Ayn Rand

[nicosanchez]

thank you

 

[Order of Enlil]

Seriously, before I comment on anything:
Dark Lord your debate rhetoric is similar to that of a 15 year old boy. I'm not trying to insult you here. There is a pattern to this.
This is the second argument in this thread that follows this pattern. You disagree on a matter, the other guy gets you cornered, you get upset, you use foul language, plenty of "!!!!!" (you do understand that it doesn't make a difference..), and at the end of every post you kiss ass so that hopefully, the other guy will change the subject.
I'm no moderator here but this attitude (flaming, cursing) will eventually get you banned. If not, people will simply ignore your posts.

I said i hate politics and don't like talking about it, i did NOT say i know nothing about politics as you so imply !!!

I'm pretty sure you know nothing about politics, chiefly because you don't know the facts on which politics are based.
This is not a political argument, as no one ever stated his opinion on any matter. We are discussing facts. Historical facts. If you came here and said "Israel should do this and that.." I would have answered "fine", and that would be the end of it. However you presented false facts (saying that "Palestine" is your neighboring country). As long as you keep doing that, I'm going to correct you. I'm not going to bother with all the cursing and such.

1.

I didn't say i don't recognize Israel... please read carefully what i write... i said that i don't recognize Israel as a country that owns all the parts that were once actually Palestinian soil

That's the same thing. As said before, there is no country called Palestine. Therefore it has no soil.

2.

I know as you already mentioned that the UN partitioned the land in 1947 into two parts where Israel took the lower half and Palestine the northern parts... and this is why, as i already explained to you (but you don't seem to be wanting to get this through your thick skull), we consider that Palestine is our border country to the south.... and not Israel.

That's not what I said, and that's not what happened neither. The UN only suggested this as a plan. The arab side rejected it, and then attacked. Obviously you (or anyone else) can't use it in your argument as a way to set borders, they should have thought about this before they declined to the proposition.
You also don't know anything about this plan (hint: no Israel did not get the southern part, and Palestine did not get the northern part). This is the internet, why don't you search Google BEFORE you display your ignorance?

3.

this is kind of weird, because earlier, you were mocking me because i directly assumed that you were an Israeli because of your location...

Eh.. you assumed I was Jewish. Which is something else. Yes I am an Israeli, I live in Israel. Incredible huh.. wait.. let me guess. Are you Lebanese?

4.

well i'm shocked that you are as idiotic as i was, if your assumptions were correct earlier, because you seem to assume that i'm a muslim because i'm an Arab... that's a little weird... don't you think?? for all you'd know, i could be a christian.... and to set things straight... yes i am...a protestant to be specific.

Show me where I said something about you being a christian/muslim/crocodile.
Reading this paragraph, it appears as if it's meant to inform me/anyone else about you being a protestant. Wait a minute I want some of that too..

I AM A JEDI KNIGHT.
Damn it feels good..

5.

not really that disappointing... cause as you said, Arabs and Jews used to live for 100's of years together under the Ottoman occupation... and you were here all along... which doesn't make you any different from my family...

But you wanted to play "I was here first".. what happened to that?

6.

I was born and raised in Lebanon... and i can't enter Jerusalem with a Lebanese passport... now tell me... is it fair that i can't see my actual homeland??... now that is disappointing !!!

You're 22 years old, you were born in Lebanon.. what actual homeland. And what's this obsession with Jerusalem?.. I'll send you pictures or something OK?

7.

you make it sound like Lebanon is a monarchy run by Syria... yes "that" Bashar tends to try to run things considering that we have a puppet for a president...

You make it sound exactly the same.
It's not a monarchy, it's a nominal democracy (they have elections in Syria and Egypt too. Assad gets 99.7% of the votes as he is the only candidate).

8.

but that doesn't mean that we have no rights at all in lebanon, and that we are prosecueted all our lives and treated like slaves... as you'd probably think... you're way mis-informed my friend !!! look at me!!!... i'm listening to Spiral Architect as much as i want... and believe it or not... my hands are still intact...

