Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

What I meant is that colonialism is seen as an obvious example of general superiority. Counter arguments about guns and germs and steel also only serve to reinforce rather than rebut.

Again, the entire group is dismissed in general, generally. Pretty sure I read Land stating that individuals demonstrating x/y/z, from [disadvantaged] minority groups would still be accepted. Just that he doesn't expect that to happen with any sort of regularity. I included [disadvantaged] because Ashkenazis are not, by purely IQ and economic standards (although I think the total history of the Ashk. exposes a potentially significant weakness in the NRx conception of superiority).

Also, new blog.

Edit:

if HBD is a genetic argument, then historical circumstances don't matter.

History both affects genetic propagation and determines/evidences value.*
 
What I meant is that colonialism is seen as an obvious example of general superiority. Counter arguments about guns and germs and steel also only serve to reinforce rather than rebut.

Superiority as spiritually (or in some way teleologically) ordained versus plain dumb luck. That's the difference.

Again, the entire group is dismissed in general, generally. Pretty sure I read Land stating that individuals demonstrating x/y/z, from [disadvantaged] minority groups would still be accepted. Just that he doesn't expect that to happen with any sort of regularity.

Then it strikes me as a pointless argument; because the only reason to make the point is to justify the formulation of some kind of large-scale applicability. If it doesn't serve a purpose of separation, then it's a moot point. As I read his work, he's not saying: "Most of you won't make the cut, but we'll take measures to incorporate those who do." He's saying: "Most of you won't make the cut; it doesn't make sense to devote much attention to you." Not to mention that this is really an abhorred model of society to begin with.

History both affects genetic propagation and determines/evidences value.*

Over millions and millions of years, though. The time frame you're speaking of has had, quite literally, no impact on genetic evolution in modern humans.

I look forward to the blog.
 
He's saying: "Most of you won't make the cut; it doesn't make sense to devote much attention to you."

I'd say they pay too much attention to those who "won't make the cut". :cool: Additionally, that modus operandi isn't exactly a horrendous deviation. I would say it is rather the default position of society.

Over millions and millions of years, though. The time frame you're speaking of has had, quite literally, no impact on genetic evolution in modern humans.

That would depend on the definition of evolution. Of course, I haven't really seen (not that it isn't there, I just don't spend much/any time on it) where HBDers deal with the benefits of "mixed" offspring - the blending of multitraits. More robust immune systems, more aesthetically pleasing, etc.


In 2004, Craig Roberts, professor of biology at the University of Newcastle in the U.K., found the first direct link between diverse genes and facial attractiveness. He examined genes of the major histocompatability complex (MHC)—a set of genes crucial to a well-functioning immune system. Photos of people with the greatest MHC diversity were rated more attractive than individuals with less MHC diversity. Here, actual health—the ability to resist infection—was linked to perceptions of attractiveness. Roberts believes this preference helps humans pick healthy mates.

Edit: Re - blog: I subscribed to Foreign Policy. Great articles.
 
Well obviously people who don't believe in evolution don't believe anyone/anything evolved. On the other end, and I believe more accurately, the formation of you is an evolutionary step. Generations gap roughly at 20 years (birth to reproduction age). 400 years = 5^4, or however you want to represent it. Plenty of potential for significant evolutionary variance/causality/whatall.

I'm not saying I accept that "minorities are genetically inferior", merely that the underpinning of HBD isn't outright absurd:

the acknowledgement and study of how humans differ from each other on both the individual and group levels because of differences in genotype. Differences include, but are not limited to, personality traits, athletic ability, intelligence, height, health, and physical appearance.

(courtesy of ud)
 
400 years is nothing! Almost literally nothing; what significant evolutionary advantage do you think can happen in less than half a millennium? How many radical changes have we documented that have actually occurred within the past 500 years, in humans or other species? Finally, how many in the realm of intelligence?

Attributing intelligence to genetics is not supported by evidence, it's intuited from the evidence of differences in IQ whilst downplaying other likely factors.
 
400 years is nothing! Almost literally nothing; what significant evolutionary advantage do you think can happen in less than half a millennium? How many radical changes have we documented that have actually occurred within the past 500 years, in humans or other species? Finally, how many in the realm of intelligence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ro9aebFZhM

It doesn't take much.

Additionally, there are the further realities of greater variation within races than between. But variation within vs between doesn't erase the between and doesn't diminish the enormity of difference.

Attributing intelligence to genetics is not supported by evidence, it's intuited from the evidence of differences in IQ whilst downplaying other likely factors.

That might be the case, but I think the argument goes that those other factors are also significantly genetically driven first. That might look like a chicken/egg problem, but further arguments would reference a "snowball" effect of certain beneficial mutations, so environmental factors become preconditioned by prior manipulation by expressed genetics from relatively close similar expressions.
 
