Arise and Purirfy

[Talking Backwards]

It's funny seeing all of the bemoaning about the use of a seven string and how Nevermore just "went downhill", and that Jeff didn't have a second guitarist to spur him when aside from DNB, TGE is probably their best.
You can't possibly claim that album doesn't have a bunch of killer songs, despite the riff/solo fest.

 

[Traxan]

It's funny seeing all of the bemoaning about the use of a seven string and how Nevermore just "went downhill", and that Jeff didn't have a second guitarist to spur him when aside from DNB, TGE is probably their best.
You can't possibly claim that album doesn't have a bunch of killer songs, despite the riff/solo fest.

TGE? The album featuring he-who-shall-not-be-named on second guitar?

Face it, Jeff needs a partner, whether it was O'Brien, Calvert or Smyth, to push him out of his comfort zone.

 

[lorinc]

Well, if Jeff gets insulted that's sorta his problem, isn't it? He left Nevermore because he wanted to be Yngwie Sevenstring and be a guitar hero. As soon as he picked up the seven string, the albums became much more solo-based and less song-based. The riffs were there to just play along with the drums instead of having a life of their own, as if they were just really long buildups to the solos, as if vocals to him were just an afterthought. Every album had some great tunes on it, however.

DNB had a great load of epic solos. Granted Tim Calvert had a strong influence on the record.

 

[Dead Winter]

DNB had a great load of epic solos. Granted Tim Calvert had a strong influence on the record.

I'm not saying it didn't, I'm simply saying there was more to the guitar parts than JUST solos and guitar parts leading up to solos on DNB. They lost the darkness of DNB with their following albums. I don't know if it could be laid squarely at the feet of a 7-string guitar, but at the same time it can't be overlooked. That extra string transformed the entire band, after all. That's what they do. It's ironic, but that extra string seems to actually LIMIT guitarists rather than give them more creativity. You're automatically locked into the 7-string style. I love DIADW and EoR, but I love them in a completely different way than I loved NM when I discovered them on DNB. That, "DUDE YOU HAVE TO HEAR THIS BAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" feeling was completely gone and replaced by a, "I dig what they're doing, but where's the darkness? And what's up with all these finger olympics?"

Surely experimenting and pushing the boundaries are a good thing, and like I said, EoR is one of my favorite records (the FIRST EoR, actually), but my favorite song on that entire album is Tomorrow Turned into Yesterday because of the emotion it conveys. It's probably the tamest song on the entire album.

TGE was a great album, a really fantastic album. I enjoy listening to EoR more, but song-for-song, TGE is a stronger album. Sentient 6 is probably the best song on the album, and guess why: the emotion it conveys and the dynamics of the song. The rest of the songs aside from TGE were well-written and catchy sweep picking, look-at-what-I-can-do fests. It came out in 2005, right in the height of metalcore and when solos were back on top again. In fact, if you read the reviews of the album back then, all they talked about were the solos and how amazing they were. The problem with this is the exact same problem metal had in the 80s: a whole lot of songs were just intros for solos.

What I've heard of the new Sanctuary is the first hint of what turned me on to NM in the first place with DNB in the last 15 years.

 

[Traxan]

I'm not saying it didn't, I'm simply saying there was more to the guitar parts than JUST solos and guitar parts leading up to solos on DNB. They lost the darkness of DNB with their following albums. I don't know if it could be laid squarely at the feet of a 7-string guitar, but at the same time it can't be overlooked.

The darkness of DNB was Warrel's personal nightmare. Are you forgetting the origins of that album come from his own unpleasant experience?

 

[Talking Backwards]

TGE? The album featuring he-who-shall-not-be-named on second guitar?

Face it, Jeff needs a partner, whether it was O'Brien, Calvert or Smyth, to push him out of his comfort zone.

I don't disagree with this at all. I wasn't arguing against this, only that Nevermore did in fact release a lot of great albums beyond DNB. DHIADW is the only album where Jeff is at it alone that I really enjoy though. Enemies has some good songs on it too, but as a whole the album doesn't do it for me.

DNB had a great load of epic solos. Granted Tim Calvert had a strong influence on the record.

Maybe influential in the fact that Jeff liked Forbidden a lot, but apparently most of the music for the record was already written before Tim joined. I know Sanctuary and Forbidden had toured together, so they knew about each other and knew about Tim already, but I thought that Tim toured with Nevermore for a while before being asked to join in an official capacity? You can hear Calvert all over the record though. Even if he didn't actually write any of the music, all you have to do is listen to Twisted Into Form once or twice.

