Apparently.... Opeth is black metal.

The Hubster said:
imo opinion symphonic black metal is symphonic because of high usage of a keyboard instrument in an orchestral style. NFU might be able to explain it better than I could.
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well to be perfectly honest, very few "black metal" acts truly deserve the tag "symphonic" in their description. A, because that requires a writing capability beyond the grasp of just about every caveman musician in the black metal scene. B, because achieving that sound typically breaks down the genre tag "black metal" because it then loses the rawness and primitive feel that black metal typically thrives on to be true to itself in the purest form. and C, much of it is self proclaimed anyway OR given that name by fans who are obviously ignorant and could only name "mozart, beethoven and enya" as classical composers if asked to list the ones they know.

that being said, ideally "symphonic" black metal is typically used to describe bands which are more about texture, actual "movements" and a sort of layered "soundscape" approach using various harmonies and pseudo-classical type flow. rather than the bands which often stick to the verse riff/chorus/verse riff/etc. structure. Whether or not the melodies themselves can be deemed "classical" is beyond my reach for im not a music teacher and my knowledge of classical music "theory" and composition is limited. HOWEVER the fact that a band uses a keyboard with "strings" played throughout the song i dont feel is reason enough to dub them "symphonic". the only bands i really think make that tag without becoming a mocked tribute to the term "symphonic" are Arcturus and Emperor. Those 2 bands have the skill, scope and ability to actually achieve something worthy of the title. Everyone else is just synth happy imo. or just obsessed with melody being used in their songs via: keyboards.
 
Good points there for sure.

I think those characteristics are very present on the latter Emperor albums, chiefly IXE and Prometheus, as well as (in shorter forms) Ihsahn's solo album and also some moments of Peccatum's work.

Good note that few Symphonic BM bands actually exist, I agree with this very much actually. I would go as far as to say that in it's literal sense, Symphonic BM is still very much uncharted territory. The true fusion, or emergence of Baroque/Classical/Romantic with BM is yet to be truly achieved (and I dont mean by inclusion of period instruments into a song, more so to the writing style eg, movements as you mentioned and perhaps Bach-like counterpoints or fugues.)
 
black metal is kind of the punk rock bastard child of metal in many respects. mostly in the attitude and approach. its always kind of had an outcast mentality, even among metalheads and a sort of "fuck you" standpoint. this i think draws a different kind of musician AND fan than normal metal bands. musicians who appeal to the less technically concious side of metal, and more about the emotion/aggression and extremity of it (thus the punk rock comparison). but then to achieve the sort of "classical" or "symphonic" stylings were speaking about in this genre, youd have to find a very gifted, educated and above all...INTERESTED musician to do it. id have to assume most classically trained or competent musicians probably dont have much interest in a genre as primitive, dirty, angry and usually 1 dimensional as black metal. this is probably why its been left and limited to the few gifted and twisted dark minds of guys like ihsahn for instance.
 
The Hubster said:
Good points there for sure.

I think those characteristics are very present on the latter Emperor albums, chiefly IXE and Prometheus, as well as (in shorter forms) Ihsahn's solo album and also some moments of Peccatum's work.

Good note that few Symphonic BM bands actually exist, I agree with this very much actually. I would go as far as to say that in it's literal sense, Symphonic BM is still very much uncharted territory. The true fusion, or emergence of Baroque/Classical/Romantic with BM is yet to be truly achieved (and I dont mean by inclusion of period instruments into a song, more so to the writing style eg, movements as you mentioned and perhaps Bach-like counterpoints or fugues.)
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Well my classical knowledge is extremily limited but there is a Doom metal band called Virgin Black where the song writers are classically trained. I really enjoy the fusion of metal and classical composition. You might know of them Hubster, they are from Adeliade? They are releasing a three volume album at the end of this year.
 
NineFeetUnderground said:
black metal is kind of the punk rock bastard child of metal in many respects. mostly in the attitude and approach. its always kind of had an outcast mentality, even among metalheads and a sort of "fuck you" standpoint. this i think draws a different kind of musician AND fan than normal metal bands. musicians who appeal to the less technically concious side of metal, and more about the emotion/aggression and extremity of it (thus the punk rock comparison). but then to achieve the sort of "classical" or "symphonic" stylings were speaking about in this genre, youd have to find a very gifted, educated and above all...INTERESTED musician to do it. id have to assume most classically trained or competent musicians probably dont have much interest in a genre as primitive, dirty, angry and usually 1 dimensional as black metal. this is probably why its been left and limited to the few gifted and twisted dark minds of guys like ihsahn for instance.
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Bloody hell. That's sort of the way I see things but I could never have put it like that, you must have really thought about this.

Anyhow, Hub, NFU, you guys listen to Black Metal, pure black metal at that, fairplay to you both I'm sure you have your reasons, NFU I know you're even a Venom fan, it's not exactly what I class as black metal but is basically the starting point for the netire scene since. I personally am not a fan, I listen to Emperor, Immortal, Enslaved, Darkthrone and a little Graveland but for the most part Black Metal simply doesn't appeal to me, loose bass chords, screeched vocals and deliberatly bad production just isn't my thing. Besides which some of those bands really don't fit into the pure black metal category.

I don't listen to much but I'd like to feel I know what black metal sounds like, If I'm wrong then so be it, feel free to educate me.
 
Powers said:
Bloody hell. That's sort of the way I see things but I could never have put it like that, you must have really thought about this.

Anyhow, Hub, NFU, you guys listen to Black Metal, pure black metal at that, fairplay to you both I'm sure you have your reasons, NFU I know you're even a Venom fan, it's not exactly what I class as black metal but is basically the starting point for the netire scene since. I personally am not a fan, I listen to Emperor, Immortal, Enslaved, Darkthrone and a little Graveland but for the most part Black Metal simply doesn't appeal to me, loose bass chords, screeched vocals and deliberatly bad production just isn't my thing. Besides which some of those bands really don't fit into the pure black metal category.

