confession:

[beyond dead]

I`m yet to record a band that has a drummer that can play to a click.

I have recorded songs myself, with me on drums along to a click, but every band that comes in cringes when they hear the word "click track"

they seem to have a mechanism that makes them try to find every excuse in the world not to use one.

it is at the point where they basically give you the ultimatum: no click, or we go somewhere else. well yes it is their money, but anyone that wants to get decent results is gonna have them record to a metronome.

me and a friend have argued about this for a while. he thinks that I should just say fuck it, let them have what they want, before bands go elsewhere.

but I`m not in it for money, I record metal for fuck sakes. I dont want to jew bands money and make them believe they are good, I want to make good music.

and any band who plays death metal with blastbeats at 220 bpm is gonna need a click to make their performance tight, unless they are so tight from years of playing, that it s not needed (the haunted)

so what do you guys think? I`m thinkin the best thing to do is to stick to my ethics. If a band would rather go somewhere else because I demand perfection, then too bad for them. Yeah there are not a lot of bands, but I want to churn out good albums. I have spent countless hours honing my mixing abilities, Its time for them to step up to the plate and take some initiative to get things done right!

 

[DaveBlack]

sometimes ya gotta kiss a few frogs ya know. Me, im on the opposite end of the spectrum. At this point I wouldn't turn down anyone who wants to record. Whether I put my name on it is a different story. I too have yet to record a drummer who even attempts to try a click track. Economically, times are hard and I have to compromise any ethics I have so I say, if you know a song has a lot of potential but the band doesn't wanna put in the effort or money to quantize it. just do it on your own terms and save it for your portfolio. In time, you can say to the band, this is the product you can end up with if you take the time to do so and it'll be a hell of a lot easier to achieve if you practice and record to click.

 

[GarethSE]

I guess it comes down to what you want from audio engineering at the end of the day.

If you're going to be doing this as a hobbyist ONLY then fuck it, just work with people with talent, be a choosy bastard. I've stuck to collaborating with people off this forum for the last year while I've been honing my mixing chops, and it's great, because this forum is a bastion of instrumental talent.

But if you want to make a career out of this, you're inevitably going to be editing shit tracked by talent deficient morons while you make a name for yourself.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

I`m thinkin the best thing to do is to stick to my ethics. If a band would rather go somewhere else because I demand perfection, then too bad for them.

this!

if the drummer can't play it to the click I suggest getting a session drummer....if they're serious about their music the other bandmembers will tell him "well, it's our money also and we want it to be good".
if that is not an option I send them home and tell them to return when they're willing to record professionally...my time is too precious to spend extra days fixing shit cause the drummer wasn't even able to play to a click.
Plus they wouldn't be able to pay you for the extra work anyways....and afterwards they'd complain that is doesn't sound like the latest BFMV or whatever...
so the result is:

- too little money for the extra work
-still a sub par result (bad for your reputaion)
-a band not pleased with the result cause it doesn't sound like BFMV(see point 2)
-time wasted you could have spent with a band that's motivated and dedicated.

yeah, I know, I can be an asshole, but at least I'm a professional one, so I demand my clients to be as professional as they want the result to be.
remeber, the booklet will say "produced/recorded by..." and not "we didn't have money for new skins, nor did we practice the song or were able to play in time with a metronome...it's out fault the result sucks, not our producer's"

well, if the band would put that in I'd record however they want me to....but as long as it's my name I'm risking it's also my income and rent...I'm doing this for a living, I can't afford ruining all this just because the band is stuck up their asses.

you might wanna say that if you wanna make a living you have to deal with EVERYTHING...that's only true to a certain degree...if you wanna be making a living for more than a very short period of time AND plan to get better/bigger clients you should perhaps think about turning a band or two down...
what does the little money help in the long run if a bad result can repell clients for years

 

[beyond dead]

yeah, think I may take up secretly programming. They probably woudnt notice. I`ll just say I edited it. seriously, I can whip up some drum tracks in no time. But yeah, the songs have potential, and the band complains about how hard it is to track guits and vox cause the drums swing so hard

 

[nwright]

Aside from my band, I've never tracked a drummer who could play to a click. Sucks.

