Controversial opinions on metal

[Allfader]

But Black metal started 'officially' with Bathory, right? I can't call Celtic Frost, Mercyful Fate and Venom as black metal bands cause they are not black metal on the fullest sense of the term, If people call Mercyful Fate or Venom black metal, then they must call Black Sabbath black metal too...that's stupid. As V5 said, influences don't work on that way.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I used to subscribe to that logic as well but you have to look at how the aesthetics of Venom and other first wave black metal bands progressed into what we know today as black metal. Early Bathory is a blatant rip-off of Venom (no matter how much Quorthon tries to deny it) and each band expanded upon that sound adding new musical traits and ideologies. Some might just call it influence but I see it as an expansion of the style between first and second wave black metal.

I agree that it's harder to classify Mercyful Fate as black metal. However, compared to NWOBHM bands that Mercyful Fate was often associated with, they brought something pretty new to the table that wasn't comparable to any other band at the time.

 

[Omni]

But Black metal started 'officially' with Bathory, right? I can't call Celtic Frost, Mercyful Fate and Venom as black metal bands cause they are not black metal on the fullest sense of the term, If people call Mercyful Fate or Venom black metal, then they must call Black Sabbath black metal too...that's stupid. As V5 said, influences don't work on that way.

How does this post make sense? Oh, wait. It doesn't.



Venom's musical style typified 1st-wave black metal, which is what style of music they most definitely played. They aren't at all far-removed from the other bands that came to be around the same time, including early Bathory. Saying that Black Sabbath is black metal if Venom is makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I don't understand what you're trying to say, but you definitely aren't right.

 

[Omni]

To elaborate, I see you called Bathory and later bands "black metal on the fullest sense of the term" which is totally wrong, since before those bands existed, the style of music played by Venom and others that came around the same time was called black metal, so if anything, the later bands are farther removed from what black metal originally was than Venom or their contemporaries, which is why they're lumped into a separate wave.

 

[no country for old wainds]

i think they had more influence on the second wave of black metal than people think

probably, and regardless of that they kick ass by their own merits

and even more so than Celtic Frost or Bathory actually even though they are credited most.

NO. NO NO NO NO NO.

 

[no country for old wainds]

But Black metal started 'officially' with Bathory, right?

wrong, and so everything which follows has no basis

 

[The Ozzman]

Everyone knows black metal started with Living Colour LDO

 

[no country for old wainds]

 

[divine_torture]

Of course Bathory started black metal. They are the beginning and the end. Alpha and omega. There are absolutely no other bands in the entire history of metal that had more of an influence on black metal. In fact, they are the only band EVER cited as an influence for any "kvlt" black metal band/musician.

Or possibly there's more to it... poop.

 

[no country for old wainds]

bathory rules \m/

 

[divine_torture]

And damn all who say otherwise straight to the bowels of Wyoming.

 

[seedofvengeance]

Everyone knows black metal started with Living Colour LDO

kvlt of personality?

 

[Allfader]

To elaborate, I see you called Bathory and later bands "black metal on the fullest sense of the term" which is totally wrong, since before those bands existed, the style of music played by Venom and others that came around the same time was called black metal, so if anything, the later bands are farther removed from what black metal originally was than Venom or their contemporaries, which is why they're lumped into a separate wave.

I see. Venom for me always has been 'satanic speed/thrash metal' instead black metal, as Mercyful Fate is very different from the general NWOBHM but hardly BM. I started listening black metal since 93 but I've never thought about Venom, nor Celtic Frost as a BM acts but for sure were the first steps for my conception of black metal, so from your point of view, the 'BM at his fullest' that I identify is the '2nd' wave.

Ok.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I just don't see a lot of first wave bands as part of any other genres. They're simply too different. The thing about black metal is that it manages to be much more of an ambiguous genre than every other sub-genre of metal as far as musical traits go.

 

[Life Sucks]

Venom sounds like a more evil version of Motorhead and Mercyful Fate sounds like a more evil version of Judas Priest. Bathory could still pass as black metal by today's standards. Even today we have bands playing thrashy black metal; it doesn't have to sound anything like Transylvanian Hunger.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

I like my black metal free of thrash.

 

[skeptik]

I like my forum free of cherko.

 

[Ben_t]

I like my forum free of cherko.

You stole what I was about to say!

 

[Vegard Pompey]

I like my forum free of cherko.

I know, the guy seriously needs to get laid.

 

[waif]

Listen to A Blaze in the Northern Sky and Panzerfaust. Those albums are more than just influence. They use direct aesthetics that Celtic Frost use.

First off, aesthetics, not actual musical structure. If I record a pop-punk album in my basement with ridiculous reverb and shitty mics, is it now black metal?

Secondly, are you aware that Darkthrone's first album is death metal? They're hardly the best example of pure black metal.

Thirdly, if Emperor had ripped off Metallica riffs, would that have made Master of Puppets black metal? No, it would have meant that Emperor were incorporating thrash metal elements into black metal or at most were playing black thrash.

Let me put it like this: If A comes before B, then regardless of what B does or says, A is still whatever A originally was. This shit isn't retroactive. This probably isn't very helpful, and is actually confusing and potentially flawed. I'll stop.

Since the Quorthon/Venom thing was mentioned: I believe Quorthon simply because it's such a ridiculous story. Who would do that? "yeah, so I'll blatantly rip off their sound, write some songs with the same names, some shit like that..." I also find that in fact Bathory drew more on what Quorthon cited - Oi punk - and Venom on whatever they were drawing on and while Black Metal and Bathory sound pretty similar if you listen to the riffs they're in fact not actually that similar.
But to me it doesn't matter, because Bathory's best stuff was after Bathory.