I don't listen to much but I'd like to feel I know what black metal sounds like, If I'm wrong then so be it, feel free to educate me.
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There are Black Metal bands out there that have good production. The raw badly produced Black Metal is now classed as Old School Black Metal or as you might see bands say "true" Black Metal. The bad production was born from the idea of rebelling against big record labels, to put it another way, it was used as a stance showing their distaste for major record labels.Therefore, it can be said that Black Metal is an underground genre. The bad production also comes from very low budgets. Imo Venom is not Black Metal it is more thrash than anything (from what I have heard of it). I agree with NFU that the genre draws musicians to less technical writing. However, with bands like Taake, Emperor, Falkenbach and to some extent Behexen I beleive that the genre is incorperating more technical writing which of course is met with hostility but since when has change not? It still has that traditional sound but is more polished so to speak. It's true that Black Metal does have a "Fuck you" standpoint. You have Varg Vikernes saying that people have not understood Burzum and that most Black Metal bands have lost the essence. You have Emperor choosing to not wear corpse paint anymore because they beleive that it has lost its purpose. Also as mentioned before,
a great emphasis on bad production as a symbol of rebellion. How many Black Metal bands have you seen say they are "true black metal" this shows that Black Metal is indeed a genre which is full of passion and tradition. You ask any black metal fan about Satyricon's latest release and I can pretty much guarentee that the majority will say they hate it and that its not Black Metal, some will even say they hate the band now.

I really like Black Metal. Some of the bands have great lyrical content which has themes of anti-authority and anti-ignorance which is similar to punk rock to a certain extent. But like with any genre not all bands follow the same path.
 
Pear Goro said:
want good black metal, i suggest orphand land's 2004 album "mabool." :cool: it's about jesus and god, so it's pretty much christian metal, but the music is really cool. :)
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Hatred of christians is part of black metal. If it sounds like darkthrone but is christian, it's not black metal. It's foolishness! :ill:
 
Great comments all :kickass:

Nichtsicher said:
Well my classical knowledge is extremily limited but there is a Doom metal band called Virgin Black where the song writers are classically trained. I really enjoy the fusion of metal and classical composition. You might know of them Hubster, they are from Adeliade? They are releasing a three volume album at the end of this year.
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Yes! I know of Virgin Black, but sadly I have never had a chance to hear their work yet. They were to perform here in Sydney in September, but pulled out. Spewing about that!

Powers said:
Anyhow, Hub, NFU, you guys listen to Black Metal, pure black metal at that, fairplay to you both I'm sure you have your reasons, NFU I know you're even a Venom fan, it's not exactly what I class as black metal but is basically the starting point for the netire scene since. I personally am not a fan, I listen to Emperor, Immortal, Enslaved, Darkthrone and a little Graveland but for the most part Black Metal simply doesn't appeal to me, loose bass chords, screeched vocals and deliberatly bad production just isn't my thing. Besides which some of those bands really don't fit into the pure black metal category.
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Venom! \m/ - NFU I didnt know you liked em too... I love Venom. For me, Venom and Bathory (mostly the proto-Black Metal material of the first 2 albums) go hand in hand with Venom. Venom's latest offering, "Metal Black" is a great album if anyone wants to check them out.

Powers, it took me some time to get into Black Metal myself. Initially I was a fan of thrash, NWOBHM, doom and death metal. I had real issues with the production factors of Black Metal, but what really made it click for me and turned me into a big lover of the style is the understanding of why it is the way it is. The ideas the musicians have and their reasons as well aided my comprehension of the characteristics of Black Metal a lot.

I find that listening to Black Metal with a non-Metal mindset (or a "dark aggressive music" mindset) helps. Black Metal is very much anti-Metal, and thats something which must be kept in mind when getting used to it.

The musicians are expressing themselves in a very non-conventional way from a metal context, and the simplest way that's given away is by their shrieks for example: they are a complete contrast to the low growls of Death Metal and Doom... so right there, you have an instant characteristic of rebellion against "established Metal".

It may work in different ways for other people, but I found this period of comprehending to help a lot. Recognising those characteristic is important when you're getting into this kind of Metal imo.
 
Older opeth(first 3) have black metal and doom influences. I don't think it makes something a genre unless it's the main influence or really prominant.

Older At The Gates has black metal inlfuence for example but ATG is not BM.
 
The Greys said:
Older opeth(first 3) have black metal and doom influences. I don't think it makes something a genre unless it's the main influence or really prominant.
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I'm sorry but I have to completely disagree. Especially with the doom part.
 
I dont hear any

- *fast* paced tremolo picking
- blastbeats
- *thin* production

on the first 3 records.

What I hear (and scrap MAYH) is fast Iron Maiden with growls = Gothenburg down to a T.

The vox might be a higher pitch, but it's no Garm, ICX Vortex, Abbath, Varg Vikernes etc etc to me. The subject content may be nature related, but certainly not in any Black Metal fashion. And the mood is nowhere dark enough to remind me of doom, nor is there any sludge whatsoever, or any desolate concept lyrically. And I definitely hear little to no Sabbath.
 
Subgenres are a completely unnecessary way of describing music.
I like metal. Full stop.
I listen to some other stuff. Full stop.
I have no idea in what genres many of the bands that i listen to are classified and frankly, I couldn't care less.
I don't like discussing music genres because basically everyone has a different vision of a genre, thus resulting in endless and timeconsuming discussions which you could have better spend at your local CD store.
 
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