Aggressive Atheism
- Thread starter JGMetalhead
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Stifling the God blame game and tantrum Incubus was having because he simply cant make believers stop believing served my intent far better.
monoxide_child
New Metal Member
- Jul 30, 2008
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monoxide_child
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if you are asking "what is the difference between apes and monkeys?"
then here's the answer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey
monoxide_child
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- Jul 30, 2008
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monoxide_child
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Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
This thread is quite a hoot I must say; and quite like razoredge(though I won't be playing any devil's advocate here[pun intended]), I don't believe in the acknowledgement of religion or god in one's life whatsoever, let alone arguing about it. All that does is give theism a much unwarranted due and presupposes that it is something that is actually up for legitimate debate(which is preposterous). Worse still, it perpetuates the psychotic nonsense and only hinders mankind's vital need to move past it(religion, like racism, will only be less significant a thing if people simply stopped constantly harping about it and twisting it for their own ends).
A "Passive Athiest"? Hmm. You could say that. Secular Humanist? I think so. I rather think of myself as an Absolute Athiest or as an Atheist in the truest sense of the word(without theism). In all actuality though, I think I am beyond atheism. You won't encounter me starting a serious conversation about any religious idea; that's for sure.
Actually, I do not really care about the concepts of religion or god. The thing I have a problem with though is FAITH. I simply just don't believe that people should believe. Faith is the surrender of reason. And the day I surrender my reason is the day I turn into Richard Simmons.
If that comes off as arrogant, I do not apologize in any way. Because all theistic doctrines hold that there is some form of purpose for our lives and that some kind of a higher being has a specific insight into what that purpose is. Now I may be arrogant, but I cannot hold a fucking candle to someone who actually claims to have an inkling into the secrets of the universe. It is for this reason, and others still, that one should suspect even the most mild believer.
It is the mild believers actually, who bother me the most. People who claim that they know there is a higher power but it isn't something that they can actually prove but instead is something that they know to be true in their own heart. And people who really believe in something will always act on it, one way or another. In my book, this makes them no worse than the people who hijacked and crashed the airplanes on 9/11 or no worse than the Manson Family who killed Sharon Tate. If it's true for you, why isn't it true for them? Why are you any different? If you say "I believe there's an all-powerful force of love in the universe that connects us all, and I have no evidence of that but I believe it in my heart," then it's perfectly okay to believe in your heart that Sharon Tate deserves to die. It's perfectly okay to believe in your heart that you need to fly planes into buildings for Allah.
It's like these idiots you run into all the time who believe in the ultimate Santa Claus For Adults aka KARMA. "Don't do that; it's bad karma". Oh really? And you know this for sure? Can you prove it? Oh no? Oh, you believe it. What was I thinking? Oh FUCK, I just stubbed my toe. HOLY SHIT! You must be right! You really weren't kidding about that karma shit................*hurl*
No asshole, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people all the time. Sometimes for a reason; sometimes for no reason at all. You win some, you lose some. It's called life. You wanna look for patterns; go out and buy a fucking children's puzzle book. There's no room on the table for puerile entertainment.
What makes people like these worse to me in quite a very significant respect is that instead of using celestial phenomena to justify/explain real events(which is at least laughable), they are using real events to justify/explain celestial phenomena. "You knocked over that girl's drink. That's gonna come back to bite you bro. You better buy her a bottle of Cristal." Yeah you dipshit, at some point soon and in some way I will encounter misfortune. Maybe I too, will lose a bout with gravity. Will you kindly tell me tomorrow's lottery numbers while I have you here you prick?
You believe in Karma yeah??? Well I actually believe in something too. Something that I know I will always encounter and something that can be found in all kinds of places and something that can be looked at again and again ad nauseam. And that something is called IRONY.
A "Passive Athiest"? Hmm. You could say that. Secular Humanist? I think so. I rather think of myself as an Absolute Athiest or as an Atheist in the truest sense of the word(without theism). In all actuality though, I think I am beyond atheism. You won't encounter me starting a serious conversation about any religious idea; that's for sure.
Actually, I do not really care about the concepts of religion or god. The thing I have a problem with though is FAITH. I simply just don't believe that people should believe. Faith is the surrender of reason. And the day I surrender my reason is the day I turn into Richard Simmons.