David, do you have any idea how fucking long it took for humans to evolve from chimps?

I've seen that video before. I know how close we are genetically to chimps. The point is that four hundred years is not enough time for any significant degree of difference to emerge! You have to understand this.

Hominids appeared roughly 5 million years ago. Primates go back more than 50 million years.
 
And how long did it take to get from a single cell to chimps? What is the genetic difference required to be at nuclear tech vs stone age tech?

Of course, I think this is (much) less a function of interspecie genetic determination than pressures of necessity, but there is some contingent factor in genetics, just like "Superior" is contingent (and subjective), but I don't think that difference is subjective. HBDers want to ignore some contingents - SJers want to selectively ignore some, others, or accept the same as it benefits politically.

It would be amusing to watch NRxers change their tune about what consitutes superiority if the coming pole reversal led to the complete undoing of global electric tech compounded with a significantly increased bombardment of solar radiation. Supposed asian/ashk/white brain spec superiority falls before the simple protection of higher melanin levels and (in Africa at least) a lack of electric dependency.
 
And how long did it take to get from a single cell to chimps? What is the genetic difference required to be at nuclear tech vs stone age tech?

Of course, I think this is (much) less a function of interspecie genetic determination than pressures of necessity, but there is some contingent factor in genetics, just like "Superior" is contingent (and subjective), but I don't think that difference is subjective. HBDers want to ignore some contingents - SJers want to selectively ignore some, others, or accept the same as it benefits politically.

So, here's the deal: if you recall, we recently had something of a discussion over logic. HBD works as a logical argument only insofar as you accept its premise that genetics - within our given socio-historical period and species selection - has a measurable influence on intelligence.

However, instead of seeking evidence that genetics has a strong impact on intelligence, they have identified differences in intelligence and attributed these differences to genetics.

Not only is this illogical, it doesn't even abide by any remotely convincing parameters of "intelligence." As you said, there's a difference between stone age technology and nuclear; but it's impossible to deem one group more intelligent than the other. Intelligence is not, and cannot, be a universal measuring rod. The definition of intelligence varies depending on when and where we're talking about. Comparing stone age and nuclear assumes they're comparable in a qualitative way.

Now, I'm not saying that there is no genetic difference at all; obviously, it's quite clear that genetics contribute to evolution. However, it's impossible to isolate genes as a source of intelligence given that all species are inextricable from their surroundings, which constitute an unavoidable set of circumstances far more influential than genes would be, assuming they could act in a vacuum.

If history and environment have the more powerful impact - and there's no reason to assume that they do not - then an argument for exclusion and/or social selection based on genetics is simply stupid. Proposing the idea in the first place ruins one's credibility and subverts all its intentions. There is no reason to pursue any form of social organization that espouses such a policy, and no reason to entertain the fantasy.
 
So there are four different, and really separate arguments/objections:

So, here's the deal: if you recall, we recently had something of a discussion over logic. HBD works as a logical argument only insofar as you accept its premise that genetics - within our given socio-historical period and species selection - has a measurable influence on intelligence.

However, instead of seeking evidence that genetics has a strong impact on intelligence, they have identified differences in intelligence and attributed these differences to genetics.

I'm not familiar enough with the findings or methods of genetic research to comment one way or the other on HBD methods. But the charges sound oversimplified. Additionally, charges of "backwards facing research" would cover pretty much all research. Recently there was an outcry about the potential discovery of what was labeled a "gay" gene. We certainly observed homosexuality before we knew of genetics.

Not only is this illogical, it doesn't even abide by any remotely convincing parameters of "intelligence." As you said, there's a difference between stone age technology and nuclear; but it's impossible to deem one group more intelligent than the other. Intelligence is not, and cannot, be a universal measuring rod. The definition of intelligence varies depending on when and where we're talking about. Comparing stone age and nuclear assumes they're comparable in a qualitative way.

No contention here. But NRxers would argue that while maybe imperfect or incomplete, IQ tests are a generally reasonable predictor of social and technological development/value (we are talking about technofuturists here), and so can be used as a sufficient barometer of "acceptability". It is in addition that the HBD angle is tying IQ to genes.


However, it's impossible to isolate genes as a source of intelligence given that all species are inextricable from their surroundings, which constitute an unavoidable set of circumstances far more influential than genes would be, assuming they could act in a vacuum.

If history and environment have the more powerful impact - and there's no reason to assume that they do not

Isolate them as a sole source sure. But psych studies have already found some traits are heavily determined by genetics via Explained Variation, mostly via twin tests. The most recent popular research called out self-control as significantly gene-based, and self-control is correlated with all sorts of good things.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24142448

http://theconversation.com/temper-trap-the-genetics-of-aggression-and-self-control-26110

then an argument for exclusion and/or social selection based on genetics is simply stupid.

