit me and I'm in a band and I jam with others regularly.
Some people by nature, like myself, just prefer that kind of lifestyle and because of that the majority of my time (maybe 60-70 per cent-ish) is made up of reading stuff, guitar, internet forums etc while the other remaining time is taken up by the aforementioned social activities.
Also, when I can be bothered I'm going to write about my first experience with LSD in this thread later. That shit rules in retrospect, despite at the time having had a bad experience with it.

 

[SocialNumb]

I spend a fuck load of my time at home just reading and playing guitar/bass guitar and often get accused of having no life. But yes I do go to parties, I'm not a virgin, girls regularly come to visit me and I'm in a band and I jam with others regularly.
Some people by nature, like myself, just prefer that kind of lifestyle and because of that the majority of my time (maybe 60-70 per cent-ish) is made up of reading stuff, guitar, internet forums etc while the other remaining time is taken up by the aforementioned social activities.
Also, when I can be bothered I'm going to write about my first experience with LSD in this thread later. That shit rules in retrospect, despite at the time having had a bad experience with it.

Cool story bro.

 

[JBroll]

I never implied that natural is better, and I think that way of thinking is dangerous simply becuase natural can devistate your health just as easily as as any artifical substance. The fact of the matter is that when you look at the previous chart that I posted earlier, all drugs more harmful than alcohol are artifical, the whole concept of having natural substances legal is becuase typically on the scale, they will be less harmful to your health than alcohol and tobacco if used responsibly. The disticntion of what is artifical is any natural substance that has been extracted in pure form and chimically altered. That goes very well for food as well and thats the hug distinction on what is and is not organic.

Since natural barbiturates exist, and artificial drugs safer than many natural drugs exist, your point is not well-established. As for 'chemically altered'... welcome to reality, where *everything* is chemically altered. Again, this is a distinction that exists only in your mind at this point - *everything* we're talking about is a chemical or collection thereof.

I am not trying to be a pompous asshole by all means, it just irks the crap out of me whan I see someone blatantly and rudely calling people wrong in a debate when no other person is doing the same to that individual, the overly righteous politically correct no it all that is constantly putting people down, crying for others to cite their statements while citing no statements himself seems pretty hypocritical, whether you are right or not, it comes off as extremely hostile. For that I am truly sorry that no one here is as smart as you claim yourself to be, I am not one to say that I am smarter than anyone else, nor do I put them down when I feel that an indicudual is wrong IMO regardless if I am right or wrong.

Keep in mind that I was calling you wrong only where you were clearly and demonstrably wrong.

Also, 'politically correct' describes me no better than 'invisible' or 'prone to wearing striped socks', I don't claim to be particularly smart (and there are some smart fuckers on here anyway) because 'obsessive' is far more responsible for what I'm capable of, 'putting you down' was (as far as I can tell) some combination of calling your claims wrong and requesting clarification in a few places, I would much rather be 'put down' (whatever that means) than politely (or in any matter not of the form 'put down') told that I'm wrong, I have been making few positive claims (and those have either used others' sources - like yours - or gone with something immediately available through Google - like yours aren't) so there isn't too much to cite, and you mistake my tone for hostility when in fact I'm just trying to be as clear and direct as possible. I certainly don't think you're being a pompous asshole, you just come across as one of those New Age nuts who go with cushy, feel-good 'natural' nonsense without having the courtesy to explain what exactly you're talking about. It was suspicious when you started by separating 'natural' drugs from the rest with only a few examples and no clearer definition (or explanation of how what we are or do is 'unnatural'), and it wasn't shaken by the next posts.

And where the hell do they teach you in school about the historiy of mathematicians and scientists beyond plato, socrates, aristotle, galileo and da vinci? I sure as never had any history lecture in any of my math classes and my elementary years were in a small hickville town in the south where the education was behind a few years, if your talking about basic math skills, that has nothing to do with the knowing of mathmatical discoveries.

Those names are really all you need - with that you have Greek mathematics and a good chunk of the 'spark' that rekindled science after it was kept down for centuries by Christendom. The main problem was that you were just pulling something out of thin air when you could have either checked Wikipedia (to see the stunning *four* items in the category 'Roman Mathematics') or left it out altogether. Again, don't mistake my tone for hostility (as I wind up having to explain in most threads because apparently thick skin is being phased out these days) or arrogance (which is surprisingly low once you realize how much of my nonsense is sarcastic self-deprecation) because it's not. I'd rather be right than popular, and when that means sacrificing smarmy, cloying huggity bullshit for clarity it's obvious which path I take.

And another thing, all my points that I have stated are merely the myths of spoken word, articles in magazines newspapers, radio scoops, TV documentaries, cited wikipedia websites as well as various other websites found through search engines, general public education (elementary school), high school health education, anti-drug groups and government propaganda (which I really don't buy any of their crap to begin with but I will put it up anyway) are all wrong according to you. Of course I am not familiarized with all the modern studies, but I am going off the genral consensus of our society

Unfortunately, our society sucks. We need to fix that, and it starts by calling bullshit on everything imaginable. The schools (and much of the media) were bought out long ago; if sex ed and the garbage they call 'math class' in American schools are any indication of how much we can trust them, it would be better if they weren't there in the first place and we do them too much of a service by repeating a word they said.

Jeff

 

[Metaltastic]

like I really care, I don't spend my hours reading up on every mathmetician and scientists and all of their discoveries for fun, I actaully have a life and socialze with normal human beings. My whole point was, the pre modern world was extremely advanced for its time considering the lack of technology and the fact that said drugs were legal and plentiful.

