Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

Yeah, he's still too recent to warrant significant attention in the classroom. I wouldn't say that Brassier dislikes Land though. He actually co-wrote the introduction to the collection of Land's writings, Fanged Noumena. He definitely disagrees with some of Land's conclusions, but in that intro he writes that the challenges Land's work poses "cannot be circumvented" by contemporary philosophy.
 
https://nithgrim.wordpress.com/2016/05/11/what-is-marxism/

While I probably don't share the author's attitude, this post is generally pretty accurate and agreeable. Academia today is in the thralls of "post-Marxism," which doesn't mean we've abandoned Marxism wholesale as much as we've abandoned its underlying methodology while retaining its polemics.

Obviously I don't agree that Judith Butler is a "charlatan," but I tend to believe that most people who hold this position misinterpret Butler's work. And I don't think that the lingering traces of Marxism can be entirely reduced to a "set of shibboleths." Marxism's persisting influence today, in my opinion, is its introduction of a truly critical approach (i.e. ideology critique), which until the nineteenth century hadn't really existed in philosophy. The point today is that Marxism has absolutely been absorbed into ideology, having become, in some countries, its own ideology, while having fallen victim to a non-critical pathos in others.

The author mentions Anderson's Imagined Communities, which - along with a slew of other late structuralist theoretical texts - was already documenting Marxism's slide from a critical to a mostly rhetorical practice.
 
It's kind of a curiosity that the author conflates the New Left with Mencken.

I think the primary charge against Butler is that no one can be sure about their interpretation.
 
It's kind of a curiosity that the author conflates the New Left with Mencken.

I think the primary charge against Butler is that no one can be sure about their interpretation.

:D Well, that may be true. Although to be fair, one can say the same about plenty of other philosophers, including Kant.


This is the more polemical strain of anti-Marxism. Good points, but I have an issue with those opening comments.

For me, comparing the "ideas" of Marx and Hitler is a total red herring. Marx wasn't the leader of the Soviet Union. Hitler was the leader of Nazi Germany. To me, that just comes off as more of the same rhetorical hogwash that we see from democrats who compare Bush to Hitler.

Drawing responsibility back to "ideas," especially when the person who wrote them was in no control over their application, seems like a really flimsy premise.
 
:D Well, that may be true. Although to be fair, one can say the same about plenty of other philosophers, including Kant.

The mere nature of metaphysics makes for dense and difficult reading. But I don't think that makes for any comparison to unnecessarily convoluted sociological critiques.

For me, comparing the "ideas" of Marx and Hitler is a total red herring. Marx wasn't the leader of the Soviet Union. Hitler was the leader of Nazi Germany. To me, that just comes off as more of the same rhetorical hogwash that we see from democrats who compare Bush to Hitler.

Drawing responsibility back to "ideas," especially when the person who wrote them was in no control over their application, seems like a really flimsy premise.

Well it's a little flimsy; I wouldn't call it really flimsy. If there were some country were things turned out really awesome if people had just rightly applied the ideas of Marx as a counterpoint for "misapplication" arguments, I think the argument of misapplication would have at least some sort of counterpoint. Having Cuba and North Korea as lead bannermen isn't very compelling.

Bush to Hitler has a few generalized parallels, but there's barely a dimes worth of difference between Dubya and any of his contemporaries, so concerns about "the next Hitler" ring hollow.
 
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The mere nature of metaphysics makes for dense and difficult reading. But I don't think that makes for any comparison to unnecessarily convoluted sociological critiques.

The necessity of convolution depends on the subject matter. Niklas Luhmann (in)famously said that his writing is intentionally obscurantist because he felt that was the only way to express the nuances of his arguments. Most late structuralism was written during a time when science, technology, and philosophy were reeling from a paradigm shift. Historically, I'd trace it back to the quantum boom and Einsteinian physics - models of the universe that hinged on paradox. Technology followed suit - cybernetics and communications, which boomed after WWII, began experiencing difficult issues with complex organization and systemic interference. And Heidegger pushed philosophy over into its anti-humanist domain whilst trying to cling to "being." Sometimes convoluted writing is necessary when you want to construct a theoretical model in the wake of such paradigmatic evolution.