I know how things are in Lebanon and anywhere else. My comment about finger cutting was not aimed at Lebanon specifically, but at the entire Arab world. Fact is, I live in the only western democracy in this region, which is why the Arabs who live here prefer to stay.
By the way in Afghanistan, music is completely banned. In any form.

9.

believe me you don't want to go there... then we'd have to open up the whole Hizbullah Vs. Israeli forces discussion

Actually I'd love to go there, as I am sure you know nothing about that too. I wonder why you even bring this up..

10.

Now is the time to end this (going nowhere) debate.... the fact that i'm still talking to you shows that i'm trying to end all this in the name of music... and mostly in the name of Spiral Architect... so we can start discussing things that are actually discussed on this forum and forget about the bad terms between your country and mine... let's leave that issue to the dirty politicians... it's what they do best: bullshit !!!

This is the final phase in my famous Dark Lord pattern..
I just wanted to add that not all politicians are dirty. In a democracy, you see, we have to elect them into office. Cool concept.

 

[Order of Enlil]

Anyway, cool to hear somebody from Israel - not what you get to see on TV about the country everyday. I do some Yiddish at University and have therefore become a bit interested in Jewish culture recently.

What you don't get to see on TV:

Gezuntait. That's the only word I know in Yiddish.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yes, that's definitely not on TV!

About Mr. Dark Lord: Since I started a discussion on Rush somewhere else around here, he is piqued about me, so therefore his hot-tempered manner here. I still do think that he talks way too much and insults people. Calm down guy, it's all easy...

 

[Dark Lord]

i'll try to be as compasionate as possible in answering to your ridiculous accusations so as not to hurt your feelings... first of all, you say you guys are getting me cornered, but i don't see that... as a matter of fact, everytime you say something, i'm answering all of you to the fullest... but some guys over here can't handle it... so they start making me look like i know nothing even though they themselves still didn't learn how to breath... so they just throw out empty accusations... and then when i answer, they quit because they don't know what to say !!! ... like mr. sanchez who changed the subject to some weird idea that i'm someone who thinks he's always right and wants to get in the last word or Mr. Razor who directly accused me of being a cop-out if i don't like politics !!! these ways of retaliating are futile as well as meaningless since they are going way outside the discussion... but after all this, you, mr. Enlil, still think that i have the rhetorical reasoning of a 15 year old... well we live in a free world and you're free to think what you like... but don't think for one second that from your conversations i ever thought you were above 15 years of age !!!

you use foul language, plenty of...

first of all, if you want to state something, back it up... where, in this entire debate between you and i, did i use one foul word or harsh insult on you!!!
you're like every Israeli... you get into a debate... and when you find no way out or you're losing, you file for a plea to stop the personal hostile assault on you, to the UN... then cry to the whole world about it that the bad lebanese boy was mean to you... and then... you make a holocaust out of it !!! ...and in reality, the "big bad Lebanese wolf", as you so make him, hadn't done anything to hurt you ... how typical !!

I'm pretty sure you know nothing about politics, chiefly because you don't know the facts on which politics are based.

Say whatever you like... if you are brainwashed enough to believe all the stuff you're saying about these so called historical facts, then nobody's stopping you... but that doesn't mean that what you're saying is true.... don't believe everything that's said on CNN or in the American/Israeli media...or the Israeli advocating historical books either.... they are biased towards facts that will make Israel look like the hero that is targetted by all its jealous neighbors!!! if you think Israel was innocent and that it was attacked by all those Arab countries and it defended itself... then you're so wrong... like every other Israeli who thinks his ancestors were defending for country and honor... haha... you guys make me laugh.... I suggest it's time for you to get out of that dark place you live in.... your warped twisted mind that is... you want to state a fact... know both sides of the story... not only the valiant Israeli war hero version of the story !!! I only wish somebody who really understands politics was reading this thread!! he would have gotten a kick out of reading the funny things you are writing. You're just good at saying" "you know nothing about politics"!!! you just preach and preach like you think you know everything... please when you say something... know everything about it, or atleast all the sides to the story !!!

Eh.. you assumed I was Jewish. Which is something else.

