Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

[AchrisK]

i'll check those links later (swamped with work amazingly)

but i want to tacvk on to cookie's point. every person has the right to decide for themselves what is moral and what isnt. just because you dont agree with them doesnt mean youre allowed to control them.
~gR~

I know this. I do believe that there is right and wrong, but I also know I have no right to judge another for their differing views on these things, as long as their actions are within the law of the land and are not intruding on my own rights or those of my family. I actually believe abortion to be a symptom of other moral and behavioral issues... also things I have no right to control or judge people on.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

a) anyone who thinks that much, is more than likely going to plan well enough to avoid the problem, so no, I do not imagine that people will be thinking things like that, for the most part.

I find it continually amusing how you are clearly Christian in faith yet have the lowest faith in people that I possible have ever seen on this forum.

 

[AchrisK]

I find it continually amusing how you are clearly Christian in faith yet have the lowest faith in people that I possible have ever seen on this forum.

You contrast those things as if they are mutually exclusive. Do you not know the teachings of Christianity?

Besides that, read the news, drive on the roads, shop at the stores. It's clearly evident that the norm for mankind is pride, selfishness, self absorption. I am not saying there aren't polite people, people who do selfless acts, etc. But the prevailing way we interact is selfish.

 

[skeptik]

I am being serious, because in my view, you don't murder to fix your mistakes. Now don't balk at what I am saying.

How are we not supposed to balk at this? This statement instantly devalues for me everything else that you have to say on the subject with respect to how it relates to whether or not abortion is murder. Let me ask you this though: how would you feel about abortion, hypothetically, if you believed that it wasn't murder? I can tell you how I would feel if I believed abortion was murder, as I'm sure anyone else could, and that is that that abortion is wrong and should not be done. However, abortion is not murder, as a fetus is not a living human being, or any thing that can be murdered at all, so that point is moot.

unwanted child business

I think having a child that you don't want, feel ruins your future, and you don't love and won't properly take care of is a pretty good reason to have an abortion, just as much for the potential child as for the parents.

 

[optionthree]

I'm gonna have to agree with Dodens on this one. I can't quite seem to figure out why an unborn fetus deserves more attention than the woman who's carrying it.

 

[AchrisK]

How are we not supposed to balk at this?

Well first off by reading all of what I said. Why is it so hard to look at something from another perspective. I am not asking for agreement, but a little understanding goes a long way.

This statement instantly devalues for me everything else that you have to say on the subject with respect to how it relates to whether or not abortion is murder.

This statement confuses me. In fact, I don't know that it says anything. There is no argument here about whether or not abortion is murder. I took that off the table for obvious reasons. The only pertinent fact is that what abortion opponents believe: abortion ends an innocent human life.

(Though I did it, I actually do not like to abuse the term "murder" when discussing abortion with those who are for abortion. It carries a connotation that there is malicious intent, and I do not believe that.)

Let me ask you this though: how would you feel about abortion, hypothetically, if you believed that it wasn't murder? I can tell you how I would feel if I believed abortion was murder, as I'm sure anyone else could, and that is that that abortion is wrong and should not be done.

Ok, so you DO balk at what I say, and then go on to state that you actually understand why a person with such beliefs would have a problem with abortion.

Anyway the question you pose is both easy and difficult to answer. The obvious answer is that if I didn't think abortion was wrong, then I should not have a problem with it. Removing the moral issue makes it much simpler, but not cut and dried simple. Women who get abortions still deal with a lot of emotional stress related to having done it. Then there are the physical issues. I don't think it's a good or neutral procedure. I think it has the potential to be harmful. But with the moral question out of the way it would not be a major issue to me.

However, abortion is not murder, as a fetus is not a living human being, or any thing that can be murdered at all, so that point is moot.

This is your view, and it is shared by many people. But I do not believe that those who believe it, believe it as much as they think they believe it, or want to believe it. I know, this is very presumptuous of me, but it's what I think.

I think having a child that you don't want, feel ruins your future, and you don't love and won't properly take care of is a pretty good reason to have an abortion, just as much for the potential child as for the parents.

I can understand this from a theoretical standpoint, regarding the justification for abortion, obviously before the child is born. But in the real world, people who have children, even initially unplanned and unwanted children, love them and take care of them to the best of their abilities. Yes, abilities vary, but abilities do not depend on the wantedness of the baby. I do not buy the "unwanted child" line.

 

[skeptik]

This statement confuses me. In fact, I don't know that it says anything. There is no argument here about whether or not abortion is murder. I took that off the table for obvious reasons. The only pertinent fact is that what abortion opponents believe: abortion ends an innocent human life.

I balk at the statement for the exact reason that you give: "abortion opponents believe: abortion ends an innocent human life." I balk at this suggestion. A fetus is not a human life.

Ok, so you DO balk at what I say, and then go on to state that you actually understand why a person with such beliefs would have a problem with abortion.

Yes, that's not contradictory. For example, I can understand why a person who believes that he can eat through his ass hole sticks a hot dog in it. I balk at it because the belief is so utterly outrageous, but I understand why he takes the action that he does given his beliefs. The problem is the belief itself, which is wrong.

