Controversial opinions on metal

[Manic Ferocity]

We know they were obviously very much defining, but I would not call To Mega Therion and Morbid Tales (MAYBE this...MAYBE) black metal. There is more there in line with thrash metal. I'm just talking stylistically, not in regards to their influence. ObscureInfinity's claim was that since a lot of black metal bands were influenced by CF, then CF is black metal...obviously very fallacious argument.

On a different topic, I still think the Running Wild/Helloween/Dark Avenger/Hellhammer split being called Death Metal is hilarious.

There are definitely aesthetics used in Celtic Frost that were later used in second wave black metal. I simply can't see how people don't see that. It's not just influence, Celtic Frost do NOT sound like death or thrash metal to these ears. Yeah, second wave black metal expanded upon that first wave sound but there's still quite a bit of Celtic Frost-ism used in just about all black metal. Obviously, the tremolo riffing style had yet to be exploited when Celtic Frost formed but they still bear other aesthetics that second and (third wave?) black metal still use today.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I'm just trying to point out that saying "because Celtic Frost influenced black metal, they were black metal" is silly. That's not explicitly how influence works. I can agree with your other points, just saying that your argument is built on a fallacious premise. Bands are not automatically the style of the bands they most influenced.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Well, I agree with the notion that they aren't black metal strictly because they influenced black metal. That wasn't really what I was implying.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

You said "have you heard Darkthrone? Can you honestly say they don't take influence from Celtic Frost?" which leads pretty much everyone to believe you're making an implication that since Darkthrone is BM, and Celtic Frost influenced them, CF is necessarily BM. That's how I'm reading what you're saying!

 

[Zephyrus]

Mercyful Fate was called Black Metal before Varg was sucking dick on street corners. Shut up you idiots.

Who called them Black Metal, then?

 

[skeptik]

Look up some old reviews or interviews. It's not revisionism or retrospection by any stretch of the imagination to call these bands black metal. These bands were black metal before Euronymous thought it would be cool.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

You said "have you heard Darkthrone? Can you honestly say they don't take influence from Celtic Frost?" which leads pretty much everyone to believe you're making an implication that since Darkthrone is BM, and Celtic Frost influenced them, CF is necessarily BM. That's how I'm reading what you're saying!

Listen to A Blaze in the Northern Sky and Panzerfaust. Those albums are more than just influence. They use direct aesthetics that Celtic Frost use.

 

[Cythraul]

Celtic Frost don't sound like any thrash or death metal band I've ever heard. I honestly can't see how people don't see them as black metal.

I don't see how it would be hard to make the case that To Mega Therion is a death metal album.

edit: Or one might reasonably maintain that they just lie in a gray area, as dodens pointed out.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Me either.

 

[skeptik]

ObscureInfinity: seriously...the 'death metal' in their sound is just as obvious as the 'black metal' in their sound. As you said about Darkthrone, just listen to Obituary.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I'm not denying the death metal sound in Celtic Frost's music but I honestly find Celtic Frost to be pretty different from any thrash or death metal band you might here.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Thank you, that's pretty much a summation of my points!

 

[Evil?]

The Norwegians that created the 2nd wave were calling bands the first wave bands Black Metal as their little scene was developing. There are interviews were they state they are playing Black Metal like *insert one of many 1st wave bands here* before them. People who think BM started or that the dentition changed in '91 or whatever need to do there homework.

 

[Rumpole]

I've always thought of Celtic Frost (up to To Mega Therion at least) in terms of being 33% thrash, 33% black and 34% death metal.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I think some of you are missing the point of 1st-wave Black Metal. Those bands are given that epithet because they have influenced what a group of Norwegians started calling Black Metal when they got their little movement started. Mercyful Fate, Celtic Frost and Venom would never be called Black Metal, nor grouped together by any means had not the genre of Black Metal arisen in Norway to claim them as influences.

haha jesus christ that's some serious fucking historical revisionism right here.

The point is that they lay in the murky grey area of pre-defined genre aesthetics (aka the best time for this form of music).

best time for all forms of music, methinks

 

[no country for old wainds]

anyway genres are just for convenient description, and in the case of formative bands we should just bypass questions of genre (allow that they contain various genres) and describe them purely in reference to other bands, because that's how formative bands created their music in the first place (by rewiring their influences rather than working to genre blueprints).

if you really have to categorise though, for me you've got to go by what the logical extension of a band retrospectively was. in most cases this is multiple genres to different extents, in celtic frost's case there's no dominant genre in there as far as i can tell. personally i'll accept anyone calling them death, doom, black, thrash, or whatever else. i'm also comfortable with hell awaits being black metal, reign in blood being death metal, mercyful fate being black metal, etcetc.

 

[sevag00]

LOL

You and your shitty taste in music.

 

[Zephyrus]

Man, I was really misinformed by the whole Black Metal theory. Can't trust anyone now.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Hellhammer/Celtic Frost are pretty blatantly at the root of both black and death metal. That said, by the time of To Mega Therion, the band had moved closer to what we would tend to call "death metal," especially in terms of structure and rhythmic aesthetic. Earlier material, especially from Hellhammer, is much more seminal within black metal than Celtic Frost at the peak of their powers were.

I find that a lot of first wave black metal bands sound like they could come from different genres but do something a little different with their sound. Just listen to Mercyful Fate and Venom for example, both bands could logically fit under the heavy or speed metal tag based on common aesthetics they have with said genres. There's no denying, however, that both bands stood out from their contemporaries and began what we know today as black metal.

I agree that Celtic Frost had an extremely large influence on extreme metal in general, not just black metal.

 

[CF87]

You and your shitty taste in music.

^ it's vag dude!