I never assumed you as a jew...(even if you are or are not, it makes absolutely no difference to me!!!). please if you saw me write anything like that in the previous posts, then paste it and show me... I assumed you were an Israeli which is logical... like you assumed me to be a Lebanese because i live in Lebanon... WOW, you're such a genious!!! Please don't try to twist my words... again i ask you kindly... you want to state a fact, back it up.... i mean where did that "you assumed I was Jewish" discussion come from?? i never said anything about that !!! you try to twist... but you fail... as always !!!

You're 22 years old, you were born in Lebanon.. what actual homeland.

I was born in Lebanon because my family had to leave Jerusalem in the 1950's because they were pressured by your most gracious loving armed forces !!! that means that your homeland is as much my homeland... get it savvy??

(they have elections in Syria and Egypt too. Assad gets 99.7% of the votes as he is the only candidate).

well it's not the same in Lebanon... the 125 members of the Lebanese Parliament vote for the president... and not the people... this has been in our legislation ever since Lebanon existed as a country... besides, we never get those ridiculous percentages... over there in Syria and Egypt, it might as well be a kingdom rather than a republic with those results!!!

I know how things are in Lebanon and anywhere else. My comment about finger cutting was not aimed at Lebanon specifically, but at the entire Arab world. Fact is, I live in the only western democracy in this region, which is why the Arabs who live here prefer to stay.
By the way in Afghanistan, music is completely banned. In any form.)

what do i care about all that !!! Lebanon is the major discussion here... you can not claim Lebanon to be the same as any other Arab country. The fact is, Lebanon is the ONLY Arab country that is christian... not muslim.... that's why we don't have these ridiculous rules that other Islam/extremist countries have... we're the only Arab country that has an official Casino... oh well.. Egypt is an exception... but my point is, you can't put Lebanon into this category you're talking about !!!

Actually I'd love to go there, as I am sure you know nothing about that too. I wonder why you even bring this up.

I would easily go there... but you still assume that "I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT POLITICS".... which is sad considering that your knowledge is meager and your judgment is clouded !!! I know for a fact that you guys fear Hizbullah... you've been trying to get this party dissolved for quite a while... but with no success... to you guys... Lebanon is not the real threat... it is Hizbullah... because they retaliate everytime you guys hit which is kind of cool because you guys think you own the world... or think you are going to do so in the distant future !!! a man is allowed to dream !!!

In a democracy, you see, we have to elect them into office. Cool concept.

do i have to teach you everything?? Lebanon is a democracy... we, the people, vote for our members of parliament. I personally went this summer and voted in the elections... and most of the candidates i voted for actually won. Is that a shock to you??? you thought we had no elections!!! ...dude anytime you wanna say something... i'm going to answer you and show to the others how amateurish you really are... I tried the nice way with you (i asked you to stop this nonesense) .... but you had to say: "at the end of every post you kiss ass so that hopefully, the other guy will change the subject".... well it seems that you are a mere infant, intellectually speaking... and now, it only seems most appropriate that i should sink down to your pathetic level... but i'm not going to do that.... for two reasons:

1) i'm bigger than this... and as mr. Sanchez said: i'm a person who always thinks he's right
2) because Mr. Asgeir kindly asked me (earlier) to relax... and i will more than gladly respect his wishes.
*** so as a result... from now on... you can say whatever you like.... i'm not going to even bother look at what you're writing... even though i said i would retaliate to your comments in the earlier paragraph... but read reasons (1 & 2) and you'll understand. So whenever I see a post by "Order of Enlil"... i'll just skip to the next one since you're not worth wasting time on. Cheers Mate !!! :Smug:

 

[Dark Lord]

he is piqued about me, so therefore his hot-tempered manner here.

No man... i have no hard feelings towards you... none at all... we just got into a hot discussion and things got out of hand... things like that happen sometimes... the important thing is to always recognize the warning signs and avoid the paths that lead to bad results... besides, i can't possibly be piqued about you.... I love the song that represents your name

 

[Order of Enlil]

Occam -
Is that shithole near Stuttgart by any chance?