Anyway the question you pose is both easy and difficult to answer. The obvious answer is that if I didn't think abortion was wrong, then I should not have a problem with it. Removing the moral issue makes it much simpler, but not cut and dried simple. Women who get abortions still deal with a lot of emotional stress related to having done it. Then there are the physical issues. I don't think it's a good or neutral procedure. I think it has the potential to be harmful. But with the moral question out of the way it would not be a major issue to me.

I didn't say that you hypothetically believed that abortion is not wrong, I said that you hypothetically believed that abortion is not murder.

This is your view, and it is shared by many people. But I do not believe that those who believe it, believe it as much as they think they believe it, or want to believe it. I know, this is very presumptuous of me, but it's what I think.

Well from what I understand, the general consensus based on research and observation and all that good stuff, the scientific community wouldn't consider abortion "ending a human life," or at the very least not in the way that you mean.

 

[BlackMetalWhiteGuy]

What's cool is that the rest of us get to pay for these abortions.
You want an abortion? Get it done on your own dime.

I'd rather pay for an abortion than 18 years of child support.

It's clearly evident that the norm for mankind is pride, selfishness, self absorption. I am not saying there aren't polite people, people who do selfless acts, etc. But the prevailing way we interact is selfish.

I don't want to pay for abortions.

Subtle.

 

[Einherjar86]

Do you really believe that just because the abortion option would be available that everybody will just start being careless and forget about pills and condoms? Abortion is clearly not the easiest way to go about this...so I highly doubt that just because it's available it will become the first choice for restricting reproductions.

I agree with Ben_t. Can you seriously imagine anyone saying "no I won't use a condom, my girlfriend can always have an invasive and stigmatized surgery"? People always want to have sex and limiting abortion won't make them act any differently.

Very good point.

I knew this would come up.

Yes, I really believe that it's going to encourage reckless sexual behavior.

Not every consummation occurs between two partners who are romantically involved. Furthermore, plenty of couples already don't use condoms or take any type of preventative measures; if they're offered abortions under health care, what incentive do they have to start using such measures?

 

[skeptik]

The horrible and mentally and physically traumatizing nature of an abortion procedure that has long-lasting ramifications? The idea that covering abortion under health insurance making the decision to get an abortion an easy one is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Einherjar86]

Not saying it's an easy decision; I'm saying that it's providing an option that's going to seriously affect the way couples think about pregnancy. To try and argue that it will have no effect whatsoever on how sexually active people consider the consequences of what they do is the truly ridiculous position.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I doubt couples will begin considering abortion of a possible or probable child as the outcome of their unprotected sexual endeavors (or even protected ones which go awry, as they do sometimes) to be a great idea if it's covered under their healthcare plan.

 

[Einherjar86]

But it's going to make the decision that much easier; and furthermore, plenty of pregnancies occur as the result of casual intercourse. The people (especially the males) in those situations will be freed of nearly all responsibilities if they no longer face the consequence of paying child support.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Then they should probably make a ramification for such things.

 

[skeptik]

They can already have an abortion. I really don't think that the number of abortions will skyrocket. If somebody really wants to have an abortion bad enough, their decision as to whether or not she should get one will probably not come down to whether or not it's covered.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

As has been said, I don't think TOO many people (as in, a number that would necessarily cause a noticeable increase in abortions) would rather have a "horrible and mentally and physically traumatizing procedure" (as Matt put it) under the plan than how it is currently.

 

[Einherjar86]

They can already have an abortion. I really don't think that the number of abortions will skyrocket. If somebody really wants to have an abortion bad enough, their decision as to whether or not she should get one will probably not come down to whether or not it's covered.

I completely understand this argument, but I don't agree with it. Lots of people make decisions based on money; I think you might be surprised by how many people would rely on the health care system to take care of them if they happened to get pregnant.

And the fact that they can get abortions doesn't matter at all to me; I'm only concerned with the fact that I'm going to be paying into a program that's going to cover these operations. I sincerely don't believe that I should bear this responsibility.

 

[Cythraul]

*sigh* This topic is tiresome. Can we talk about monetary theory or my pals?

 

[skeptik]

I completely understand this argument, but I don't agree with it. Lots of people make decisions based on money; I think you might be surprised by how many people would rely on the health care system to take care of them if they happened to get pregnant.

You are aware that it's more expensive to raise a child for at least 18 years than it is to have an abortion, right? If people based their decision whether or not to have a kid based on money, they would decide to have an abortion.

And the fact that they can get abortions doesn't matter at all to me; I'm only concerned with the fact that I'm going to be paying into a program that's going to cover these operations. I sincerely don't believe that I should bear this responsibility.

Do you believe you should bear the responsibility of paying to put out the fire in your neighbor's house? Abortion is a legitimate medical and health related procedure; it's not cosmetic surgery.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I am willing to bet he does not believe that he should have to pay into any program which will benefit people (via proxy) other than himself. He's libertarian.