Thankfully, I have mixed a few projects in which the drummer tracked to a click.

 

[beyond dead]

this!

if the drummer can't play it to the click I suggest getting a session drummer....if they're serious about their music the other bandmembers will tell him "well, it's our money also and we want it to be good".
if that is not an option I send them home and tell them to return when they're willing to record professionally...my time is too precious to spend extra days fixing shit cause the drummer wasn't even able to play to a click.
Plus they wouldn't be able to pay you for the extra work anyways....and afterwards they'd complain that is doesn't sound like the latest BFMV or whatever...
so the result is:

- too little money for the extra work
-still a sub par result (bad for your reputaion)
-a band not pleased with the result (see point 2)
-time wasted you could have spent with a band that's motivated and dedicated.

yeah, I know, I can be an asshole, but at least I'm a professional one, so I demand my clients to be as professional as they want the result to be.
remeber, the booklet will say "produced/recorded by..." and not "we didn't have money for new skins, nor did we practice the song or were able to play in time with a metronome...it's out fault the result sucks, not our producer's"

well, if the band would put that in I'd record however they want me to....but as long as it's my name I'm risking it's also my income and rent...I'm doinf this for a living, I can't afford ruining all this just because the band is stuck up their asses

it seems like this would be common sense. I dont know if its the water here or what, but Im in a music scene where no one seems to realize this. and all these bands get praise which gives them even more gusto.

 

[beyond dead]

Lasse... they want me to make this album sound like xenosapien lol with no clicks, but I`m not gonna put my name on it if there are no clicks. I need to start somewhere. maybe I`ll program the drums and see if they notice, maybe I will direct them to this thread lol

thanks for the comfort guys... good to know I`m not the only one who hasnt had a good drummer come in yet!

 

[colonel kurtz]

and any band who plays death metal with blastbeats at 220 bpm is gonna need a click to make their performance tight, unless they are so tight from years of playing, that it s not needed (the haunted)

wtf song do the haunted do 220bpm blastbeats in?

 

[beyond dead]

none, I was just saying that the haunted are the only band I can think of off the top of my head that have recorded an album without a click

but the band im recording is brutal death metal between 200 - 220 bpm

 

[colonel kurtz]

oh and on topic...i just tracked a DM demo where the band played 2 songs to a click, 2 without

i really wish they would've used the click on all of them

from here on out, i will not track ANYTHING that doesn't have the tempo pre-determined before hitting the round, red, button in my DAW. it's an essential part of the prepro process, and solves wayyyyyyyyy more problems down the line than it creates during tracking

 

[Lasse Lammert]

Lasse... they want me to make this album sound like xenosapien lol with no clicks

yeah, so you can ONLY fail!
(not because you're not doing a good job of coursE).

Programming might be hard if nothing is recorded to a click...or you have to program before you start tracking guitars, but I can assure you, the drummer will notice if you just missed the tiniest splash touchy thing or so...at least when you listen to it solo'd while tracking guits.
plus, call me old fashioned, but I don't like the idea of programming drums behind their back, I mean, you can always do one song with programmed drums and show them the difference.
tbh I've never programmed drums, I much rather get a sessiondrummer to play the songs...has the positive side effect that while seeing a guy nailing the songs who doesn't even know them, the band's drummer will really feel the urge to practice.

when I realize a drummer can't play to a click I make him just kick the bassdrum with the click, nothing else...usually they're not even able to do that, when you ask them "how could you give the rhythm/tempo for the song when you can't tap your foot in time?" they'll say "I just go with the guitars tempo"....that's when you get them, just ask them if they really think it's NOT the drummers job to be the metronome.
I can assure you the band sitting next to that conversation will make the drummer rehearse to a metronome from then on.