Butler was writing at the tail end of this trend. I give her the benefit of the doubt. Furthermore, it's like any other dense metaphysical text; once you spend the necessary time with it, it makes sense.

Well it's a little flimsy; I wouldn't call it really flimsy. If there were some country were things turned out really awesome if people had just rightly applied the ideas of Marx as a counterpoint for "misapplication" arguments, I think the argument of misapplication would have at least some sort of counterpoint. Having Cuba and North Korea as lead bannermen isn't very compelling.

Bush to Hitler has a few generalized parallels, but there's barely a dimes worth of difference between Dubya and any of his contemporaries, so concerns about "the next Hitler" ring hollow.

Anyone can manipulate anything for rhetorical/ideological purposes. Any text, any philosophy, can become fodder for depraved, reprehensible activities. Marx's writings never endorsed mass killings or executions. It makes no sense, in my opinion, to say that his work is responsible for the atrocities of the Soviet Union, or the plight of any other communist country.

Marx was incredibly intelligent, not a charlatan at all. There's no doubt in my mind that he saw something in the workings of the market that the system as a whole had to repress. It may not provide any actionable program, and it may have led to some devastating applications - but Marx isn't the one to blame for those disasters.
 
Butler was writing at the tail end of this trend. I give her the benefit of the doubt. Furthermore, it's like any other dense metaphysical text; once you spend the necessary time with it, it makes sense.

Obviously I've not spent much (any) time with Butler, but the critiques of her positions - beyond her delivery - shows a writer who is either ignorant of some basics of reality or simply dishonest (with herself most importantly). Critical differences in historical social roles between men and women are of biological convenience and/or necessity, not mere social happenstance. If she is obtuse, we might possibly blame her privilege as a rich(relatively, in both contemporary and historical standards), educated, liberal-academic following the Cultural Revolution, Jewish-American woman. Nietzsche said something along the lines of a philosophy saying more about the philosopher than anything else. I think there is a significant amount of merit to this.

Edit: I want to clarify and embolden this critique. The "critiques" of Marx and everyone that came after him in both the big and little M fashion were made possible by the very processes that they critiqued - admittance of which is something that as far as I am aware of is completely absent in those critiques. It suddenly strikes me as almost impossibly ironic that a thread of philosophy which claims the label of "historicism" has absolutely no historically contextual awareness.

Anyone can manipulate anything for rhetorical/ideological purposes. Any text, any philosophy, can become fodder for depraved, reprehensible activities. Marx's writings never endorsed mass killings or executions. It makes no sense, in my opinion, to say that his work is responsible for the atrocities of the Soviet Union, or the plight of any other communist country.

Marx was incredibly intelligent, not a charlatan at all. There's no doubt in my mind that he saw something in the workings of the market that the system as a whole had to repress. It may not provide any actionable program, and it may have led to some devastating applications - but Marx isn't the one to blame for those disasters.

It's apparent Marx was smart. I wouldn't call him brilliant: he merely traced out the logic of the labor theory of value, and even forgot the value of the labor of ownership and management. The danger in Marx's work was this (incorrect) depiction of the mechanisms of prosperity as nothing but thievery and depredation (obviously some of this goes on, but it isn't a systemic issue). In short: total oppression. While you and I might be able to read these almost dryly delivered polemics against capitalism with a more critical eye, the notion is ripe for the sort of actions/rhetoric taken by basically every communist regime in history. This is a far cry from the manipulation, for example, of Nietzsche's texts to support Nazism. The former requires only some basic inductive steps from the underlying premises of the author (and those not entirely his own) and the other requires an extremely limited selection pulled out of context from the entire corpus.
 
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Obviously I've not spent much (any) time with Butler, but the critiques of her positions - beyond her delivery - shows a writer who is either ignorant of some basics of reality or simply dishonest (with herself most importantly). Critical differences in historical social roles between men and women are of biological convenience and/or necessity, not mere social happenstance. If she is obtuse, we might possibly blame her privilege as a rich(relatively, in both contemporary and historical standards), educated, liberal-academic following the Cultural Revolution, Jewish-American woman. Nietzsche said something along the lines of a philosophy saying more about the philosopher than anything else. I think there is a significant amount of merit to this.