I'm not saying it didn't, I'm simply saying there was more to the guitar parts than JUST solos and guitar parts leading up to solos on DNB. They lost the darkness of DNB with their following albums. I don't know if it could be laid squarely at the feet of a 7-string guitar, but at the same time it can't be overlooked. That extra string transformed the entire band, after all. That's what they do. It's ironic, but that extra string seems to actually LIMIT guitarists rather than give them more creativity. You're automatically locked into the 7-string style. I love DIADW and EoR, but I love them in a completely different way than I loved NM when I discovered them on DNB. That, "DUDE YOU HAVE TO HEAR THIS BAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" feeling was completely gone and replaced by a, "I dig what they're doing, but where's the darkness? And what's up with all these finger olympics?"

Err, DNB was their darkest album compared to anything prior as well, so I don't see how using their most oppressive and personal album is a good example of "Nevermore darkness". Would this discussion even have happened if that album did not exist?

 

[Traxan]

I don't disagree with this at all. I wasn't arguing against this, only that Nevermore did in fact release a lot of great albums beyond DNB. DHIADW is the only album where Jeff is at it alone that I really enjoy though. Enemies has some good songs on it too, but as a whole the album doesn't do it for me.

Was Atilla a member and contributor to ToC?

Maybe influential in the fact that Jeff liked Forbidden a lot, but apparently most of the music for the record was already written before Tim joined.

IIRC, Tim joined in 1997 after O'Brien was fired and Forbidden split up. DNB came in January 1999, so there should have been time, but Warrel can clear that up. I don't own the physical CD any more so I can't even look up his credits. I just know 'Beyond Within' was his baby.

 

[lorinc]

Maybe influential in the fact that Jeff liked Forbidden a lot, but apparently most of the music for the record was already written before Tim joined. I know Sanctuary and Forbidden had toured together, so they knew about each other and knew about Tim already, but I thought that Tim toured with Nevermore for a while before being asked to join in an official capacity? You can hear Calvert all over the record though. Even if he didn't actually write any of the music, all you have to do is listen to Twisted Into Form once or twice.

And the Trapped demo! The song Disillusions could have been on DNB:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zFyBeIHcKg

What I've heard of the new Sanctuary is the first hint of what turned me on to NM in the first place with DNB in the last 15 years.

Musically, yeah, it shares some similarities in the songwriting, and that was also what drew me to NM when DNB was released.
That being said, as much as we all like DNB and its darkness, it happened only once. Things are bound to happen only once, and the contrary would be boring. Don't be disappointed if TYTSD isn't DNB part 2, cause I'm pretty sure it won't be - whatever the "sister album" expression WD uses all the time. DNB was a special dot in space, time, musicianship, and emotions that can never be replicated. If you want DNB, listen to DNB (as I do, probably more often than any other record in my collection).

Now, let's expect TYTSD will be a excellent album with a life of its own. And build something as strong as DNB has, albeit in its own way.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

EOR is not that far from DHIADW. Both albums are awesome. Dead Heart got me into the band. Some awesome playing on that record. Maybe doesn't seem awesome because we've heard the songs so much, but think of the unorthodox riffing in River Dragon, the solo in Engines of Hate and The Heart Collector. Great stuff going on there. Don't get me started on EOR. Amazing, violent record in all regards.

 

[Dead Winter]

The darkness of DNB was Warrel's personal nightmare. Are you forgetting the origins of that album come from his own unpleasant experience?

No, but Warrel was in a dark place for many of NM's albums. Warrel didn't write the guitar parts, either.

Feels good to be talking about NM, doesn't it? This is the first time we've done so in about 8 years. Still my favorite line from Warrel is on EoR, Seed Awakening. "The execution solution...we're weeding out the weak." Everything from his delivery to the dynamics to the lyrics still gives me goosebumps.

 

[Talking Backwards]

Also, I was wrong. It's not Twisted Into Form (although you can still hear the influence), it's more Distortion than any other Forbidden album. Although for whatever reason everything after Twisted gets shit on. I forgot how utterly dark Distortion is.

 

[El Stormo]

I liked Distortion and Green both. Not sure why people keep throwing mud at them.

 

[lorinc]

I liked Distortion and Green both. Not sure why people keep throwing mud at them.

Maybe because there are many fillers on both records. I love them both, though. To my mind Distortion and Green are the logical steps to TPOE and DNB (although the timing is not consistent). If I were to be stranded on the desert island, these 4 records would be on my list.

