Aggressive Atheism

It's also human nature to develop systems in which there are authority figures. Even isolated ancient tribes have leaders. I'd argue that some people are leaders by nature and other are either content to follow or not cut out to lead. Encouraging the stupid and even the average to rebel against "The Man" or whatever power may be may not be the best idea. Of course I agree that it is deplorable and sad to see PPP going on, and unless their parents or someone(luckily mine did) tell them that it is worse to blindly obey than to question authority, a lot of folks could be perfectly content to just coast.

Come on over to Japan, where most people are apathetic about the rest of the world and are not taught critical thinking in school. The nail that sticks out is hammered down. Your own personal hell.

Now this isn't a discussion about atheism anymore, it's us agreeing that there are a lot of sheep in the West. haha.
 
It's also human nature to develop systems in which there are authority figures. Even isolated ancient tribes have leaders. I'd argue that some people are leaders by nature and other are either content to follow or not cut out to lead.

Yes and no. The province of a "benevolent dictatorship" is another fallacy. Political power is corrupt all by itself. Even the most well intentioned leader will still cherish the power to force others to do what he thinks is right(which is why I would never be a politician).
The key is recognizing the sovereignty of the individual and recognizing that each person has rights which are inherent; and thusly should be protected from harm.
That is where your leaders & followers dichotomy comes in.

Come on over to Japan, where most people are apathetic about the rest of the world and are not taught critical thinking in school. The nail that sticks out is hammered down. Your own personal hell.

Already had my own version of that hell. I think I am still barred from there.

Now this isn't a discussion about atheism anymore, it's us agreeing that there are a lot of sheep in the West. haha.

Of course there are. And basically everywhere else.
 
for many reasons my jaw is just hanging at this recent conversation which mostly revolve around many ideals in other posts I have made over the years and recently that I got slagged for.

hypocracy - the leader of peoples - do what I say not as I do
 
Because they are an intrinsic part of our volitional nature, is the short answer.

Other peoples acknowledgement and allowance for certain actions is hardwired into our conscious decision making... I assume you'll have objective hard evidence for this, given your problems with those that don't have objective hard evidence for their beliefs?
 
Other peoples acknowledgement and allowance for certain actions is hardwired into our conscious decision making... I assume you'll have objective hard evidence for this, given your problems with those that don't have objective hard evidence for their beliefs?

How did I know that you were going to ask for the long answer??? :Spin:

Just know that this discussion is already rigged in my favor(more on that later).

A right as defined by Black's Law Dictionary is "a power, faculty, or demand inherent in one person and incident upon another.....the powers of free action." Note that rights are "inherent" in a person. This means that it is physically impossible for rights to be extracted from a person by any means. It also means that our rights weren't "given" to us; because if that were true, then they could just as easily be taken away.

Imagine a brick of lead. What is one of the first things you'll notice about this object? That it will be heavy. Extremely high density or weight is an inherent quality of lead. You can't put a lead brick into a vacuum and "suck out the heavy" nor could you put the lead brick into a microwave and zap it until it becomes light and fluffy. Being heavy is one of the main distinguishing attributes of lead.

Now remember some dreams you've had. You can't put your horrifying nightmares into a bag and bury them in the backyard. You can share your dreams with others, but you don't have to worry that someone will steal them from you when you're not looking. Your dreams are an inherent part of who you are. No one can extract your dreams from you.

The same is true about your rights. When you die, your dreams will die with you. If someone kills you, they will deprive you of life; but they can never deprive you of your right to life. Rights can be violated, however they cannot be taken away. Violating rights tantamounts to pulling the claws and teeth off of a lion and setting him back into his biotope. It is a lion's nature that he needs this stuff. It can be violated, but not taken away. You can pull his claws off, but it does not change the fact that he needs them. This is the answer to the question: Why does violating a man's rights always result in unhappiness? I would argue that it results in
death as well. This is the reason that socialism, statism, collectivism are not only morally wrong; but impossible.