Well currently I don't think NRxers have quite fallen that far into eugenics (although the more confident geneticists get, they probably would). But if your ideal society is void of a/b/c traits, and you can pinpoint genetic underpinnings for those traits, then it would require significant dissonance to be inclusive of those genes.
 
I'm not familiar enough with the findings or methods of genetic research to comment one way or the other on HBD methods. But the charges sound oversimplified. Additionally, charges of "backwards facing research" would cover pretty much all research. Recently there was an outcry about the potential discovery of what was labeled a gay gene. We certainly observed homosexuality before we knew of genetics.

Research always seeks to substantiate a hypothesis, yes; but in the case of HBD, the evidence derived from research simply holds little to no bearing. The criticism of "backwards facing research" is, in the case of genetic determination (particularly regarding intelligence), especially strong and far more pronounced than in other fields.

The backlash against the proposition that homosexuality is historically conditioned (from the Left, mind you) derives from a misapprehension of what the argument entails. Those in the historicist vein aren't implying that homosexuality is a choice influenced by historical conditions, and that all individuals are inherently straight. They're saying that sexual orientation has no origin in biology or genetics, and that it accumulates over time and with certain dynamics. Since the vast majority of cultures on this planet encourage marriage of men and women, it only makes sense that ideologically we find a repression of homosexuality.

This is a far more convincing argument than any "gay" gene.

No contention here. But NRxers would argue that while maybe imperfect or incomplete, IQ tests are a generally reasonable predictor of social and technological development/value (we are talking about technofuturists here), and so can be used as a sufficient barometer of "acceptability". It is in addition that the HBD angle is tying IQ to genes.

How can it be a reliable predictor if we already agreed that technological development exists beyond the parameters of what IQ tests can measure? That's great that they might argue that, but it's unsound. I'm not sure where you stand, but you do realize that their argument, as you summarized it above, is unsound if we agree that technological development is contextually limited.

Isolate them as a sole source sure. But psych studies have already found some traits are heavily determined by genetics via Explained Variation, mostly via twin tests. The most recent popular research called out self-control as significantly gene-based, and self-control is correlated with all sorts of good things.

I'm mostly interested in the "Criticism" at the end of that Wiki article.

Well currently I don't think NRxers have quite fallen that far into eugenics (although the more confident geneticists get, they probably would). But if your ideal society is void of a/b/c traits, and you can pinpoint genetic underpinnings for those traits, then it would require significant dissonance to be inclusive of those genes.

You know, I read this, and I think: "It requires significant dissonance to justify exclusion based on entirely whimsical fantasies of genetic superiority."

If we're looking for excuses to rid ourselves of the unclean, then there's no reason for sound argument or engagement. Which makes perfect sense considering the lack thereof in all aspects of HBD. As I see it, knowledge of pure genetics is impossible because behavior is bound to environment. I don't understand the obsession with the command and control of pure genetics except for the purposes of biopower.
 
Did you see the study posted on OI today?

I don't see how anyone can rationally deny genetics as underpinning everything we see in any biological entity. The question then becomes by how much rather than if. My understanding is that genes and environments provide intersecting ranges and probabilities rather than absolute settings, and genetic evolution can shift those ranges or eliminate/add ranges - but that environment can't immediately elicit something outside of available genetic ranges. Additionally, the outer bounds of a genetic range are going to be of reduced expression probability.
 
I'm not denying that genetics don't exist. I'm saying that an approach to pure genetic determinism can only be ideological since any conclusions will never result in objective knowledge of genetic influence.

We can't know the tendency of genetic behavior unless we witness said behavior in an organism, and this means exposing the organism to an environment. Any amount of genetic influence is not only greatly reduced at this point, but becomes an unattainable ideal of study.

If an "environment can't immediately elicit something outside of available genetic ranges," then the organism dies; but this isn't happening to various races among the human species. Any intelligence differential or genetic adaptation is so slight, in this circumstance, as to be absolutely negligible and indeterminate.
 
I'm not denying that genetics don't exist. I'm saying that an approach to pure genetic determinism can only be ideological since any conclusions will never result in objective knowledge of genetic influence.

We can't know the tendency of genetic behavior unless we witness said behavior in an organism, and this means exposing the organism to an environment. Any amount of genetic influence is not only greatly reduced at this point, but becomes an unattainable ideal of study.

Now who sounds defeatist? ;) I would assume we can't perfectly know the contingent properties of genetics (agreeing that we can't know the thing in itself), but our knowledge can approach it.