Absolutely agree with the Nietzsche quote. But again, if we allow that here, then we also have to say that Kant's philosophy didn't produce a model for human consciousness/subjectivity, but a model for white, European, male subjectivity. That doesn't mean there's nothing valuable there.

...admittance of which is something that as far as I am aware of is completely absent in those critiques.

It isn't though. :cool: This is what made postwar theory, in my personal opinion, more perceptive than the affirmationist philosophies that preceded it. It exhibited an awareness that its own grounds come under assault. Derrida insinuated this in 1966 when he gave his talk, "Structure, Sign, and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences." Foucault has acknowledged it in The Order of Things, published that same year. More recently, Cary Wolfe summed it up perfectly in his book on postmodern theory:

Wolfe said:
On one side, then, we find critics of diverse political stripe who lament that the breakdown of the realist philosophical world worldview means a loss of reference and meaning that undermines the ethical and political promises of Enlightenment modernity. Defenders of the realist tradition hold, to put it schematically, that interpretive validity depends on the representational adequation — the faithful mirroring, as Richard Rorty has argued— of the objective meaning of the text, the event, or the social phenomenon. From this perspective, if objectivity or something very much like it is not possible, then we are automatically driven back upon relativism and even nihilism. On the other side, we find proponents of postmodernism such as Lyotard, Rorty, and Foucault who celebrate this very loss of representational authority as a liberation of the social and cultural field from what Jacques Derrida has famously called “logocentrism,” a liberation that returns interpretive activity to the materiality, historicity, and social embeddedness of its processes and practices of production. To which critics of postmodernism respond in turn that these theorists cannot claim that such a breakdown of realism has taken place without engaging in a self-refuting paradox; as one recent study puts it, “How does one rule out categorical theories in principle without getting categorical? How does one universalize about theory’s inability to universalize?”

Wolfe suggests that Derrida is intensely aware of this paradox. Derrida has always said that deconstruction isn't a philosophy, and that his methods of practice aren't categories or concepts. They resist such manifestation because as soon as they become concepts they deconstruct themselves.

So it isn't that theory is unaware, as you argue. It's that such theory is very aware that it has no ground, and thereby no stable premise from which to argue. Obviously these theorists have to fall back on something, especially when engaging in spoken dialogue with their peers, which is why their critics often rush to attack them based on the contradictory nature of individual statements or quotes. That's insufficient, however, because the argument has to do with the very nature of contradiction and paradox.

Contemporary academia in the humanities is still steeped in this tradition, but that's because it's still so recent. It's actively working its way out of it, like any committed discipline does, and it's making headway.

It's apparent Marx was smart. I wouldn't call him brilliant: he merely traced out the logic of the labor theory of value, and even forgot the value of the labor of ownership and management. The danger in Marx's work was this (incorrect) depiction of the mechanisms of prosperity as nothing but thievery and depredation (obviously some of this goes on, but it isn't a systemic issue). In short: total oppression. While you and I might be able to read these almost dryly delivered polemics against capitalism with a more critical eye, the notion is ripe for the sort of actions/rhetoric taken by basically every communist regime in history. This is a far cry from the manipulation, for example, of Nietzsche's texts to support Nazism. The former requires only some basic inductive steps from the underlying premises of the author (and those not entirely his own) and the other requires an extremely limited selection pulled out of context from the entire corpus.

Well, we've had this argument before. :heh: Your perspective on Marx is primarily economic, which is also how he's commonly dismissed by economists in general. I'm referring to what he saw operating within what I'll call (following Jameson) the political unconscious of market relations. These aren't economic principles - they're social ones, ideological ones. The perceptions are insightful and accurate, in my opinion. Their translation back into a new system of social relations (i.e. communism) might not be.
 