Man is an end in himself and holds no responsibility to God or Jesus or Zeus or the state
. How do I know this? Wholly due to the self evidence of individual rights. To claim that rights are self evident is only to make a firm claim about the epistemological--that is, to say that they can be accepted without proof, but need not be accepted by faith. How is that possible? Because they MUST BE PRESUPPOSED BY ANYONE WHO WISHES TO REFUTE THEM. This is why at the beginning of my post I said that it's already rigged in my favor. The efficacy of making that point is this: when those suggesting that I don't have any inherent rights(such as socialists) try and debate me, they are already playing MY game! They are already engaging in goal directed use of the mind, they are already nibbling at the fruit of freedom's tree. They are already claiming that they are _free_ to hold any view they'd like, that they can prefer this over that and not be punished for it, and that they can engage in reason to ever refine their philosophic and political points of view. You are not free to do this if you don't have rights. (By the way, it is a contradiction to say you PREFER to hold the view that I don't have rights. That's like saying you have a RIGHT to MY stuff. However, you will not be sentenced to infinite fire and damnation if you do, but if you try and implement it, you will be sent to jail.) :D

Again, when I say they are axiomatic, I mean: they must be presupposed in order to be refuted. If you're looking for debate efficacy, you can't get much better than that! "Hey, you've already bought into my point of view if you're arguing with me!" But what is it about them METAPHYSICALLY,
that makes them self evident? That's what I think you are groping at. Ask yourself, why is it that they are self evident? What is it about being conscious such that the very act of denying one's rights is to proclaim one's right to deny them? What about a human's MIND makes them so
absolutely intrinsic, and inextricable to life?


Precisely because rights and volition are not only intertwined, they are corollaries. Free will is the SOURCE of individual rights, and individual rights are the means of protecting an individual's free will. So when some atheist-communist approaches you and says "Hey, your rights came from God and I don't believe in God, therefore I don't believe in your rights," you can respond by simply patting him on the back and saying with a sigh, "That's alright buddy! My rights are intrinsic in my volitional nature. Doesn't really matter whether God exists."
 
I find it amusing you spent a whole post describing what [god] must be like (but you don't believe in one), to give ample reason why you wouldn't like him.

Hell, I could describe anything I don't like/don't want in ridiculous, subjective terms to make a point.

God can't be a father because he is like Big Brother because I said so.
Pianos are a horrible instrument because Paul McCartney sucks because I said so.

Your arguements are weak, overly wordy, and only substantiated by your own personal opinions. While I agree with you here and there, your attitude is abrasive and makes me embarrassed to be on your side of the collectivism/individualism fence. You ARE acting like a "evangelical".
 
A right as defined by Black's Law Dictionary

You want to rely on dictionary definitions for a discussion of rights? :tickled:
According to the Cambridge Advanced Learners dictionary, a right is 'what is considered to be morally good or acceptable'.

Fuck, who'd have thought that dictionary definitions wouldn't really be sufficient for a decent analysis. You didn't need to explain what inherent means to me either, I speak English good like.


Imagine a brick of lead. What is one of the first things you'll notice about this object? That it will be heavy. Extremely high density or weight is an inherent quality of lead. You can't put a lead brick into a vacuum and "suck out the heavy" nor could you put the lead brick into a microwave and zap it until it becomes light and fluffy. Being heavy is one of the main distinguishing attributes of lead.

Heaviness is a judgement applied to the phenomenological perception. The 'fact' that it is solid, bricklike, and lead, are also applied judgements that are culturally shared.


Now remember some dreams you've had. You can't put your horrifying nightmares into a bag and bury them in the backyard. You can share your dreams with others, but you don't have to worry that someone will steal them from you when you're not looking. Your dreams are an inherent part of who you are. No one can extract your dreams from you.

If I forget them am I still the same person? There's nothing 'inherent' about the concept of identity either, it's just a more complicated version of the brick of lead issue :)



The same is true about your rights. When you die, your dreams will die with you. If someone kills you, they will deprive you of life; but they can never deprive you of your right to life. Rights can be violated, however they cannot be taken away. Violating rights tantamounts to pulling the claws and teeth off of a lion and setting him back into his biotope. It is a lion's nature that he needs this stuff. It can be violated, but not taken away. You can pull his claws off, but it does not change the fact that he needs them. This is the answer to the question: Why does violating a man's rights always result in unhappiness? I would argue that it results in
death as well. This is the reason that socialism, statism, collectivism are not only morally wrong; but impossible.