If that comes off as arrogant, I do not apologize in any way. Because all theistic doctrines hold that there is some form of purpose for our lives and that some kind of a higher being has a specific insight into what that purpose is. Now I may be arrogant, but I cannot hold a fucking candle to someone who actually claims to have an inkling into the secrets of the universe. It is for this reason, and others still, that one should suspect even the most mild believer.
It is the mild believers actually, who bother me the most. People who claim that they know there is a higher power but it isn't something that they can actually prove but instead is something that they know to be true in their own heart. And people who really believe in something will always act on it, one way or another. In my book, this makes them no worse than the people who hijacked and crashed the airplanes on 9/11 or no worse than the Manson Family who killed Sharon Tate. If it's true for you, why isn't it true for them? Why are you any different? If you say "I believe there's an all-powerful force of love in the universe that connects us all, and I have no evidence of that but I believe it in my heart," then it's perfectly okay to believe in your heart that Sharon Tate deserves to die. It's perfectly okay to believe in your heart that you need to fly planes into buildings for Allah.
It's like these idiots you run into all the time who believe in the ultimate Santa Claus For Adults aka KARMA. "Don't do that; it's bad karma". Oh really? And you know this for sure? Can you prove it? Oh no? Oh, you believe it. What was I thinking? Oh FUCK, I just stubbed my toe. HOLY SHIT! You must be right! You really weren't kidding about that karma shit................*hurl*
No asshole, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people all the time. Sometimes for a reason; sometimes for no reason at all. You win some, you lose some. It's called life. You wanna look for patterns; go out and buy a fucking children's puzzle book. There's no room on the table for puerile entertainment.
What makes people like these worse to me in quite a very significant respect is that instead of using celestial phenomena to justify/explain real events(which is at least laughable), they are using real events to justify/explain celestial phenomena. "You knocked over that girl's drink. That's gonna come back to bite you bro. You better buy her a bottle of Cristal." Yeah you dipshit, at some point soon and in some way I will encounter misfortune. Maybe I too, will lose a bout with gravity. Will you kindly tell me tomorrow's lottery numbers while I have you here you prick?
You believe in Karma yeah??? Well I actually believe in something too. Something that I know I will always encounter and something that can be found in all kinds of places and something that can be looked at again and again ad nauseam. And that something is called IRONY.
Faith is kind of a precursor to reason, innit? Would we bother reasoning if we didn't have faith that the universe would continue to function in a consistent manner?
I think faith has multiple applications regarding this context. Seems you (Blowtus) are more talking about faith in oneself or other easily or broadly accepted constants. Where religious faith is more of a suspected constant... depending on how you want to view the religious.
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I have a continous internal battle with the karma and fate thing. The further life goes along that karma and fate issue seems to be in my face and I keep remembering old proverbial sayings such as "careful what you wish for", "watch what you say".
Further things like we(most of us) can never have what we most desire.
Examples such as:
drive around in a junk POS car for years and not a single scrape or dent, get a nice car and BAM it too is now a POS ghetto car."you can never have anything nice"
meet the girl of your dreams, everything is near perfect, seems like the piece of the puzzle that finally fits into yours. But there will be some simple stupid minor thing that destroys the entire relationship and there you sit dumbfounded.
contrary, "settle" for a DIP (do in a pinch) initially and discover you can co-exist relatively free of abrasion for years if not a lifetime.
find and land a job that makes you tic, happy and comfortable, look forward to every day at work... dont think its going to last, something will go incredibly wrong and you be hitting the streets again, most likely settling for a job that pays the bills and drives you out of your f'in mind.
Granted none of this is 100% given and there are many people that are just "golden". Yes it IS all definantly ironic but this is what brought the ideals of "fate" and "karma" into existance... the constant irony of life which always seems to have us choking on our own words and actions.
I think "fate" is somewhat understandable as we control that largely by the personal traits we were born with. A trait of more flexibility will expand the possibilities of ones final fate, a cameleon can adapt and/or fool many and do quite well. I guess I cant totally fault a more plastic personality, but its just not me.
The karma thing, I'm on the fence about as far as being commited to its existance but nowadays I mostly live "in fear" of it. Possibly the largest ponderance of my life, lets say the biggest head scratcher, brow raiser, ect.