I appreciate the in depth reply. On a work break so I can't quote easily, but I want to clarify what I meant about the lack of awareness. I did not mean that they didn't understand that their critiques undermined themselves(you've addressed those concerns before). What I mean is that were the supposed social and economic conditions that marxist social/economics philosopher describe actually exist, they wouldn't allow such criticisms, particularly from such a dependent class. It is precisely the broadly available and dispersed riches, the tolerance, lack of sexism, etc, which allows such marginal complaints to arise. Respected criticism of oppression etc can only arise past its descriptive point(in time) of accuracy.

Yeah Kant has issues, but then he's possibly the posterchild for the out of touch academic: never traveling etc.

I think Marx was right that there is a tension between buyer and seller (particularly as it relates to the buyers and sellers of labor), and that sociological/cultural/ideological factors can tilt the supply/demand equation in favor of the buyers of labor. Economists like to treat economics in value free terms, which is the same thing as saying "in theory". In praxis, everything is colored by culture. But that doesn't change how the mechanisms themselves work so much as how they are used.
 
I appreciate the in depth reply. On a work break so I can't quote easily, but I want to clarify what I meant about the lack of awareness. I did not mean that they didn't understand that their critiques undermined themselves(you've addressed those concerns before). What I mean is that were the supposed social and economic conditions that marxist social/economics philosopher describe actually exist, they wouldn't allow such criticisms, particularly from such a dependent class. It is precisely the broadly available and dispersed riches, the tolerance, lack of sexism, etc, which allows such marginal complaints to arise. Respected criticism of oppression etc can only arise past its descriptive point(in time) of accuracy.

This is a fascinating perspective, and I'm not sure I agree with it... :heh:

So you're basically suggesting that these critiques are historically possible only because the conditions they target have already ceased to be? And if you can elaborate on that (or correct it), feel free.
 
This is a fascinating perspective, and I'm not sure I agree with it... :heh:

So you're basically suggesting that these critiques are historically possible only because the conditions they target have already ceased to be? And if you can elaborate on that (or correct it), feel free.

More or less. I'm not saying that social discrimination or "class depredation", or whatever other nasty terms one can think of don't exist at all at the point that complaints of "oppression" arise, but that they have significantly receded at that point and trending out to the point where they only lay hold in certain individuals or "pockets", not in a broadly systemic fashion. Especially concerning economic related complaints, whether related to labor or "home economics", the time required to both complain and procure and appreciate such complaining is made available only by the overall removal of the historical pains of day to day living.

Whether we are speaking of Jews in the camps, slaves in the Colosseum, or the nameless nomads across the eons, none of these had the moment to spare from finding food and shelter, or escaping death.
 
I'm having a hard time responding to this because while it's a provocative claim, ultimately I don't think it's accurate. First of all, critiques of social processes don't need to come from the purported victims. They can come from "privileged" sectors. So the argument that the victims didn't have time to compose compelling critiques is invalidated, for me.

Furthermore, I think there's way more to these critiques than "x is oppressed." It may be that in some cases (say, for instance, Franz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth) the forces at work may have lessened, but that doesn't mean they've been properly understood. And in my opinion, that's as important. When Butler published Gender Trouble, no one doubted that gender issues were already the topic of political debate - but that doesn't mean gender was a widely understood concept. I still believe it's widely misunderstood today, even by many in the transgender community.
 
I'm having a hard time responding to this because while it's a provocative claim, ultimately I don't think it's accurate. First of all, critiques of social processes don't need to come from the purported victims. They can come from "privileged" sectors. So the argument that the victims didn't have time to compose compelling critiques is invalidated, for me.

That misses the point. Regardless of the source of a critique, whether it be from an oppressed group or not, it simply will not arise/be allowed, much less be given any credence during the part of history, in the place, in which such oppression in is firmly entrenched. This also does not in anyway assume that particular critiques are necessarily legitimate even after the case, but merely that if there is any truth, the critique is late.