Man is an end in himself and holds no responsibility to God or Jesus or Zeus or the state
. How do I know this? Wholly due to the self evidence of individual rights. To claim that rights are self evident is only to make a firm claim about the epistemological--that is, to say that they can be accepted without proof, but need not be accepted by faith. How is that possible? Because they MUST BE PRESUPPOSED BY ANYONE WHO WISHES TO REFUTE THEM. This is why at the beginning of my post I said that it's already rigged in my favor. The efficacy of making that point is this: when those suggesting that I don't have any inherent rights(such as socialists) try and debate me, they are already playing MY game! They are already engaging in goal directed use of the mind, they are already nibbling at the fruit of freedom's tree. They are already claiming that they are _free_ to hold any view they'd like, that they can prefer this over that and not be punished for it, and that they can engage in reason to ever refine their philosophic and political points of view. You are not free to do this if you don't have rights. (By the way, it is a contradiction to say you PREFER to hold the view that I don't have rights. That's like saying you have a RIGHT to MY stuff. However, you will not be sentenced to infinite fire and damnation if you do, but if you try and implement it, you will be sent to jail.) :D

Again, when I say they are axiomatic, I mean: they must be presupposed in order to be refuted. If you're looking for debate efficacy, you can't get much better than that! "Hey, you've already bought into my point of view if you're arguing with me!" But what is it about them METAPHYSICALLY,
that makes them self evident? That's what I think you are groping at. Ask yourself, why is it that they are self evident? What is it about being conscious such that the very act of denying one's rights is to proclaim one's right to deny them? What about a human's MIND makes them so
absolutely intrinsic, and inextricable to life?


Precisely because rights and volition are not only intertwined, they are corollaries. Free will is the SOURCE of individual rights, and individual rights are the means of protecting an individual's free will. So when some atheist-communist approaches you and says "Hey, your rights came from God and I don't believe in God, therefore I don't believe in your rights," you can respond by simply patting him on the back and saying with a sigh, "That's alright buddy! My rights are intrinsic in my volitional nature. Doesn't really matter whether God exists."

Ok. So rights are just a fucked up description for existing, according to you. I live, therefore I have a 'right' to life. If someone kills me, how is it that they are not exercising their 'right' to kill me? You might argue that it's a violation, but they can just nod and smile and claim that their right to kill me is intertwined with their volition. Such a conception is empty of meaning or use, you can speak whatever language you want with whatever empty fucking terms you want. I do not agree with your definition, I agree with the Cambridge folks - rights are a social consensus of stuff we think people should have. We call them 'rights' because we think they are important and want to distinguish them.

I'm with Dakryn, you sound like the rebellious teenage son of a dogmatic church going couple who's limited 'rebellion' leads him to dogmatise scraps of philosophy without actually thinking about it. Try actually considering what people say, there's a lot to learn in this world, we don't always know everything.

I think I'm done with the whole responding masochism thing, but we'll see what page long pointless pompous dribble you manage next...
 
Fuck, who'd have thought that dictionary definitions wouldn't really be sufficient for a decent analysis. You didn't need to explain what inherent means to me either, I speak English good like.

You asked for something objective and I supplied it. The natural law definition is more than sufficient for the purposes of this discussion. I have no idea what the hell you are on about pulling out word dictionary definition #? to make your case.

If someone kills me, how is it that they are not exercising their 'right' to kill me?

<sigh>Because the only limitation on your rights is the equal rights of others. Your body is your property. You do not have the right to anyone else's property; nor they, to yours.
I know you are struggling with understanding this concept; but geez.

I do not agree with your definition, I agree with the Cambridge folks - rights are a social consensus of stuff we think people should have. We call them 'rights' because we think they are important and want to distinguish them.

Hah pfft, of course that's what you think. You'd have truly surprised me if you'd thought it was anything else.

Ok, you want a subjective definition, here you go. I define a right as something you can do without asking for permission. The opposite of a right, therefore, is something you cannot do without asking for permission. Anytime you need permission to do something it is a privilege.
THAT is more in line with your definition. But don't worry, you're not alone. Our big cities are just saturated full of people, like you, who cannot distinguish the difference between rights and privileges. And that is sad.
So don't feel so isolated on that cloud of superior knowledge you are floating on.
 