------------
I have a continous internal battle with the karma and fate thing. The further life goes along that karma and fate issue seems to be in my face and I keep remembering old proverbial sayings such as "careful what you wish for", "watch what you say".
Further things like we(most of us) can never have what we most desire.
Examples such as:
drive around in a junk POS car for years and not a single scrape or dent, get a nice car and BAM it too is now a POS ghetto car."you can never have anything nice"
meet the girl of your dreams, everything is near perfect, seems like the piece of the puzzle that finally fits into yours. But there will be some simple stupid minor thing that destroys the entire relationship and there you sit dumbfounded.
contrary, "settle" for a DIP (do in a pinch) initially and discover you can co-exist relatively free of abrasion for years if not a lifetime.
find and land a job that makes you tic, happy and comfortable, look forward to every day at work... dont think its going to last, something will go incredibly wrong and you be hitting the streets again, most likely settling for a job that pays the bills and drives you out of your f'in mind.
Granted none of this is 100% given and there are many people that are just "golden". Yes it IS all definantly ironic but this is what brought the ideals of "fate" and "karma" into existance... the constant irony of life which always seems to have us choking on our own words and actions.
I think "fate" is somewhat understandable as we control that largely by the personal traits we were born with. A trait of more flexibility will expand the possibilities of ones final fate, a cameleon can adapt and/or fool many and do quite well. I guess I cant totally fault a more plastic personality, but its just not me.
The karma thing, I'm on the fence about as far as being commited to its existance but nowadays I mostly live "in fear" of it. Possibly the largest ponderance of my life, lets say the biggest head scratcher, brow raiser, ect.
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
Ah, now you have touched on the biggest truth of them all: Faith and Force are corollaries. Both internally and externally; as well as both overtly and covertly.
It is significantly because of this "fear" that people develop mental and anxiety problems(not to mention ways of using that fear to control others). Because man's mind demands that we look for patterns in everything and that we must try to find the meaning of it all; myriad problems ensue when people take things on faith. i.e. Mary has just fully purchased her lifetime subscription of the Karma Doctrine since her mom got in a car accident all because that night Mary broke her promise that she made to her mom of never turning tricks on the corner anymore for some heroin; and it's just too wild a coincidence. It must be karma. Now Mary is now either a born again Christian or a sanitary freak(having a serious case of OCD).
Now if you want a more overt example of how faith and force are corollaries, look no further than Christianity. Note to the Christians in the Tea Party: Jesus was not a libertarian. The Christian religion is founded on shame (original sin), fear (of the Lord), and sacrifice (the crucifixion). The difference between any moral philosophy which proclaims that you are subjugated to protecting the meek, that if you are more virtuous you are obligated to sacrifice to the less virtuous, that if you take action it's really not your fault because you are sinned before you stepped up to the foul line, and preaches the absolute innate depravity of man (that he should not wish to pursue "material" happiness in this life)--the difference between this type of philosophy and socialism is nominal indeed. Hell, you can replace the state with a God, have the leading representative of either of the two (a priest, preacher, philosopher, official) promulgate that you have your gifts by FAVOR of either of the two, and you've just been gently smooth talked into your coffin, brought to you by the "curb your vicious human impulses" crowd. MOREOVER, if you do not hold the Christian point of view, you are immediately sentenced to eternal hellfire! So much for tolerance and libertarianism.
Last and foremost about Christianity: such a religion, in its predictable resemblance to Islam, and any other savage philosophy proclaims that man's mind is impotent; that he is simply unable to apply it to the most basic and most important facts about his own existence. If there is a
philosophy which must ground libertarianism, it is most absolutely and certainly not this. If the world is essentially unavailable, and unknowable to me, how can I be allowed freedom? If I cannot be held responsible for my actions, how can I be allowed power over my own life? I repeat: faith and force are corrollaries.
Not to mention all of the methods of control and intimidation that already occur within these groups of religious fellowship if you don't strictly adhere to their behavioral codes. Fellowship. That's some pretty tragic divine comedy right there.
"What luck for rulers that men do not think.", Adolf Hitler said. And indeed, what is essential to both religion and statism is that man does not think. For faith is not only the surrender of reason; it is the suspension of thought. And karma is just one more huge(did I mention flaky?) and now quite pervasive impediment greatly halting mankind's achieving further enlightenment.
Dak
mentat
Note to Tea Party-ers: The Republican Party is fail.
