Ayn Rand

[Kenneth R.]

So... I now found two refences to her Books in ASU Lyrics...
So I wonder, if anyone read her, and if you agree with her ideology, etc.

I read Atlas Shrugged and The Virtue of Selfishness... I agree pretty much with her ideas, even if they are a little extreme.

Objectivism is intelligent, to a point. Rand takes it to the extreme, and I don't think it holds at that point. There is more to life than the intrinsic way Rand presents it.

 

[lars k norberg]

I guess I should end the SA/Rand speculations:

Question; Are we objectivists? Answer; no
As far as I know, only Kaj, Andreas and I have read any Rand. I don’t think any of us are objectivist though – at least I’m certainly not, although I like her books for what they are.

Does SA promote objectivism? Answer; inconclusive
Moving Spirit and Fountainhead (+ Purpose) are definitely inspired by her works. Other than that, I’d say that Conjuring Collapse and maybe Excessit can be interpreted as Rand-inspired (although they are not). However - Rand would not approve to the lyrics for Spinning and Cloud Constructor as she rejected scepticism. I’m not sure about Adaptability, but I don’t think she would like Insect either…

 

[lars k norberg]

Manu - I'm an atheist. Not totally sure but think the other guys are too. I don't believe in old fairy tales.

- Asgeir

Well, I’m an agnostic…

 

[Manu SwordMaster]

Thanks lars...

 

[Order of Enlil]

your neighbour country..

Yes I know I'm childish.

 

[Asgeir Mickelson]

?

- Asgeir

 

[Order of Enlil]

^
I live in that neighboring country.
Then again, maybe you were referring to Syria..

 

[Asgeir Mickelson]

I know the geography. I don't understand what you mean by "childish".

- Asgeir

 

[Order of Enlil]

I'm sure you do, I never meant to suggest otherwise.

At some point you mentioned Lebanon's neighboring country. I responded with a "", and then I said I knew I was being childish. Posting a message simply because someone said something about the place you live in, is childish.
And of course, I was quite drunk at the time.

 

[Dark Lord]

Mr. Enlil:

I'm not sure if Asgeir meant Syria or Israel by neighbor country... but you can't technically say that you are infact our neighbors... the fact is, Palestine still owns the northern parts where it borders with southern Lebanon. So taking this into consideration, our neighbors are: Palestine from the South, Syria from the East and North, and the Mediterranian sea from the west.

by the way, I like the Adagio song that refers to your name... as a matter of fact, i like all of Sanctus Ignis.

 

[Order of Enlil]

Palestine?
Threre are three options here:
1. You were drunk, which is acceptable.
2. You don't know your geography/history.
3. You are deliberately trying to start a political argument because you came in contact with an Israeli (which, I think, is rather pathetic).

Now, I'm not going to even bother, and I'll tell you why.
The only thing you know about me as of now, is that I live in Jerusalem. There are about 600,000 people living in this city. Out of which (I'm guessing here) 200,000 are Palestinians, a few thousands are not Palestinian nor Jews, and there's that weird chap in the park.
So for now, let's assume I'm Palestinian.

There are about a billion arguments in favour of the foundation of a Palestinian state. However you chose to use something I have never heard before..
This could have something to do with the fact that you made it up.
Read UN general assembly resolution 181, and security council resolution 69.

 

[Dark Lord]

well i don't know what you based your answers on, but i'll answer to your 3 options without trying to cause any feud !!