If someone kills me, how is it that they are not exercising their 'right' to kill me? You might argue that it's a violation, but they can just nod and smile and claim that their right to kill me is intertwined with their volition.

Does anyone else here think this a particularly creepy and scary, veiled interpretation that confesses something quite sinister about this guy???
 
<sigh>Because the only limitation on your rights is the equal rights of others. Your body is your property. You do not have the right to anyone else's property; nor they, to yours.
I know you are struggling with understanding this concept; but geez.

Why is my body my property? What if I'm owned by an ancient greek?


And yes, this post contains hidden sub texts of submissive desires, to save you the psychoanalysis.
 
seems to me most of these subjects you people are discussing are covered in the ten comandments. Disregarding the "religious" aspects by which they were written and have been applied its my belief that they are simply learned wisdom by elders. Dont fuck with someone elses stuff and life for all will proceed relatively smoothly... if you didnt stand and swat the hornets nest you would not get stung... dont back the wolf into a corner and he wont come out biting... hardly rocket science or deep philosophical prospecting. Then of course a few commandments to fear god were added to help tame those that dont understand such basic principles, we still find many of these types of people today and have further complicated the issue via some really strange laws that protect the instigator and criminalize the finisher.

Now the finisher does also violate comandments or biblical teachings by not forgiving, passing judgement, delivering their sentence by vengence or basic diciplinary acts. So now you have another human tendency... intervention... for a third party to step in and shame or sentence the one who put their foot down and/or stood their ground.

AND thus begins, government, beaurocracy, national debt and what I believe the very root of religion was based on in the first place, man creating God and fear of in order to curb chaos, explain all that was not understood at the time, as well as hypocriticly support... in the case of Judaism... the self serving desires of the Isrealites to stake claim to the best piece of realestate.

Call me stupid and base but it seems to me it always comes back to innate self serving characteristics of ALL things living.
 
Yeah, as if we needed those commandments in the first place. Man simply would not have survived or cultivated that many civilizations if they had been killing, stealing, and lying all the time.

Some of those commandments further illustrate my point of faith & force.

The 10th commandment forbidding the coveting of thy neighbor's wife or thy neighbor's house are the first(but not the last) biblical manifestations of totalitarian "thought crime". Man can't even obtain the ambition of seeing what his neighbor has and he hasn't; to let it motivate and/or inspire him to do better and achieve that which would improve his lot in life; let alone that such legislation would be impossible to obey.

To go along with this, the top 2 commandments mixed injuction that "I am the lord thy God.&#8230; Thou shalt have no other gods before me", suggest that there are some other gods but not equally deserving of respect or awe. This suggests a very jealous god and is the earliest collective form of censorship as this would clearly forbid any representational art.

And perhaps the most sinister, is Commandment #5. By all means respect for the elders, but why is there nothing to forbid child abuse? (Insolence on the part of children is punishable by death, according to Leviticus 20:9) A cruel or rude child is a ghastly thing, but a cruel or brutal parent can do infinitely more harm. Yet even in a long and exhaustive list of prohibitions, parental sadism or neglect is never once condemned. I don't care how devout or well-intentioned a believer you are; that's pretty fucked up. Talk about EPIC FAIL.

In short, the Ten Commandments are pretty insidious despite their all-too-sporadic "good points".
 
Alright, now I am flirting with being a little evangelical. :tickled:

I really don't take any of this shit seriously though. I promise. It just gets my goat when I encounter those who do and actually believe in it.

I guess I'm just a sucker for old and underdeveloped graphic novels.
 
Somehow it seems you took everything I was saying and the point there of and threw it out the window, leaving it open to your self serving interests.

Man was very barbaric and did not survive the previous ages all that well, only as a whole "he" survived. Of course the barbarianism did not end and still exists, somehow even seems to have changed hands as now the weaker impose on others via laws I have often spoken of.

I fail to see your problem with coveting, take my wife or my house and I am bound by innate duty to become a murderer. I just fail to see the rocket science here... faith and force... sorry... shove it, has nothing to do with that its simple innate protectionism, territory, any species will fight and kill when their territory is invaded, I believe it IS a RIGHT. Thus why I promote protecting the borders and airports with machine guns and use of. Another innate human characteristic is to get the hint relatively quickly... refer to the pissing off of hornets. Now if the hornets just flew by and said "please stop that, your messing up my "house" they would accomplish nothing and soon be in jepordy.