Your inability to seperate what's written in the Bible from "Christianity" is typical and shortsighted.
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
Oh absolutely. I would never in a million years agree with the "keep your hands off my medicare and medicade" crowd or "we have the divine right to nation-build"; let alone condone theism in my rebellion to tyranny.
Cool. And that's damn fine. I will repeat again that I could give a basket full of a Hooter's gallery of fresh toasted bassett hound vaginas about the concepts of the Bible, religion, or god. It's fuckin' faith that is the ill here man.
That would be like me for a moment entertaining the arguments for or against abortion. Ok. Hmm hmm. Interesting; but a complete waste of time. Because government shouldn't be getting involved in moral arguments in the first place.
Dak
mentat
Not faith, but faith in [what]. Faith as an idea or concept cannot possibly be an ill by itself.
Um, to do that would be to have no government, and that would be anarchy, which has not, and cannot work.
Myself I dont care what kind of "faith" someone adheres to so long as my toes dont get stepped on, my life and freedom does not become intruded. I mention "kind of faith" because somewhere in there Prismic, you brought politics into it. I have found faith in capitolism, globalism, multi culturalism, liberalism and consertivitism to have drove over my toes with a two ton heavy thing. So while I know nothing about libertarianism nor care to know about it due to my belief that anything political hides behind a mask I find it most hypocritical to focus on libertarianism or faith in religion or any other superstitous belief such as karma. I have watched 30+ years of faith that capitolism and "democracy" was going to keep my country in the light and today we have millions without anything productive to do and not a single green light to be found that further perpetuates the blind advancement of such... So why go after any particular "faith" group ? Personally I wish some "groups" would have faith that if they pulled the little pecker out just shortly before ejaculation these millions would recede and the crying over starving babys might also recede and prove that mankind does have the ability to think.
"Sigh"... regardless... you are correct about how the hord easily buys up the various bills of goods we are sold, but its far too blindly off to isolate this problem to Christianity or what ever liberatarism is.
Incidently before I proceed, the old testiment DOES justify material happyness and through hard work, read the story on Abram artist later known as Abraham... I did make it that far through Genesis before I found myself to NOT agree with the "teachings" nor the proto hollywood sci-fi aspects.
As far as my personal concerns with karma and fate, they are not as silly as your example of the whore and her mothers car accident. They have been both good and bad as well as continous and more than curious. So many are too personal to give for examples and others too boring and petti to bother. Still I fail to see it restrict any enlightment, sorry.
The part about people curbing thier vicious human impulses I believe was simply learned over the ages. I'd be fine with mowing down a few dozen self gratifying fucks that directly, intentionally detoured mine and many other lives but somewhere we learned that via vengence... the eye for eye, tooth for tooth left a world full of blind people that couldnt chew their food... "where does it end" ? "You killed my father... prepare to die", well son of a bitch if that dead foe didnt have a son too. So we made laws to protect the toe stompers to curb the chaos, HOWEVER DO NOT stomp the toes of those law makers cause they CAN and WILL do war, but no one else is allowed.
Quite the visious circle that has no more to do with religion, faith or superstition than it does innate human self justifacation.
"Sigh"... regardless... you are correct about how the hord easily buys up the various bills of goods we are sold, but its far too blindly off to isolate this problem to Christianity or what ever liberatarism is.
Incidently before I proceed, the old testiment DOES justify material happyness and through hard work, read the story on Abram artist later known as Abraham... I did make it that far through Genesis before I found myself to NOT agree with the "teachings" nor the proto hollywood sci-fi aspects.
As far as my personal concerns with karma and fate, they are not as silly as your example of the whore and her mothers car accident. They have been both good and bad as well as continous and more than curious. So many are too personal to give for examples and others too boring and petti to bother. Still I fail to see it restrict any enlightment, sorry.
The part about people curbing thier vicious human impulses I believe was simply learned over the ages. I'd be fine with mowing down a few dozen self gratifying fucks that directly, intentionally detoured mine and many other lives but somewhere we learned that via vengence... the eye for eye, tooth for tooth left a world full of blind people that couldnt chew their food... "where does it end" ? "You killed my father... prepare to die", well son of a bitch if that dead foe didnt have a son too. So we made laws to protect the toe stompers to curb the chaos, HOWEVER DO NOT stomp the toes of those law makers cause they CAN and WILL do war, but no one else is allowed.
