Adding presence on the amp vs adding it in post-recording

[Mattayus]

With darker cabs, you tend to have to run the presence on the amp higher. I find with the bigger, oversized cabs, the presence is almost always above 8-9 for me on 5150-type amps.

Is there any benefit and/or difference in recording with a slightly darker tone, then adding some presence to it with EQ later, vs getting the presence captured on the recording from the amp?

 

[~BURNY~]

It will sound different. I don't think there is objective benefit for one over the other, but it's always good practice to try to get the best tone possible from the source imo. If you're not happy with what the presence setting brings to the tone but find it too dark, you can try to get the mic closer or angled towards the dust cap, use a brighter mic, or process it in the DAW or through an outboard EQ. Your call.

 

[Mago]

Whatever works if I don't get it right from the source because of reasons like going closer to the middle and getting nasty spikes, or because raising treble/presence on the amp isn't sounding the way I'd want it to work. Nothing wrong with a hi-shelf I think.

On I side note, I don't even think that the 5150s (minus the evh) even do a lot before 8...everthing for me happens between 8-9, above 9 it get's ugly pretty quick I think.

If you have any outboard EQ you could try to EQ in the FX loop (seriell obv is more suited for that). Never felt the need to do it, but it might get you another flavour.

 

[drew_drummer]

Hasn't been my experience Mago, with my EVH 5153-50watt. I find the presence control pretty effective the whole way through its travel. At home I have it around noonish, at the gig I did on Saturday it was closer to 3 o'clock.

 

[Mago]

....
On I side note, I don't even think that the 5150s (minus the evh)...

 

[Mago]

The EVHs work like I'd like the 5150s to work, control wise for the presence knob.
Treble not so much, imo it's the same as with the the other 5150s.

I guess that's why people think that the evh has more highs than the others...cause you can dial them in more detailed, cause of the area you have to work with the knob.

Also: Only recorded the 5153 50w so far, been playing the big one too though a while back...even if it was with a different cab, I think the controls worked the same on both versions, 50w and 100w

 

[Mattayus]

Couldn't agree more than the 5150's presence dials don't do a damn thing til about 8. I get enormously confused when I hear really defined and clear tones and discover they had the presence knob at 5, but the signal chain was almost identical to mine in every way Must be down to the room, and other contributing factors.

I personally prefer to pick darker speaker points, but compensate with presence. I have mine comfortable at 9, but anything beyond that is unusable, it's such a stupidly tight line to walk.

 

[JeffTD]

Always get brightness at the source when possible. Boosting top end is one thing that just does not work as well in the digital realm as it does in the analogue world.

 

[mharwood]

Always get brightness at the source when possible. Boosting top end is one thing that just does not work as well in the digital realm as it does in the analogue world.

Ditto. If I was fortunate enough to have a good analog EQ hanging around, I might feel differently, but I always err on the side of my sources being a little more bright than I might want in the end so I don't have to add the brightness with digital EQ. Other than that, though, I try to get the tone as close as possible to what I think I'll need in the mix.

If I do goof up the source brightness and really end up needing more brightness in a guitar track, I actually prefer to slap a good amp sim (TSE X50 is a common choice) on the track and run the sim a a very low gain (just enough to add that little extra fizz that the track may be missing). Then, I'll use EQ to shape that sound.

 

[Mago]

I rather boost with a digital eq than loosing meat by going too close to the center of the speaker and getting nasty spikes, or getting too much hi-mids in with the treble knob that I'll have to cut out later and are masking aspects of the sound I dig in the first place...or getting too much of the nastyness that gets on past 9 on the peavey for example.

Yeah, I'd feel better if I had a nice outboard eq lying around, or be tracking into a neve, or whatever nice desk with onboard eq ofc.
But a light hishelf as long as it's nothing major isn't that much of a problem, even in the digital realm I think.

 

[~BURNY~]

Are we talking a couple of db's or a massive 10db shelf?

I have two cool outboard EQ and I'm reaching them when I need coloration (the gap EQ-73 is especially cool for that) but I have zero problem using a digital EQ to boost the HF as long as it stays in a reasonable range.