No where in the bible does it say a man can not nor should not seek success, or learn from his fellow man, you need to get over this false conclusion you have drawn.

Thus the respect for elders, you wish to learn something from a child, have at it, I got over my arrogant childish rebellion and realized elders know and understand things for a reason, all aspects of success, reasoning, ect. are tried and true not the knee jerk reactions of the immature and inexperienced.

Barbarian ways led to the breeding of those that would abuse, we dont find too much of this abuse in the other animals. Granted reptiles eat the immature and young conquering Lions kill the off spring of the jousted patriarc but you dont see it within direct families. What you will see is fast, harsh, too the point discipline, that is over as fast as it occured. Part of the learning/teaching experience innate in the rearing process of all mammals. Yes indeedy! youthful mammals of all species excluding human FUCKING RESPECT their elders. Its a fine line between fear and respect, for many a good reason.

The no other Gods and worship of false idols only revolved around dispelling older belief systems such as the many Greek and Greek based Roman Gods as the new religious "order" sought for position.

Geeze, I would have thought you knew and understood all this stuff but you seem to struggle internally with the parts of history which you just cant change.
 
Yeah, as if we needed those commandments in the first place. Man simply would not have survived or cultivated that many civilizations if they had been killing, stealing, and lying all the time.

Some of those commandments further illustrate my point of faith & force.

The 10th commandment forbidding the coveting of thy neighbor's wife or thy neighbor's house are the first(but not the last) biblical manifestations of totalitarian "thought crime". Man can't even obtain the ambition of seeing what his neighbor has and he hasn't; to let it motivate and/or inspire him to do better and achieve that which would improve his lot in life; let alone that such legislation would be impossible to obey.

To go along with this, the top 2 commandments mixed injuction that "I am the lord thy God.&#8230; Thou shalt have no other gods before me", suggest that there are some other gods but not equally deserving of respect or awe. This suggests a very jealous god and is the earliest collective form of censorship as this would clearly forbid any representational art.

And perhaps the most sinister, is Commandment #5. By all means respect for the elders, but why is there nothing to forbid child abuse? (Insolence on the part of children is punishable by death, according to Leviticus 20:9) A cruel or rude child is a ghastly thing, but a cruel or brutal parent can do infinitely more harm. Yet even in a long and exhaustive list of prohibitions, parental sadism or neglect is never once condemned. I don't care how devout or well-intentioned a believer you are; that's pretty fucked up. Talk about EPIC FAIL.

In short, the Ten Commandments are pretty insidious despite their all-too-sporadic "good points".

Are you really this dense? I hope you are merely a very semi-educated sounding troll.

So it's cool for me to specifically want your wife or house or car? Because the almost all finishing actions to follow the thought of wanting is to take through illegal means, which would either be by killing you to take it, or maybe raping your wife, stealing your car, etc. etc.

It isn't talking about wanting A wife, or wanting a nicer house, it's about specifically wanting the thing in someone else's possession, because the only way to satisfy the want ourside of legal purchase is to use one of the aforementioned illegal means to procure it. This is the reason for forbidding that thought process.

As far as the parental sadism thing goes, I have never seen anyone who really attempted to obey the Bible that thoroughly be a child abuser. You can't pull one section of of a book out of context and declare it's meaning without pulling in all other relevant passages, or you will be way off the mark.
 
It is quite revealing when people say that they will automatically act on what they covet; and thus need archaic written rules of morality and restrictions on thought to squash these bubbling evil desires from ever seeing the light of day.
I am very glad that this discussion is over a message board; because I don't think I would wanna be anywhere near you guys; let alone let any one of you watch over a child(if I were dumb enough to have one).

razoredge: do you read posts(or the dictionary?) or just skim over them to find something to huff about? I think it's pretty funny that you even mention "knee jerk reactions" in your post. Oh the irony. Coveting is nowhere near the same thing as taking. Taking=acting. Think before you post. Just because you don't want others to think doesn't mean you don't have to. And also read between the lines more; and not so much in my posts; but that which you espouse in defending. And where anywhere did I say not to respect the elders? That is(if you will see where I noted), by itself, a commandment which warrants plenty of merit. But as I also mentioned, it is incomplete. There simply is no age limit for rights, sorry.