 

[Order of Enlil]

As before i will only correct the facts.

first of all, if you want to state something, back it up...

"i'm shocked that you are as idiotic as i was"
"how dumb!!!"
"because probably you got the sun stuck up your ass "

Actually this is not what I was talking about. I'll correct my pattern:
You disagree on a matter, the other guy gets you cornered, you get upset, you attack the other guy personally (while using foul language), plenty of "!!!!!", and in the end of every post you kiss ass so that hopefully, the other guy will change the subject.
This can clearly be seen in our next example, no doubt the best one so far:

you're like every Israeli...

And so we continue:

then cry to the whole world about it that the bad lebanese boy was mean to you...

Lebanon has no army.. what ARE you talking about.. Might as well rely on us to save you from the Syrians.

you make a holocaust out of it !!!

Do I?
Yes no doubt, that's what every Israeli would do.

Then we had the long paragraph where you, as always, say you know plenty and show us how you know none.

I never assumed you as a jew...(even if you are or are not, it makes absolutely no difference to me!!!).

Of course you did.
You only entered this discussion because of that. I could have said "I'm an Israeli Palestinian", which would have prevented you from posting your initial post ("Palestine is our southern neighbor..."). This is also why I explained to you about Israeli Palestinians, to show you that they recognize Israel.

I was born in Lebanon because my family had to leave Jerusalem in the 1950's because they were pressured by your most gracious loving armed forces !!!

As stated, we have Arabs living here right now. Those who fled, did so because of the war they started.. again, should have thought about that before.

that means that your homeland is as much my homeland...

No it doesn't. Could be true in regard to your grandparents, who lived here before. But you?
Think about it this way. How many African-Americans are there? What's their homeland?

what do i care about all that !!! Lebanon is the major discussion here...

Is it?

Lebanon is the ONLY Arab country that is christian... not muslim.... that's why we don't have these ridiculous rules that other Islam/extremist countries have...

Not true. Now you don't even know the facts about your own country?
Lebanon is not Muslim nor Christian. Some of it is populated by Christians, some by Muslims, some by Druze. That's like saying that the US is Christian.

but my point is, you can't put Lebanon into this category you're talking about !!!

I wonder what Gebran Tueni would say.. oh wait he's dead, isn't he.

I know for a fact that you guys fear Hizbullah... you've been trying to get this party dissolved for quite a while... but with no success... to you guys... Lebanon is not the real threat... it is Hizbullah... because they retaliate everytime you guys hit which is kind of cool because you guys think you own the world..

Your ignorance is really overwhelming. I am impressed.
Hizbullah is an Islamic terrorist organization funded by Iran and Syria. In order to relieve some of the international pressure, it also has a political party that runs for parliament. Obviously it's leader, sheikh Hassan Nasrallah was never elected by anyone. Israel has no interests in Lebanon, or in Syria, or anywhere else. Israel also never attacked Lebanon without prior provocation(by that I mean, Hizbullah firing missles at Israeli cities).

do i have to teach you everything?? Lebanon is a democracy...

Yeah we shoud really ask Gebran Tueni about that.

you thought we had no elections!!!

As I said, I know exactly what's going on in Lebanon and anywhere else. Apparently you are not familiar with the term "nominal democracy".. you have your elections, you have your parliament, and in the end of this marvelous display of pluralism - Syria dictates the winner.

1) i'm bigger than this... and as mr. Sanchez said: i'm a person who always thinks he's right

That's not a compliement.

2) because Mr. Asgeir kindly asked me (earlier) to relax...

Neither is that.

 

[nicosanchez]

I have only one thing to say:

that means that your homeland is as much my homeland...

The fact that your grandparents were born in Jerusalem doesn't make it your homeland. I have ancestors that came to Argentina from Italy, Spain and France, because of war, hunger or different causes, but neither of those countries are my homeland.

