America

[razoredge]

LOL razoredge do you really think "character" and "work ethic" is all you need to pull yourself out of a funk? what if you never meet any good role models because you live in a shitty area, go to a shit school, have shit/absentee family, and all your friends are in the same boat? or what if the powers that be are doing everything in their power to ignore people like you, or you can make more money via illegal activities/trades than working minimum wage, and you can't afford higher education?

all good points and always stem into my arguements for taking care of America

but

"character" and "work ethic" you totally missed the point here To just clarify, our youth needs to learn to work, I mean physical work, just so they can appreaciate how hard a buck can come before heading off to college or where ever life takes them.

This heres another example of pussification, when I was young kids used to mow lawns for dollars, thats how I bought my music and why it was little, why my guitar was a cheap $35 deal that I HAD to further modifiy when more dollars were EARNED. Was the same with everyone in my school and most were middle class. Today people cant have kids mow thier lawns because "they could get hurt" and "its a insurance liability". Christ I never got hurt mowing a lawn, did me good too, nothing was handed to me, I had to EARN or go without "my desires". Made me strong and why I became a desirable worker.

 

[damnromulans]

What does the military being strong have to do with a future of facing inward and solving our internal social problems?

I can't tell if you are in favor of a police state or a libertarian hands-off deal. I guess my next question would be how you would handle the current social disease of complacent coddled babies who depend on the government and the police and TV to give them daily instruction. You can put people in labor camps but that's really the only way to make them strong/do physical labor. Your vision of America is a nice idealistic vision and I too share such an ideal, but I also think it's important to recognize how wholly reliant the country has become on imports. It's too late to pull the US out of its 4573248957895349 business deals/foreign wars and de-globalize, to do so abruptly would result in mass chaos.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

What does the military being strong have to do with a future of facing inward and solving our internal social problems?

I can't tell if you are in favor of a police state or a libertarian hands-off deal. I guess my next question would be how you would handle the current social disease of complacent coddled babies who depend on the government and the police and TV to give them daily instruction. You can put people in labor camps but that's really the only way to make them strong/do physical labor. Your vision of America is a nice idealistic vision and I too share such an ideal, but I also think it's important to recognize how wholly reliant the country has become on imports. It's too late to pull the US out of its 4573248957895349 business deals/foreign wars and de-globalize, to do so abruptly would result in mass chaos.

How about how wholly reliant the entire world is to the u.s. economy,its imports and outsources.

p.s You post way too much.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Hate to break it to you but illegal immigrants pay lots of taxes and often cannot get the services that you imagine they use. They do cost the government money in many ways, but don't think illegal immigrants are purely a drain on society. Things are never that simple.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024/

Yeah good point, I could've realised that if I'd thought about it a bit. Avoiding the question of their actual direct dollar cost to the country though, I'd still say they're importing a lot of Mexico's fucked-up social conditions into the U.S. as well as taking far more jobs than they're creating.

 

[Cythraul]

I don't understand why people suddenly get nationalistic when it comes to jobs and shit. Suppose illegal immigrants are not a net drain on the welfare state. Why does it matter that they get jobs that you don't? Why does it matter that they happened to be born on a different spot on Earth? What is the moral relevance here? These are not just rhetorical questions. I'm actually curious. I'm not very well-versed in the topic.

 

[damnromulans]

How about how wholly reliant the entire world is to the u.s. economy,its imports and outsources.

p.s You post way too much.

That too, but I doubt razoredge would care about it.

P.S. Don't worry, eventually I'll get bored and leave. You can always put me on ignore.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

I don't understand why people suddenly get nationalistic when it comes to jobs and shit. Suppose illegal immigrants are not a net drain on the welfare state. Why does it matter that they get jobs that you don't? Why does it matter that they happened to be born on a different spot on Earth? What is the moral relevance here? These are not just rhetorical questions. I'm actually curious. I'm not very well-versed in the topic.

There was a time when immigrants sought out a better life for themselves. Many of them were illegaland they faced intense prejudice and insufferable conditions.These ranged from New England paper mills, Midwest steel factories,and building railroads. Imagine what our country would be like today if the Irish, Italian, Polish, Russian, etc. unwanted illegal immigrants had all been deported.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I don't understand why people suddenly get nationalistic when it comes to jobs and shit. Suppose illegal immigrants are not a net drain on the welfare state. Why does it matter that they get jobs that you don't? Why does it matter that they happened to be born on a different spot on Earth? What is the moral relevance here? These are not just rhetorical questions. I'm actually curious. I'm not very well-versed in the topic.

It's not that they were born on a different spot on Earth that I'm complaining about. It's that in most cases they seem to come from a broken country (i.e. Mexico) that is failing in part because of its social conditions, and that by sneaking into the U.S. in droves they are gradually creating in the U.S. the same social conditions that have made their home country shitty, thus eventually making the U.S. shitty as well.

I think if a country is unable to sustain a decent standard of living for its citizens, it is not the duty of a neighboring country with a good standard of living to 'take on water' from the unsustainable country at the risk of making itself unsustainable. Something needs to be done about the unsustainable country other than simply allowing its problems to spill over into the rest of the world.

 

[Cythraul]

Whatever you say, Mr. Buchanan.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Are you trying to say you disagree, or that you're not interested in discussing?

 

[MasterOLightning]

This thread is not making the old U. S. of A. sound very good. I will take this opportunity to laud our contributions to television, film, music, food, and alcoholic beverages.

Oh, and inventing the internet. You're welcome.

 

[Cythraul]

I think if a country is unable to sustain a decent standard of living for its citizens, it is not the duty of a neighboring country with a good standard of living to 'take on water' from the unsustainable country at the risk of making itself unsustainable. Something needs to be done about the unsustainable country other than simply allowing its problems to spill over into the rest of the world.