 

[Line666]

when I realize a drummer can't play to a click I make him just kick the bassdrum with the click, nothing else...usually they're not even able to do that, when you ask them "how could you give the rhythm/tempo for the song when you can't tap your foot in time?" they'll say "I just go with the guitars tempo"....that's when you get them, just ask them if they really think it's NOT the drummers job to be the metronome.
I can aussure you the band sitting next to that conversation will make the drummer rehearse to a metronome from then on.

*jots down for next time*

 

[Lasse Lammert]

when I did that (have the drummer play ONLY the kick to the click) and then showed him what he played, I got the funniest exuses (like "latency" and "the click is speeding up/slowing down", "that's my natural groove" etc), I then have the rhythm guitarist do the same, just the kickdrum to the click...in 99% of the cases he'll be able to do it which will shut the drummer up

 

[beyond dead]

I would definitely record guitars to the programmed drums so they would be in perfect time. Thats the biggest problem. last time the guitarists had a really hard time tracking guitars. way too much swing.

Im trying to explain to them that it is EASIER to play to a click. it helps you. I would never record without one myself for a reason. It just saves everyone time.

this!
- too little money for the extra work
-still a sub par result (bad for your reputaion)
-a band not pleased with the result cause it doesn't sound like BFMV(see point 2)

exactly.
lasse, your method of pwning the drummer sounds pretty good. I think something similar could possibly solve my problem. these guys are my friends and I really want to help them take their band to the next level

 

[Russtopher]

Something I figured out by accident was having the drummer track to a drum machine groove. This way, he was on tempo but didn't feel like he was *gasp* tethered to a click!!

I've always done this myself - usually when I record something I program drums then lay down a scratch guitar track, then listen to that as I'm recording drums for the full version (and that usually mid-tempo rock stuff). I just had a friend's band do that when their drummer complained about not being able to play to a click, and he was pretty damn close to being right on tempo, even at the changes. Made editing a lot easier, vs. when I tracked him to no click....

 

[beyond dead]

Something I figured out by accident was having the drummer track to a drum machine groove. This way, he was on tempo but didn't feel like he was *gasp* tethered to a click!!

I've always done this myself - usually when I record something I program drums then lay down a scratch guitar track, then listen to that as I'm recording drums for the full version (and that usually mid-tempo rock stuff). I just had a friend's band do that when their drummer complained about not being able to play to a click, and he was pretty damn close to being right on tempo, even at the changes. Made editing a lot easier, vs. when I tracked him to no click....

originally we agreed that I would have control of everything this time around, and that we would use a click.

he was going to make guide tracks on fruity loops, then I would import them into logic and make my tempo map. then the guitarist could make some more guides or whatever.

but then the excuse : "well fruity loops is only demo, I lost my full copy. It doesnt let me save, and I only have an hour at a time free, so I cant finish a whole song to bounce to mp3"

followed by " (oh no) I guess we might not be able to do it to a click" "oh well"

I basically said: "no oh well" "we are using a click even If I make them myself, just give me your rough recordings and come over to see the progress I make and to give input as to if it will work"

he hmmmed and haaaaaaahed and said "well I have to (insert all kinds of obligations that would make him unable to make it over here) so It might not work"

he has to make time to record anyways, so when he finds time to come over, we will be making clicks before drum tracking starts

frustrating

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

I`m yet to record a band that has a drummer that can play to a click.

Your not doing to bad compared to me. My current standing is 1 drummer who was metronome friendly.

 

[beyond dead]

it is comforting to hear that loren. your recordings sound good. so you just bear with it then?

 

[SentencedToBurn]

yea alot of musicians cant play to clicks and its a shame. but what i recomend if the drummer cant play to a click but the guitarist CAN, have the guitarist lay down some scratch first and have the drummer play to the click and the scratch guitar. If they cant play to that, then good luck.
You could also try putting some loop in there to follow like a shaker or tamborine or even a stupid dance beat so they just stay on time.