 

[Dark Lord]

I have only one thing to say:



The fact that your grandparents were born in Jerusalem doesn't make it your homeland. I have ancestors that came to Argentina from Italy, Spain and France, because of war, hunger or different causes, but neither of those countries are my homeland.

well maybe you have a point... but tell me this... my father was born and lived till he was about 25 in Jerusalem until he was forced to escape by threat of death.... so if that wasn't the case, i would have been born there ... and considering that my father is a true born Palestinian, then i believe that makes me one too.... that's what i've been trying to explain all along.... so it not my ancestors only... it's my father... so that's very close relations... and mr. Nico, if your father was Italian.. wouldn't you consider yourself Italian too... and that Italy is your homeland? ... even if you were born and raised in Argentina ofcourse

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam -
Is that shithole near Stuttgart by any chance?

Nope...why do you ask? - It's near the border to Luxembourg and France.

What a messy thread...

 

[Occam's Razor]

No man... i have no hard feelings towards you... none at all... we just got into a hot discussion and things got out of hand... things like that happen sometimes... the important thing is to always recognize the warning signs and avoid the paths that lead to bad results... besides, i can't possibly be piqued about you.... I love the song that represents your name

hell, you should consider to write a book - seeing the amount of text you produce, it seems you have a lot on your mind that wants to come out...

 

[nicosanchez]

well maybe you have a point... but tell me this... my father was born and lived till he was about 25 in Jerusalem until he was forced to escape by threat of death.... so if that wasn't the case, i would have been born there ... and considering that my father is a true born Palestinian, then i believe that makes me one too.... that's what i've been trying to explain all along.... so it not my ancestors only... it's my father... so that's very close relations... and mr. Nico, if your father was Italian.. wouldn't you consider yourself Italian too... and that Italy is your homeland? ... even if you were born and raised in Argentina ofcourse

No, I wouldn't consider myself an italian, even if my father were an italian, IMHO.

 

[Order of Enlil]

Nope...why do you ask?

I have this fascination with German cars..
No wait that's not true. I have a fascination with cars, some of which are German.

 

[nicosanchez]

I have a fascination with women, some of which are German also
(damn, this photo contest is right in my head)

 

[Dark Lord]

hell, you should consider to write a book - seeing the amount of text you produce, it seems you have a lot on your mind that wants to come out...

LOL !! ... but what the hell would i write about ???
...besides, since when is it a crime for someone to speak out his mind... even when he has alot to say ??

 

[Dark Lord]

No, I wouldn't consider myself an italian, even if my father were an italian, IMHO.

well each person thinks differently... so i won't argue with you about that !!

 

[Wolfenstein]

Objectivism is intelligent, to a point. Rand takes it to the extreme, and I don't think it holds at that point. There is more to life than the intrinsic way Rand presents it.

No philosophy "holds" if you take is "to the extreme" exept Objectivism because Ayn Rand developed it from simple axioms using logic. Rand maked sure of this by picking the simple axioms "Existence exists", "consciousness is conscious" and "A is A". Theee axioms are the base of the concept formation in objectivist epistemology. What makes Objectivism special is the fact that is uses logic to proove its claims, include ethics and morality. And this was what made Ayn Rand's philosopy unique.

If you think Objectivism does not hold please; point out a contradiction in the philosopy.

 

[Wolfenstein]

However - Rand would not approve to the lyrics for Spinning and Cloud Constructor as she rejected scepticism.

She rejectet scepticism in the form of scepticism that deny the information gained from the human senses. This is; sceptics that deny the existens of an objective reality.

The kind of sceptisim Spiral Architect stand for, I suspect, is the form of scepticism used by Jams Randi. That form of scepticism is more or less objectivist epistemology, because both demandes proof before you can beleve. I am an Objectivist and I love the things Randi have done.

I do not like the fact that Leonard Peikoff and the rest of the Ayn Rand institute still uses the word sceptic in the way Ayn Rand meant it. It just causes confusion.

 

[Wolfenstein]

Objectivism can be summarised in four points

1. Metaphysics: Objective Reality
2. Epistemology: Reason
3. Ethics: Self-interest
4. Politics: Capitalism

For those who care, here in an introductional lecture to Objectivism by Leonard Peikoff and a longer one by Gary Hull.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_audiovideo

And by the way: All Objectivists are atheists.