How exactly can a country have a duty? Individuals have duties, not countries. So, in terms of individuals, who is taking on this duty that you speak of? What problems are you talking about? Name some of these problems.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Oh, I should clarify that what I'm really arguing over here is the idea of unlimited immigration rather than illegal/undocumented immigration. I think it's a given that the national security risk of having millions of undocumented people running loose across the country is reason enough for anyone to oppose illegal immigration.

edit: this wasn't in response to your above post Cyth, just a P.S. to my last post.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Immigrants of all status are the bedrock of this country. Its easy to criticize them, or view them as scapegoats as to why our economy's going down the tubes, but it is entirely unfair to do so. It is a human right to be able to seek a better life for oneself and your loved ones. The system as is may not be perfect, but one’s status as an illegal immigrant does not automatically mean that they get a free ride without buying into the system like the rest of us.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

How exactly can a country have a duty? Individuals have duties, not countries. So, in terms of individuals, who is taking on this duty that you speak of? What problems are you talking about? Name some of these problems.

I have to go to bed soon, but I'll take a stab at this for now.

As to your first inquiry, the duty I spoke of would most likely fall upon the government of a country, as they're in the position of deciding whether they want to provide people from other countries with a means of legally entering their own.

The main problem I'm thinking of regarding illegal immigrants themselves is poor education. Uneducated people tend to have more kids, commit more crimes, vote for more corrupt politicians, and contribute less to the economy (i.e. via job creation), all of which I consider problems. Generally speaking, poverty and crime are two major problems in Mexico which are transferrable to the U.S. via illegal immigration.

 

[razoredge]

How about how wholly reliant the entire world is to the u.s. economy,its imports and outsources.

Not totally following you here. I think your saying the US imports and US outsourcing ?

And Im saying 10% unemployment with a even bleaker looking future.

So I wonder what you dont get ? This was a non issue 30 years ago, today I believe we are in same condition as the great depression only easier masked... because we put our country up for collateral to Russia and China ? and have the big distraction going on in the middle east ?
---------------------------------------------------

Yes Krampus - total chaos but I believe its here anyhow, I hope Im wrong but I see no relief for blue collar work in the future so I both fear and hope we see the chaos, you know, get it over with. We need to keep more of our incomes home so we can employ at livable standards... without the vise of cheap immigrant labor keeping standards low. Say what anyone wants but I believe this has been a "grand scam" of sorts, no other explainations why nothing has been done for two decades of this flood. No other explaination for the sudden building of immigration offices the past 10 years.

Sorry I suppose Im the only blue collar "type" here, and so many are still in school/college, living at parents and are only idealistic and uneffected, so Im afraid too many are applying the "cant see it from my house". I have seen instances of white collar folks finally being outsourced, so bitter sweet as it was it was good to hear them cry abit because I have taken alot of abuse and alarmist critique but now its here, in our face and I was not crying wolf.

 

[razoredge]

There was a time when immigrants sought out a better life for themselves. Many of them were illegaland they faced intense prejudice and insufferable conditions.These ranged from New England paper mills, Midwest steel factories,and building railroads. Imagine what our country would be like today if the Irish, Italian, Polish, Russian, etc. unwanted illegal immigrants had all been deported.

Not sure where you got this information from, they all came through Ellis Island, got deliced and booted out the back door into the street to fend for themselves, no welcome wagon. Had to do the proper 7 year critera, learn english to become citizens, many went back home. As I said they fought sweat and bled to make this country. Twas not all positive, we got gangs, organized crime, urban sprall, filty living conditions, sweat shops, child labor, but again that was then, this is now, its not even a card to play.

 

[razoredge]

Immigrants of all status are the bedrock of this country. Its easy to criticize them, or view them as scapegoats as to why our economy's going down the tubes, but it is entirely unfair to do so. It is a human right to be able to seek a better life for oneself and your loved ones. The system as is may not be perfect, but one’s status as an illegal immigrant does not automatically mean that they get a free ride without buying into the system like the rest of us.

Way to much bleeding heart going on here, sorry they can improve their own countries if they have any spine. We are not in the position to put our own on welfare and unemployment to cater to those that wont make a stand in their own land. This is a country, with a government, whos job is to serve and protect the interests of ITS OWN PEOPLE. End of story.

 

[razoredge]

How exactly can a country have a duty?

I know your not talking to me but how can you ask if a country has a duty. We pay a government dont we? We pay them to protect our interests. They are our servants... public servants of all citizens, not a 51% "majority". They need to be reminded of this, they are servants not above reproach and not beyond accountability for this friggin mess so many of us saw coming for decades.

 

[SentinelSlain]

Illegals do the jobs no citizen would do, for a fraction of the cost. If there was a way to crack down on illegals without major economic ramifications it would already have been done by now.

And LOL at the idiots that thought I supported minimal immigration restrictions. Learn to read.



You are amazingly stupid. Don't reproduce.

Ignoring popular consensus on immigration so as to exploit migrant workers for not having a piece of paper is hardly moralistic.

In the UK there are often TV programs were they get random unemployed w.a.s.ps to do the jobs that EU economic migrants do, obviously in the program the people they've chosen won't do the work. However I am unemployed, and as such receive a a fortnightly sum of money in order to survive whilst seeking a job. Now so long as the job gave me substantially more money than that sum (which any full time job would, funnily enough) I would do it. If it was ridiculously unsafe or illegal then I wouldn't, but that's about it. I am currently applying for around 5 jobs a week.

I strongly suspect the whole idea of legal migrants doing work no one else will is bullshit.