Best overhead micing technique for lots of cymbals

[drew_drummer]

I'm curious what people think the best micing technique for overheads is, when the drummer has more than your standard crash/crash/ride configuration.

Our drummer uses two crashes, a ride, several splashes, and several bells. I don't have the inputs to spot mic everything, so overheads will have to do.

I read an interview with Joe Baressi recently where he talks about using 3 overheads. How best to proceed with doing something like that?

I was thinking either following recorder man's technique, or doing an XY setup, and augmenting it with a third mic in the middle (in the case of recorder man) or far back behind the drummer (in the case of XY)

How can I be sure that everything will be in phase? will recording a cymbal hit and comparing the onsets of the waveforms be a good idea to check phase coherency?

 

[drew_drummer]

Btw... this is for a post-rock/post-metal type of band. This isn't for country or pop, so I still need to retain the aggression behind the drums.

 

[shred101]

Well I guess it depends on your own ethos but if there are loads of cymbals isnt it normally best to think of them as pairs and use basically one condenser between two cymbals? Why does he have so many splashes? And why so many bells if he has a ride? Does he actually use them? Last time I did anything with my old drummer who was a dick for trucking loads of gear around (that he hardly used when he played) I made him strip down his setup to just what he needed per song rather than waste time + effort on loads of mics for his effect cymbals and whatever. My opinion only, strip down the setup to the bare essentials and mic the cymbals 1 mic per pair IMHO.

 

[006]

Honestly man a straight pair would surprise you how much they pick up. I just recorded some drums this weekend the guy has 1 china, 3 crashes, a bell and a ride. Single pair of NT5's picked everything just fine and even: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/794136/rareformdrumclip.mp3

Also the time I recorded a drummer that has like, 3-4 crashes, 2 chinas, two hats, a ride, 3 splashes, I only used 3 overhead mics and everything came out great as well.

You just have to spend the time, like 10-15 minutes, to make sure to move the mics around until you get them situated where one cymbal isn't overpowering another in each mic.

 

[BLUElightCory]

Another vote for just using a spaced pair. Every additional cymbal mic you add is just going to contribute to additional phase inconsistencies. I'd start with a spaced pair and then place spot mics on anything that isn't coming through the way you'd like.

 

[colonel kurtz]

I read an interview with Joe Baressi recently where he talks about using 3 overheads. How best to proceed with doing something like that?

pretty simple...when he mic'd danny carey's kit for 10,000 days, he put a spaced pair out pretty wide, with a 3rd OH directly above the middle of the kit. mic in the middle stays down the center, spaced pair gets panned out wide...

 

[drew_drummer]

He uses all of his cymbals, he's not one of those egotistical drummers who just loves to see a load of shit in front of him.

I think I'm going to go with an 90 degree XY technique. I've tried a spaced pair before, and I've tended to get it wrong and get phase issues, makes the cymbals all blurry. Recording drums isn't something I have massive experience with, and I don't get chance to work on my technique that often because of a lack of a proper studio. So for the sake of ease, I think this is the way to go. Then perhaps spot mic anything that doesn't come through - I can afford one or two spot mic's.

 

[nwright]

We just tracked drums for our next CD and our drummer uses 2 crashes, 2 chinas, a splash, HH and ride. I used a spaced pair and then HH and ride mics. I wanted to mic pairs (or inidividual cymbals, haha), but ended up going with only the spaced pair and 2 spot mics...My issue is how our drummer places his cymbals...As in, the china and crash he uses the most are right dead center of the kit...So the stereo spread of the mics seems reduced because the spaced pair is picking up the center stuff equally. Kinda bums me out.

If your dude has those kinds of things more centered, I'd maybe consider moving them around (if you can).

 

[drew_drummer]

I just found a Rode NT4 at work; gonna use that for the overheads, and a couple of extra spot mics.

Our drummer has his cymbals basically spread in a semi-circle around the toms.

 

[colonel kurtz]

He uses all of his cymbals, he's not one of those egotistical drummers who just loves to see a load of shit in front of him.

nowhere in my post did i mention that he doesn't use it all...i don't really know what you're getting at in saying that.

 

[paladin shredder]

just record a few test tones with the mics in different positions, and see what you and the drummer think sound best.

 

[drew_drummer]

nowhere in my post did i mention that he doesn't use it all...i don't really know what you're getting at in saying that.

Why are you assuming that I was responding to you? I know you said nothing of the sort See below...

Why does he have so many splashes? And why so many bells if he has a ride? Does he actually use them? ...strip down the setup to the bare essentials...

 

[Morgan C]

How many mics do you have for this? Pics + list of mics would help a lot.