If an "environment can't immediately elicit something outside of available genetic ranges," then the organism dies; but this isn't happening to various races among the human species. Any intelligence differential or genetic adaptation is so slight, in this circumstance, as to be absolutely negligible and indeterminate.

I don't know where this comes from. Humans have lived for years in a desert environment - but the Bedouins haven't developed humps like their camels. They also aren't uniformly dropping like flies either.
 
If an organism can survive in an environment, then it's within its genetic range to be able to do so. If a specific environment requires a genetic trait that said organism doesn't have, it will die unless it develops the technology (tekne) necessary to supplement the adaptation. This is what I assumed you meant by an environment eliciting something that isn't available within the genetic spectrum of an organism.

Finally, I don't think I'm being defeatist. I'm saying we need to more critically and capably assess the historical conditions of our existence rather than ponder indeterminate genetic origins.
 
I feel a bit like I'm putting myself on database of ungrateful and unpunished meagrelings by posting this, but I have to say, I'm more inclined to what Einjerjar said about dem terorriss since reading this book:

[ame]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spies-Lies-Whistleblowers-Shayler-Affair/dp/185776952X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1405036451&sr=8-2&keywords=Shayler[/ame]

basically dem spookies sent monies to dem good old afghanistooni n Olibbyvian tewwowists to deal wid gwadwfaddaffi back in deh early 90s. it wudda rsulted in ishlaymist twakeover odd l'olivbia.
 
http://www.lacan.com/essays/?page_id=2

Much better Zizek:

The basic paradox here is that the specifically human dimension—drive as opposed to instinct—emerges precisely when what was originally a mere by-product is elevated into an autonomous aim: man is not more “reflexive”; on the contrary, man perceives as a direct goal what, for an animal, has no intrinsic value. In short, the zero-degree of “humanization” is not a further “mediation” of animal activity, its re-inscription as a subordinated moment of a higher totality (say, we eat and procreate in order to develop higher spiritual potentials), but the radical narrowing of focus, the elevation of a minor activity into an end-in-itself. We become “humans” when we get caught into a closed, self-propelling loop of repeating the same gesture and finding satisfaction in it. We all recall one of the archetypal scenes from cartoons: while dancing, the cat jumps up into the air and turns around its own axis; however, instead of falling back down towards the earth’s surface in accordance with the normal laws of gravity, it remains for some time suspended in the air, turning around in the levitated position as if caught in a loop of time, repeating the same circular movement on and on. (One also finds the same shot in some musical comedies which make use of the elements of slapstick: when a dancer turns around him—or herself in the air, s/he remains up there a little bit too long, as if, for a short period of time, s/he succeeded in suspending the law of gravity. And, effectively, is such an effect not the ultimate goal of the art of dancing?) In such moments, the “normal” run of things, the »normal« process of being caught in the imbecilic inertia of material reality, is for a brief moment suspended; we enter the magical domain of a suspended animation, of a kind of ethereal rotation which, as it were, sustains itself, hanging in the air like Baron Munchhausen who raised himself from the swamp by grabbing his own hair and pulling himself up. This rotary movement, in which the lineral progress of time is suspended in a repetitive loop, is DRIVE at its most elementary. This, again, is “humanization” at its zero-level: this self-propelling loop which suspends/disrupts linear temporal enchainment.

Consequently, the concept of drive makes the alternative “either burned by the Thing or maintaining a distance” false: in a drive, the “thing itself” is a circulation around the void (or, rather, hole, not void). To put it even more pointedly, the object of drive is not related to the Thing as a filler of its void: drive is literally a counter-movement to desire, it does not strive towards impossible fullness and, being forced to renounce it, gets stuck onto a partial object as its remainder—drive is quite literally the very “drive” to BREAK the All of continuity in which we are embedded, to introduce a radical imbalance into it, and the difference between drive and desire it precisely that, in desire, this cut, this fixation onto a partial object, is as it were “transcendentalized,” transposed into a stand-in for the void of the Thing.

This is also how one should read Lacan’s thesis on the “satisfaction of drives”: a drive does not bring satisfaction because its object is a stand-in for the Thing, but because a drive as it were turns failure into a triumph—in it, the very failure to reach its goal, the repetition of this failure, the endless circulation around the object, generates a satisfaction of its own. As Lacan put it, the true AIM of a drive is not to reach its goal, but to circulate endlessly around it. In the well-known vulgar joke about a fool having his first intercourse, the girl has to tell him exactly what to do: “See this hole between my legs? Put it in here. Now push it deep. Now pull it out. Push it in, pull it out, push it in, pull it out…” “Now wait a minute,” the fool interrupts her, “make up your mind! In or out?” What the fool misses is precisely the structure of a drive which gets its satisfaction from the indecision itself, from repeated oscillation. In other words, what the fool misses is differance.