Quite the visious circle that has no more to do with religion, faith or superstition than it does innate human self justifacation.
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
Yes, it can.
I don't believe that I exist. It is my conviction that I exist. I know that I do.
Just as I could say that it is my conviction that there is only an objective reality(as much as some would love to believe that reality is subjective).
But the wealth of truth and evidence more than supports my case.
Although I guess I could say that I do believe that I exist; since I am here and it is already given that I am. It's called after the fact. But that not only would be superfluous, but absurd.
Faith as I lambasted it- is faith in that which is not or cannot be proven.
Which is what faith was intended for in the first place.
So basically yeah, in short I reiterate: yes, faith can be an ill all by itself.
Um, no.
The U.S. government was originally only meant to hear and decide cases concerning legal matters, not moral ones(though sadly many people today have decided these to be the same thing). They left those to the people to decide for themselves how to conduct their individual lives and their townships.
Murder isn't even in the U.S. Constitution. Think about that. (Didn't we just fight a bloody revolution against despots so that we would be free to govern ourselves? What if our future government were to perpetrate the same abuses on us?[hint hint]) The only crimes even mentioned in the Constitution are treason, piracy, and counterfeiting.
You really need to read Amendment #9 and #10 and understand what they mean. Actually, don't just be better than today's politicians; read the whole thing!(The Bill Of Rights).
Aside from coining, running the legal court system, and getting you your mail on time- our government was really not meant to intercede in our lives very much; except to defend our individual rights should the assault on our liberty and property arise.
A Constitutional Republic based on private property and individual rights is not anarchy; but the most compatible political system with human nature.
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
I stated my case of faith and force as corollaries. I had to use an example of an actual real thing that effects our daily lives which can be verified(politics/government) VS. a dogma of faith(which cannot in any way be proven/verified) to illustrate my point. Christianity just seemed the most handy and readily available. Nothing hypocritical about it. In fact, it's the faithful who are hypocritical when they talk about freedom.
"Though his mind is not for rent; to any god or government".
But I don't have anything personal against Christianity; some of it is quite entertaining. If I took it or any other religion seriously though, I might. I just have nothing but saddened contempt for people who believe it or any other theology to be the truth; on faith.
But it has and you said it still does to this day. Why not just call it for what it is? IRONY. Why not revel in the irony and entertain it as such mindblowing incidents, whatever they are? Contemplate the odds. Marvel at it and/or enjoy it all while movin' on. I've had some insanely crazy shit happen to me too; but nothing to make me truly believe that it was a higher power that somehow looks out for me.
Why even subscribe it to anything that you cannot identify? We are so prone to look for patterns and just think what that does. Stupefies and stultifies. And even in some cases, psychoticize.
Limits the growth of your mind because just think of all the useful things you could have been thinking about besides karma, karma, karma chameleon. There's just so many better things to think about than a higher power you will never ever encounter.
And amazingly today these acts define todays government and the countries most successful.
I have faith that they will continue to fuck everything up and that their laws will protect them from their well deserved fate with karma
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
You know, while I don't believe in karma, I do believe in BAR karma. When I have dough, I buy people drinks and tip well. When I don't have it, it somehow gets back to me anyway. Must be in the constellations somewhere.
I'm glad that you spotted that our government is guilty of all three of those constitutional crimes. Kudos!
I'm glad that you spotted that our government is guilty of all three of those constitutional crimes. Kudos!
Dak
mentat
Not really hard to spot. All governments are more or less guilty of such, the US currently just happens to be guilty of the most atrocities at this moment in history.
You originally just said government shouldn't be getting involved in moral arguements, but then narrowed your argument from the amorphis term "government" to define it purely as the US Constitutionally-bound US Federal Government.
Big difference, and I would agree with you on the latter. But to suggest that there should be no form of government on even the local level that must take on moral issues such as murder,rape, theft, assault, etc. is ridiculous (if that is what you are suggesting)
Regarding faith, you obviously are forgetting that science hasn't proven everything yet, and that 1000 yrs ago, it would have required "faith" to believe that the world revolved around the sun. The more questions that science answers, the more questions it uncovers. Tis a vicious cycle.
Faith is the belief in what has yet to be proven. Just because it has not does not mean it can not.
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