I know Bendeth uses a 3-OH setup quite often (some pics lying around of this).. Egan from the forum got good results with 4 OHs, 2 for the outer crashes and 2 for the inner cymbals to make them wider (Dismantling Devotion, the OH sound on this is HUGE; he posted a few pics of this in a thread I created). Then of course you can go the Bergstrand route and mic every cymbal.

Personally when I tried XY with my mics (PG81 :/ ) the result was pretty much mono, so I think you need quite tight polar patterns for that, and not every mic will work.

If you're definitely restricted to just 2 OH mics, maybe get your drummer to rearrange the cymbals in 2 groups on the left and the right that you can mic closer.. might be hard for him to play but will get the best results for only 2 mics. GL, recording drums is a PITA but definitely worth it.

 

[Ermz]

The Bendeth set-up. Is that a L-C-R sort of panning approach there, irrespective of where the snare ends up?

Personally I've only ever used 2 mics for OHs, but I've always been careful about centering the snare and making the phase relationships work. It may or may not be something I revisit later, but it has generally worked.

 

[drew_drummer]

Can't post pictures, because my camera is dead. But the microphones I have at my disposal are:

1x Rode NT4 - capacitor/condensor. Cardioid. Stereo X/Y mic. Was thinking of using this for overheads so that the phase is correct.
http://uk.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=NT4

2x SE Electronics SE3 - capacitor/condensor. Cardioid. Potentially these could also be overheads. I could put them up in an X/Y configuration. Or I could put them at the back of the room and get some room sound. This might be a bit dodgy though, because of phase issues.
http://www.seelectronics.com/sE3.html

1x Rode K2 - capacitor/condensor. Omni/Cardioid/Figure 8. This would be a tasty room mic. Could put it in figure 8 mode, and place it directly at the front of the stage.
http://uk.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=K2

2x Shure SM58 - Dynamic. Cardioid. Could take the cap off, and use as a psuedo SM57 to mic guitar cabs. Could also be used on snare or toms.
http://www.shure.com/proaudio/products/wiredmicrophones/us_pro_sm58-cn_content

2x 421 style - Dynamic. But I think these are fake, or reeeeaaally old. They don't have Sennheiser printed on them anywhere, and they don't have the roll off switch.

1x Shure SM57 - You know the drill on this one.

1x Shure Beta 52A - Kick drum mic.

2x Rode M3 - Capacitor/Condensor. Cardioid.
http://usa.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=M3

Aside from all those... we have some t-bone drum microphone setup that is pretty good.

The main thing limiting me actually is a lack of stands and baffles. This is gonna be for recording the band on a smallish stage. Not quite live-sound, because I don't have to worry about feedback.. not going through a PA. This is my first close-quarters recording session. Usually I just multi-track everything.

I can't leave drums on stage, and everything else on the floor in front, as we're doing a video at the same time.

I will be DI'ing the bass, wont be micing the cab. Will be micing the guitars; probably wont be DI'ing them, as I don't have any high quality DI's.

Suggestions?

 

[drew_drummer]

I was thinking... If I use the Rode NT4 as the overhead mic, it has a cable with one XLR, to two XLRs.. so you get the signals of each capsule on their own tracks. So I could still probably widen the stereo image afterwards, right??

I'm exciting at the prospect of this. But we've only got the room from 10am - 6pm. We're only recording 2/3 tracks, so it shouldn't be that bad time wise. I reckon setup will take an hour and a half tops... video setup another hour... playing the tracks two hours... then we've got an interview segment to record too.

 

[C_F_H_13]

Here's a 3 OH setup for a ridiculously stupid big kit. Frank Fillipetti engineered. He told me that all three OH mics are the same distance from the snare, and then they are the same distance from each other.

 

[006]

Man that Bozzio session pic never ceases to bring the lulz for me. Shitload of chinas is a shitload btw.

 

[if6was9]

I'd just go spaced pair dude, then close mic the ride/china/hats ( maybe not hats- depends how well they are picked up). Spaced pair is hard to go wrong with if you measure your distance from the snare and make sure they are at the same height.
If its stands you are stuck without you can try mounting the mic clips underneath the cymbals on the cymbal stand itself, should work nicely as a close mic- mightn't look all that pretty but should sound decent. You've got plenty of condensors there.

I've done spaced pair + centre mic beore for a session with loads of cymbals that worked quite well.

 

[drew_drummer]

Hey,

I ended up using a Rode NT4 (XY mic) and it came out sounding really good. Much better than my prior attempt at a spaced pair. But hey...that was my first time micing drums, so next time I'll try a spaced pair and see how it sounds now that I've got more knowledgez.