1) drunk?? sorry, can't get drunk at this point... i've been very ill for the past 3 days and i'm taking alot of medicines that explicitly claim on their instructions: Do not drink alcohol !!! :0P
2) consider me an illiterate idiot... but the fact is that i've been living in Lebanon for the better half of 22 years, which qualifies me to atleast know which countries surround mine.
3) if there is one thing i really hate and try my best to avoid and not get involved in, it is politics and politics related issues.
* Now the fact that i actually started a conversation with you, assuming you are an Israeli (or maybe not)... shows that i really don't care or atleast don't mind your nationality... but any or most other Lebanese wouldn't have bothered to answer you or start up a conversation with you !!!
Now taking all these considerations into mind, allow me to explain my point of view:
the fact is, being a Lebanese and part of an Arab culture, we refuse to accept that Israel's hostile occupation of Palestine automatically negates Palestine as a state. The fact is, Palestine as a state was established way before Israel became part of the equation (part of the middle-east issue)... this is because Israel, still living by the jewish code of "God's Chosen People" were at this point located in a completely different region... or to be more specific, they were scattered around the globe as jews. After they decided to join under one nation (that being Israel), they religiously tried to claim back the holy land considering that it is rightfully there's by birth-right, by what Moses preached to them 1000's of years ago about them being God's chosen people and that the holy land is there's. So this is where the essence of the whole debate lies: Palestine already has had its state established for quite a long time, and Israel is claiming its right to settle in this land... and then Israel had to use force ..... and then you know all the rest....
That's why, whether you like it or not... as an Arab, Palestine to us still is our neighbor country.
....please don't answer with another politically viewed debate cause i already told you i hate politics + i still can't believe i wrote all this considering i detest politics... i just wanted to explain a point so you'd understand the view of an Arab on this situation... believe me, almost all Arabs consider it that way.... atleast all well informed and well-learned Arabs...

 

[dargormudshark]

I am a big fan of Ayn Rand as of the past couple months. I still have about 300 pages left to go in Atlas Shrugged and I read Fountainhead a month ago.

 

[AjDeath]

hahah wow, so youre not willing to take a whole look at the picture either along with Ayn Rand? progress, technology and art have been phony from their origins. theyre both dependent on division of labor, complete mediation in a world of symbols (time, etc... all pumping you in the butt for capital and production.) and dividing up the world into a distant relationship of culture vs. nature. what a complete phony ideology that doesnt even look at autonomous foraging/non-agricultural peoples that lived outside of many of these constructs until they were slaughtered or assimilated in the name of "progress." in fact, that makes the whole ideology of progress inherently genocidal of another economy. thats just fine though cause its for capital and ayn rand's lame vision.

what the hell is positive about that other than you masturbating on messageboards and buying dumb metal records while paying bills? can we please have more?

Thanks for this. My mind exploded when I read the first post in this thread.

 

[Order of Enlil]

3) if there is one thing i really hate and try my best to avoid and not get involved in, it is politics and politics related issues.
* Now the fact that i actually started a conversation with you, assuming you are an Israeli (or maybe not)... shows that i really don't care or atleast don't mind your nationality... but any or most other Lebanese wouldn't have bothered to answer you or start up a conversation with you !!!

My oh my.. no doubt about it, you certainly detest politics. In fact, you hate discussing it so much, that it's the first (and only) thing you ever said so far. And all that, because I live in Israel. So pathetic.

1. A partial list of Arab countries with whom Israel has diplomatic relations (in case you don't know, this means that there is a building somewhere in their capital, which is technically Israeli soil, with a very big Israeli flag on top): Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Tunisia. Before 1979 - Iran. In a year or so - Pakistan, maybe Iraq. I guess you, as an Arab, need to think about this for a bit because I'm really confused.. you said you don't recognize Israel, and you do live in Lebanon (22 years), so you should probably know.

2. Every country has three essential properties: population, borders, regime. There was never a country called Palestine, that's like saying that there is a country called Siberia. I'll help you out - there is no such country.

3. You like the game "I was here first". I don't, because I think it's stupid, childish, and doesn't solve the problem. But, if you really wanna go there, allow me to remind you that Jesus Christ was Jewish. And that was well before Islam was even created (this has nothing to do with religion or belief, I'm not religious). In fact, Jews AND Arabs lived here for hundreds of years under Ottoman occupation. I know that because my family is from here. Yep, we didn't steal anyone's property/land, we were here all along. Disappointing isn't it?