EDIT: And don't come in with the, YOUR WRONG threat like you have been doing to everyone else, its just rude and arrogant since your the only one trying to put people down in a friendly debate, so get off the high horse and have a polite debate. I really thought being as intellectually capable as I am was a burden due to the inept people that populate this world, being as smart as you put yourslef out to be must be really irritating, lonley and extremely anti-social.

Wow, you know you have a strong argument when it includes totally irrelevant personal attacks on the person at the other end, rather than any of the points! :Spin: You're trying to rationalize that it's ok that he's smarter and better informed than you by you "having a life", how 5th grade

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Not really too much to cite though unfortunately, you would have to go to a library and read up on the few books they might have on the topic and then again, not everybody can get the luxury of getting lab test results and other research development on the topic, and as a result have to go by what we are given most of by other means.

I had the problem once that you reminded me of, you are treating people how you would want to be treated, however, its not the norm for most people to think that way of treatment is ok, and as a result you have offended someone without understanding why. Been there more than once, its good to find exceptions on what you want and how you do that to others. Last time I checked most people would rather be politely corrected rather than totally put down and have their self esteem demolished, because when someone buntly calls you wrong and pops off with more correct remarks, makes that person feel stupid and prevents them from wanting to continue. I have been on both sides of that scenario. But yes thick skin is hard to come by outside Texas, especially here in California where everybody is a metrosexual cultured liberal hippy, quite the polar opposite.

I have a quite dark sacrastic sense of humor, but what you are claiming to be sacrasm, might take me awhile to see it.

 

[JBroll]

If people care less about what I say than how I say it, I have no problem with driving them away and would rather keep them at a distance so that useful things can take up my time instead.

Jeff

 

[poidaobi]

 

[JBroll]

That's... a little scary.

Jeff

 

[iekobrid]

if it was just a role that we created, would we have ever evovled to have these recpetors? I think not.

The main alkaloid in opium, morphine, binds with opiod receptors 'designed' to be activated by endogenous (naturally body-produced) neuropeptides like endorphins and dynorphins. The THC in cannabis binds with cannabinoid receptors 'designed' to be activated by endogenous lipids. Hell, even the peppermint used to make menthol triggers the same proteins that make our skin feel cool and soothed when we put ice on an injury.

They simulate the effect of things our body was already capable of doing to itself -- mimic them, amplify them. It is far more likely that mankind imposed 'un-natural' selection by isolating and promoting the growth of plant species found to coincidentally have the desirable ability to pull existing triggers in the human body on demand , while allowing non-beneficial plant species to die off.

 

[tobin1]

It still absolutely destroys me that the more people i see talking about these things, the less all of them actually know about whats going on out there.

They are throwing heroin/crack junkies in jail everyday, but at the same time they are handing out OxyContin (ARTIFICIAL "HEROIN") to every 30yearold+ with back problems. And if anyone says otherwise, you can get OC easier than just about any kind of drug around here, and honestly its BETTER than heroin. And for the kids with ADD (YES, they hand these fucking cocaine pills out to 10 year olds) they go ahead and throw them 30mg tablets of Adderall (IDENTICAL chemical composition of cocaine) to any parent who doesnt want to teach their kid how to pay the fuck attention. Everyone here who falls into this bullshit scheme is ruining our country and our future generations who think its ok for a doctor to prescribe cocaine to a kid that has no fucking clue what they are taking, but at the same time be a supporter of throwing crackheads who actually made the choice to take the drug in jail.

I think its the most redundant fucking thing to see someone say "Fuck all these drugs you lowlifes, im gonna drink a beer!"

FUCK YOU

Those "im better than drug users because i drink alchohol" people fucking piss me off more than anything on the fucking planet. I can do an entire 8ball of cocaine and still be less of a risk than the typical fucking douchebag who just left the bar after 9 shots and kills your cousin in a car wreck. BUT HEY.....ITS "LEGAL"...???

Get real here, does anyone understand how hypocrisy has taken over ALL of our cultures? ALL of our cities? ALL of our countries? Do what the fuck YOU want to do, not what the public PBS announcement says to do. I feel like im one of the last few remaining people on the planet that just wants everyone to understand that if we want to inject something into our bodies, we have the absolute universal right to do so without anyone telling us what the fuck to do. Sorry for the rant but this really is a big subject for me and noone else thinks about these sides to a story.

Kids from age 8 taking pills that speed them up everyday because they wont pay attention having heart trouble at age 20

Adults totaling cars after taking 10 xanex/valium and waking up in jail with no recollection of the event

People committing suicide (hell, theres a giant list that can do that for ya: Zoloft, Xanex, Valium, etc)

Adults/Kids overdosing on OxyContin every single day

At this point not one single fucking person should be worried about random crackheads on the side of the road, they should be worried about that $500Billion dollar Phaarmacy company that is feeding millions of drug fiends every single day.

 

[SocialNumb]

IDK about you guys but I can drink 8-10 beers and as my friends tell me: "Dude I can't even tell you drank beer without smelling your breath"
Now when I add some weed too, thats when things get different. Still, I have the good sense not to put myself or anyone else in danger.

So we all have opinions on the matter. We all react different to the exact same "drug".

My father in law drinks 2 beers and I/we know I/we are going to have to take care of his reckless, obnoxious ass all night.

I'm still to meet a functioning coke head but I know they are out there in the multitude.

 

[Erkan]

HAHA
.
^
Period

 

[Metaltastic]

Bump for lol-factor of above quoted pic

 

[JBroll]

Yeah, what was that all about again? When I see a big picture of myself like that on a webpage, it's usually time to call a lawyer again.

Jeff