 

[Traxan]

No, but Warrel was in a dark place for many of NM's albums. Warrel didn't write the guitar parts, either.

Feels good to be talking about NM, doesn't it? This is the first time we've done so in about 8 years. Still my favorite line from Warrel is on EoR, Seed Awakening. "The execution solution...we're weeding out the weak." Everything from his delivery to the dynamics to the lyrics still gives me goosebumps.

TBH talking Nevermore depresses me. The band should have been much bigger than it ever was. It should have done Ozzfest 4 years straight, not Disturbed, and gotten Disturbed's high profile, arena headlining status. Warrel should be mentioned along side of Halford and Dickinson. Jeff should have gotten at least one guitar mag cover. Tim Calvert should not be flying planes for a living. I hate to see banality become successful and excellence go nowhere.

My favorite lyrics are from EOR's title track: "We are the useless by-products of soulless meat." and "The less you understand, the more you're driven." That latter line is so fucking true, regardless of the political ideology. leaders like ignorant puppets.

 

[Traxan]

No, but Warrel was in a dark place for many of NM's albums. Warrel didn't write the guitar parts, either.

Has he ever not been in a dark place?

Also, I don't know the Nevermore songwriting process. Do you? Some bands do music first, lyrics later (I know Testament does this), others do it in reverse, lyrics first, then music (Nightwish do this). Then there's writing both at the same time, music and lyrics in tandem. Rush do it that way.

If Warrel was writing the lyrics first, then Jeff would be responding to the words he was seeing.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

Yea, NM should have been way, way bigger but I am glad they have their cult following and a real legacy. Instead of casual fans like In Flames have now, for example. Much better when bands have passionate fans.

 

[Sentient 6]

Has he ever not been in a dark place?

Also, I don't know the Nevermore songwriting process. Do you? Some bands do music first, lyrics later (I know Testament does this), others do it in reverse, lyrics first, then music (Nightwish do this). Then there's writing both at the same time, music and lyrics in tandem. Rush do it that way.

If Warrel was writing the lyrics first, then Jeff would be responding to the words he was seeing.

I wrote the lyrics for Garden Of Gray before the music..and the main guitar riff, and the main chorus riff for Believe in nothing.. just saying..even though it was a massive rip off of The End by Rush lol

 

[Dead Winter]

TBH talking Nevermore depresses me. The band should have been much bigger than it ever was. It should have done Ozzfest 4 years straight, not Disturbed, and gotten Disturbed's high profile, arena headlining status. Warrel should be mentioned along side of Halford and Dickinson. Jeff should have gotten at least one guitar mag cover. Tim Calvert should not be flying planes for a living. I hate to see banality become successful and excellence go nowhere.

Yeah, I completely get that. I was thinking the other day how excited I was when a new NM album came out back in the early 00s. I remember reading in Metal Maniacs Warrel's description of EoR back in 2002 and thinking, "Man I fucking can't wait!!!" Then it just subsided after TGE, on one hand due to band strife and the other the realization that Warrel's solo stuff was better in my opinion than NM's. When he released his solo album, it was very bittersweet for me. I knew right then that it was the beginning of the end because the songs were better and it would probably foster some jealousy/ill feelings among some other members who would (surprise! surprise!) attempt to branch out and do their own thing, fail to live up to NM or at least Warrel's solo success, and then become even more bitter and it would end NM.

I was never really into Sanctuary; it was cool and all but it wasn't my thing. I really latched onto NM, and this new Sanctuary album, at least what I've heard, has me excited like I was for NM back in the day.

 

[lorinc]

Yeah, I completely get that. I was thinking the other day how excited I was when a new NM album came out back in the early 00s. I remember reading in Metal Maniacs Warrel's description of EoR back in 2002 and thinking, "Man I fucking can't wait!!!"

At that time, there was a contest in Europe from Century Media to earn a autographed poster of EOR. I got one of them! I fact, I even got 2, I don't really know why (probably some error in the mailing procedure). These were really good times. Sadly, the autographs on my poster have almost entirely vanished. Does that mean anything?

Anyway, let's talk about the coming album we all hope to be extraordinary, instead of waking some ghosts of the past.

 

[Traxan]

I wrote the lyrics for Garden Of Gray before the music..and the main guitar riff, and the main chorus riff for Believe in nothing.. just saying..even though it was a massive rip off of The End by Rush lol

hey love the details. Share more. How was DNB done?