4. Obviously you haven't read the the two resolutions, so consider this history lesson 101: In 1947 the UN suggested a partition plan to divide the region of Palestine into two countries. At that time this place was governed by GB. This plan gave the Arabs vast territories, including the northern part of the country as well as the area surrounding Jerusalem (the holly city bla bla bla). According to this plan the city itself would become international territory, and would be held by the UN.
The Jews agreed to this plan. The Arabs didn't.
Now this is the best bit. I liked the way you said "then Israel had to use force ".
Awww.. poor Arabs.. Those terrible Jews, not only do they drink our babies' blood, not only do they plan to take over the entire world, they are always so violent.. so terrible..
As I said the Jews agreed to the plan. The Arabs did not. The poor Arabs were so offended by it, they decided to attack Jews, in what was later called the Israeli war of Independence. 7 Arab nations' armies attacked the 600 thousand Jews that lived here at the time. We won.
Though luck.
We also won the war after that, and the war after that (this goes on). This is very simple you see, when our dear neighbors attack us they do so with one thing in mind. They want to eliminate Israel. That is, to kill all Jews (this is why all of them attack at the same time). So "winning" basically means "not dying". As long as I'm NOT DEAD, I'm actually winning.

About 15% of Israelis are Arabs. They are citizens just like the Jews, they have all the same rights and obligations (actually they don't have to join the military which is cool). Israel, unlike any of it's neighboring countries, is a democracy (don't tell me Lebanon is too because I know this bloke Bashar who thinks otherwise, and he might have you killed like some other bloke, Hariri). Consequently, any Israeli Arab, given the option, would chose to live here where he can do things, like throw cream pies at members of parliament, or listen to Spiral Architect, without having his fingers cut off.

I would really like to visit Beirut one day, you know. I hear it's the only city in the entire world, where there are unexplained natural supersonic booms, caused by some non-existent country's air force. Must be a real attraction.

 

[Dark Lord]

My oh my.. no doubt about it, you certainly detest politics. In fact, you hate discussing it so much, that it's the first (and only) thing you ever said so far. And all that, because I live in Israel. So pathetic..

I think you are extremely pathetic to even mention this point. The first thing I said, in reply to your post, was a Geography based discussion... never in any way moving to the political aspect behind the explanation. secondly, after this immediately, i changed the subject to Adagio because i didn't want a political discussion started in a music forum... how dumb!!! but you had to go there... eventhough i kindly asked you not to... so go figure !!!

you said you don't recognize Israel, and you do live in Lebanon (22 years), so you should probably know.

I didn't say i don't recognize Israel... please read carefully what i write... i said that i don't recognize Israel as a country that owns all the parts that were once actually Palestinian soil... I know as you already mentioned that the UN partitioned the land in 1947 into two parts where Israel took the lower half and Palestine the northern parts... and this is why, as i already explained to you (but you don't seem to be wanting to get this through your thick skull), we consider that Palestine is our border country to the south.... and not Israel.

But, if you really wanna go there, allow me to remind you that Jesus Christ was Jewish. And that was well before Islam was even created.

this is kind of weird, because earlier, you were mocking me because i directly assumed that you were an Israeli because of your location... well i'm shocked that you are as idiotic as i was, if your assumptions were correct earlier, because you seem to assume that i'm a muslim because i'm an Arab... that's a little weird... don't you think?? for all you'd know, i could be a christian.... and to set things straight... yes i am...a protestant to be specific.

In fact, Jews AND Arabs lived here for hundreds of years under Ottoman occupation. I know that because my family is from here. Yep, we didn't steal anyone's property/land, we were here all along. Disappointing isn't it?

not really that disappointing... cause as you said, Arabs and Jews used to live for 100's of years together under the Ottoman occupation... and you were here all along... which doesn't make you any different from my family... I, by birth am Palestinian.... and my family has been living there for over 300 years (they were there all along... just like your family)... until we were forced to leave to Jordan and then to Lebanon in the early 1950's... so you tell me, is this fair? I honestly haven't seen Jerusalem in my life. I was born and raised in Lebanon... and i can't enter Jerusalem with a Lebanese passport... now tell me... is it fair that i can't see my actual homeland??... now that is disappointing !!!

Israel, unlike any of it's neighboring countries, is a democracy (don't tell me Lebanon is too because I know this bloke Bashar who thinks otherwise, and he might have you killed like some other bloke, Hariri). Consequently, any Israeli Arab, given the option, would chose to live here where he can do things, like throw cream pies at members of parliament, or listen to Spiral Architect, without having his fingers cut off.

you make it sound like Lebanon is a monarchy run by Syria... yes "that" Bashar tends to try to run things considering that we have a puppet for a president... but that doesn't mean that we have no rights at all in lebanon, and that we are prosecueted all our lives and treated like slaves... as you'd probably think... you're way mis-informed my friend !!! look at me!!!... i'm listening to Spiral Architect as much as i want... and believe it or not... my hands are still intact... infact, one of the bands i really like is from your homeland.... obviously "Orphaned Land"... and i have "Mabool" and "el Norra Norra"...the original CD's, and look at me... i'm still alive !!! (LOL) ... you get my point here?