dakryn: I currently live in the "bible belt" where people are far more outwardly vocal both about their devout faith and not sparing the rod to their offspring. Just the other day, the lady cutting my hair boasted about how she paddled her son til' he bled and what a good lil' Christian she was. Wow...Bible....BELT. I just got it. *doh!*


I do not agree with you guys; that man is just a seething, bubbling cauldron of vicious human desires that constantly need to be curbed, contained, and constantly watched lest they run over and all of us turn into serial killing heethens.

Sure, there ARE some truly evil people(and I've encountered them), but by my calculations; most people are good. And thought crime is just completely unnecessary; not to mention utterly evil. And what's more; like I said before, any law against coveting would be impossible to obey. However, if someone does try to take your life, liberty, or property from you; then you DO have the right to defend your rights and destroy the aggressor(s). Force is wrong(lest it be in the defense of your individual rights).



I have presented my case that faith and force are corollaries. But so far, the only arguments that I have heard against it have been harsh name calling, ad hominem attacks, deliberate twisting and misinterpretations of my points, out-of-left-field tangents that amount to nothing, and vague statements based on the relative that I am somehow, wrong. But not one of you have actually argued against any of my main, central points that I have quite competently backed up; only whined and wailed against them, with no teeth.

Now if I am wrong, I would be glad to hear any one of you argue the only real opposing argument that there can be here; that faith and freedom are corollaries. Or that FAITH IS FREEDOM. (Though I suppose insanity is pretty liberating).
For that really can be the only true argument that will counter all I have said, isn't it? There clearly can be no middle ground in this matter and I'd be amazed(but not surprised) if there are those who think there can. But are any of you really going to argue my case point-by-point to proclaim this utterly inane point of view(especially when you have agreed with some of the things I have said)???

I so very highly doubt it.

So with that, I will conclude by reiterating that faith and force ARE indeed corollaries and are actually very deeply immersed in one another. And that faith is infinitely much closer to the central basic tenets of totalitarianism than to the more enlightened view that individual man is an end in himself; a distinct separate entity whose rights are intrinsic to him and not beholden to any god, government, community, voting body, or any other authority.

Now I rest my case and I leave you with a quote:

There are no evil thoughts, except one: the refusal to think.
 
Yeah, as if we needed those commandments in the first place. Man simply would not have survived or cultivated that many civilizations if they had been killing, stealing, and lying all the time.

Some of those commandments further illustrate my point of faith & force.

The 10th commandment forbidding the coveting of thy neighbor's wife or thy neighbor's house are the first(but not the last) biblical manifestations of totalitarian "thought crime". Man can't even obtain the ambition of seeing what his neighbor has and he hasn't; to let it motivate and/or inspire him to do better and achieve that which would improve his lot in life; let alone that such legislation would be impossible to obey.

Hmmm I interpreted that as "get your own shit and don't steal your neighbors'"

To go along with this, the top 2 commandments mixed injuction that "I am the lord thy God.… Thou shalt have no other gods before me", suggest that there are some other gods but not equally deserving of respect or awe. This suggests a very jealous god and is the earliest collective form of censorship as this would clearly forbid any representational art.

Obviously as a monotheistic religious doctrine followers would be encouraged to stay loyal to their god...

And perhaps the most sinister, is Commandment #5. By all means respect for the elders, but why is there nothing to forbid child abuse? (Insolence on the part of children is punishable by death, according to Leviticus 20:9) A cruel or rude child is a ghastly thing, but a cruel or brutal parent can do infinitely more harm. Yet even in a long and exhaustive list of prohibitions, parental sadism or neglect is never once condemned. I don't care how devout or well-intentioned a believer you are; that's pretty fucked up. Talk about EPIC FAIL.

Are you aware of what life was like when the Bible was written? It was still okay to have multiple wives and beat women and children. People shitting and pissing everywhere because there was no efficient system of waste management. Way to be one of the "literal interpretation in a modern context" simpletons. You must be better than this.