 

[Nimvi]

I rather boost with a digital eq than loosing meat by going too close to the center of the speaker and getting nasty spikes, or getting too much hi-mids in with the treble knob that I'll have to cut out later and are masking aspects of the sound I dig in the first place...or getting too much of the nastyness that gets on past 9 on the peavey for example.

This has been my experience with the 6505 as well. I'm usually all for the "get it right at the source" doctrine, but I track the 6505 a bit dark and then just add a slight high shelf if it needs it, because pushing the treble/presence beyond my usual settings always results in me fighting unwanted side effects.

I'm talking about a 1/2db boost TOPS here btw.

 

[JeffTD]

What are you guys usually running that amp like? My presence was never above 8 and highs above 5 when I had it, usually pres at 7 and highs at 4 live.

 

[Mago]

I usually have treble between 4.5 and 5, Pres between 8-8.5 on my oversize.
Live the provided backline cabs of most venues are brighter than my oversize, and since the post gain has to be running lower too the amp gets fizzier, which makes me end up more like where you had it set.
(talking about my 6505+ here mind!)

BUT I gotta confess I haven't considered the fact, that I haven't changed the powertubes in a while, and iirc I have the bias set pretty cold too.
Wanted to look into that, so I guess theres I chance I'll get a bit more presence out of the thing with a bit of tweaking.

 

[Mattayus]

With my 6534+, the presence is at 9 (it was at 8, but I became dissatisfied with the tone, hence this thread) and treble at 6. These are EL34's though, so I'm not sure how much that's going to factor with the presence knob. I've had plenty of 5150's, 6505's, +/II's and it was the same story with them though, tbh.

 

[Frak]

Couldn't agree more than the 5150's presence dials don't do a damn thing til about 8. I get enormously confused when I hear really defined and clear tones and discover they had the presence knob at 5, but the signal chain was almost identical to mine in every way Must be down to the room, and other contributing factors.

I personally prefer to pick darker speaker points, but compensate with presence. I have mine comfortable at 9, but anything beyond that is unusable, it's such a stupidly tight line to walk.

This. Especially with cheaper cabs like mine that are hairy in the top end. The result is a fuller, smoother sound imo.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Nowdays,on rythm guitars i never boost frequencies,i only cut.

I might be wrong but here's what i know:
Boosting frequencies is similar to adding a little bit of distortion to the waveform.
Now as we all know,rythm guitars are full of distortion,so the result is adding distortion to the source that's already distorted.It doesn't sound like a good idea,at least in the digital domain.

Colin Richardson has mentioned on a post,that he uses massenburg EQ's,some of those units cost 3000-6000 euros,so definitely the result will be different from a plug-in EQ.
But at the end of the day,it's all about the result

 

[~BURNY~]

Nowdays,on rythm guitars i never boost frequencies,i only cut.
Now as we all know,rythm guitars are full of distortion,so the result is adding distortion to the source that's already distorted.It doesn't sound like a good idea,at least in the digital domain.

That's a flawed reasoning. Boosting as well as cutting will impart "distortion" but definitely not the kind of distortion you're thinking about. Phase distortion, resonances and in some case transients alteration but not amp-like saturation (harmonic distortion) unless it is purposely implemented for a generally desirable coloration the way analog outboard does.

For each processing step you apply to a given audio source, no matter what type of treatment you apply, there's always an adverse effect.

 

[Nimvi]

What are you guys usually running that amp like? My presence was never above 8 and highs above 5 when I had it, usually pres at 7 and highs at 4 live.

From the top of my head, somewhere around that yes.

I can never push the treble above 4/4.5 on that amp without getting something I hate about it. I would like to go a bit higher for the added pick attack articulation, but to me it sounds like the bell curve is set too wide and starts pushing less-desirable areas. So that's something I would then consider doing with a minor boost on the post-EQ.

I don't recall my usual presence setting, but it is at the point where it barely starts to kick in. I think that's around 7/8, like you mentioned.

So yea, it's not THAT dark, but I've seen plenty of guys using treble around 7. Every time I try that, it just tears my head off.


Btw, I've really been digging the 45% angle from dead center position lately. I used to hate it, but it works for the stuff I'm currently messing around with.

 

[amarshism]

i prefer to go dark and add top if i need it. Removing high end is always more difficult to me