I would really like to visit Beirut one day, you know. I hear it's the only city in the entire world, where there are unexplained natural supersonic booms, caused by some non-existent country's air force. Must be a real attraction.

mmmm..... i wonder where those sonic booms are coming from.... could it be from those pesky annoying israeli armed air forces?? ... believe me you don't want to go there... then we'd have to open up the whole Hizbullah Vs. Israeli forces discussion.... and please... that's the last thing on my mind.... politics makes me ... as i've already told you a million times... but you still insist that i am doing this on purpose since you're Israeli and i want to pick a fight with you... according to your deductions !!

*Now is the time to end this (going nowhere) debate.... the fact that i'm still talking to you shows that i'm trying to end all this in the name of music... and mostly in the name of Spiral Architect... so we can start discussing things that are actually discussed on this forum and forget about the bad terms between your country and mine... let's leave that issue to the dirty politicians... it's what they do best: bullshit !!!

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think this resentmentment of anyrhing political is too easy a cop-out. We are all affected by politics, and you should care to develop an individual opinion about things. Without knowledge, you do not have the right to complain or be able to change anything (I mean for yourself, not being so starry-eyed as to think one can change the world...)

Anyway, cool to hear somebody from Israel - not what you get to see on TV about the country everyday. I do some Yiddish at University and have therefore become a bit interested in Jewish culture recently.

 

[Dark Lord]

I think this resentmentment of anything political is too easy a cop-out.

All i said is that i hate discussing politics... it's actually something that i for one, don't enjoy talking about... the fact is, i never consider it my civic reponsibility to share political aspects of my country, or any other for that matter, with other people... eventhough i know quite alot about politics. that's why i always say: leave the politics to the politicians... and politicians in my opinion are the scum of the universe... politicians don't actually care for their people as they're supposed to... they may show interest... but deep down inside, all politicians, at the end of the day, care about their own personal benefit.

Besides... let's assume that you're right by saying that people should care to develop a knowledge in politics inorder to be able to make their personal opinion... well taking all this into consideration, i don't think that this forum is the right place to discuss these kind of issues... everything should be best kept to its rightful place... therefore, you want to discuss politics, go to a politically based forum.

 

[nicosanchez]

Besides... let's assume that you're right by saying that people should care to develop a knowledge in politics inorder to be able to make their personal opinion...

I agree with Occam's Razor here, you have to KNOW about something to talk about it, at least from some serious point of view, unless you're a comediant

Dark lord, you said that you don't like politics, you don't want to discuss politics, and you don't want to discuss politics in this forum, but why do you keep discussing about politics? It seems that you are that kind of guy that thinks he's always right, and always want to have the last word.

 

[Dark Lord]

you have to KNOW about something to talk about it, at least from some serious point of view.

I said i hate politics and don't like talking about it, i did NOT say i know nothing about politics as you so imply !!!

Dark lord, you said that you don't like politics, you don't want to discuss politics, and you don't want to discuss politics in this forum, but why do you keep discussing about politics? It seems that you are that kind of guy that thinks he's always right, and always want to have the last word.

my aim in all of this was and still is not to discuss politics... all the time, i'm trying to shift the subject away from politics as you might have already noticed. And in my last reply to Mr. Enlil, I was only answering to some of his questions and making some points more clear... i was never creating new situations to keep on talking about politics... And to state a fact here, it would be rude if you don't answer when somebody talks to you or asks you a question!! When i answer to every post, it doesn't mean that i'm a bastard who always thinks he's right and wants to get the last word, like you're thinking !!! which is sad considering the fact that you don't know me and thus obviously can't possibly judge me... but i'm glad to say that your assumption is not true... but you are allowed to have your own opinion. If you think i'm that guy, then so be it... as long as you are happy... and the next time you answer to this post, i'll be more than glad not to answer you if you so wish, so you wouldn't think i'd want to get in the last word !!!