A significant problem regarding "representation/advocacy" of the allegedly oppressed by someone completely outside of the sphere of the oppressed is that such an advocate will be presented with the difficulty of having not only an accurate historical frame of reference of specific values and challenges for the allegedly oppressed, but also issues any change will bring about. It may be that the specific alleviation an outsider advocate may champion is no real issue for the target group, despite admitted oppression in some form, and/or that the alleviation may cause more problems than it purports to fix, if it even fixes anything. This problem is less likely when the advocacy is internal rather than external. However, as I said already in bringing this up, the liklihood of allowance of such critique/advocacy is unlikely until the system has already made room for it (regardless).

Furthermore, I think there's way more to these critiques than "x is oppressed." It may be that in some cases (say, for instance, Franz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth) the forces at work may have lessened, but that doesn't mean they've been properly understood. And in my opinion, that's as important. When Butler published Gender Trouble, no one doubted that gender issues were already the topic of political debate - but that doesn't mean gender was a widely understood concept. I still believe it's widely misunderstood today, even by many in the transgender community.

Butler et al's perspectives of social aspects are called into question by their marginal status within social relations. Not only does Butler have little ground in assessing male behavior in general, she has little ground for assessing the experience of heteronormative woman as well. It is no surprise to me that Butler's orientation to social interaction is described in terms of "acting", since to "fit in" as a marginal member of society would require very conscious acting. While this may have some if not much descriptive power regarding the perspective of the margins of society, I wouldn't expect much beyond that. The motivation at the margins is to claim to not be marginal. One can do this in two ways: Either claim one is not at the margins, or claim that everything marginal - which is the angle of attack from Butler et al.
 
Wait, so are you guys arguing about representation of an "oppressed" group?

If this is what you are talking about then I would think the least likely person to be able to represent the group would be one in it. In my opinion the most effective would have to be an outsider considering the emotional effects of being inside the group. We can see this in victims of gun violence, who are now (a lot of them at least) totally averse to guns and their use, their opinion is inherently flawed and useless because they are clouded emotionally. If we are considering this ordeal with the trans community this should run around a similar idea, when you are faced with the opportunity to converse with a trans person many of them are normal people but have underlying mental issues, some aren't that bad and others are worse. When you have something that could be considered very important to a person and try and talk to them about it, they will be bombarded by thoughts of betrayal and other threatening ideas, so this will evoke a very passionate response and most people will crumble under their own pressure and get defensive. Which means any further talk is useless.

Re reading over the posts this now makes more sense to me. I feel that most people through out the history of the world all go through very similar pains and feelings but they have different themes. So the people who went through the depression may have a better over all view on their particular situation then say a person who went through the great recession in 2008 but both could have experienced very similar pain of losing house and family etc.

Also I have a question that maybe someone more politically, economically aware could answer, my teacher told me that he guessed we are going to go through another huge depression in the next few years, this has me very worried considering I am 16 years old and about to become a legal adult and have to support myself in only a few years. Does anyone have any idea on this?
 
I'd say the odds are pretty high of another 70sish stagflation at a minimum. As far as gun violence goes, many victims of gun violence are in or involved with gangs, and I've seen no interest from gangs in giving up the thug life. Victims of gun violence also want to punish non-criminals for criminal acts. This is ignorant.
 
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Sorry I did not clarify this well, I was more concerned with victims of random attacks... yes this is highly unlikely in comparison, this is my fault, bad example lol


So is this economic event something I should be very concerned with?
 
At a minimum the odds are against your quality of life being any better than your parents when it comes to things like housing, retirement, etc. Of course everything is contingent on your ability, career field, happenstance, etc. Plus the market keeps driving down the cost of tech - which also displaces labor. We live in interesting times. If you have the head for coding or maths, thatd be the route to go.
 
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Not a big math guy, thinking of psychiatry or psychology, both if thats a thing

8 years of college plus an internship year to be a psychologist. An additional 4 in med school to be a psychiatrist plus any further internships. That's a lot of tuition and fees (debt) unless you happen to be pretty damn good (scholarships/fellowships/etc) and/or poor (grants). I'm stopping with psychologist and I'm avoiding most tuition and fees between military benefits and being poor and being damn good.
 
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