Dan, do you question existence?

Stilgar said:
As I understand it, there is no actual proof that Jesus ever existed. I've read several articles/essays on the subject. It's an interesting thought...
Click to expand...

I never said Jesus didn't exist,quite the opposite I think he did exist but I doubt the whole ressurection thingy.
I have a close friend who was constantly being haunted by his grandfather who died a few years back.and nothing helped the poor guy,not a psychologist,not a psychiatrist,not a hypnotherapist.untill his parents sent him to a powerful medium who noticed immedietly the ghost of the grandfather hovering above his head.she forced the grandfather to leave and he hasn't been bothered by him ever since.
My point here is that the grandfather has ressurected in a way but we don't call him God.

as for killing the thread...I think I just gave it CPR
 
another small thing...
about me being the massiah...It could be true but from the description in of the massiah in the old testament.I don't fit.
It says there that the massiah will come riding on a white donkey and will be the descendent of King David...as for that some people proved Jesus was the descendent of David.King David was from the JUDEA Tribe of Israel which had a land around the area of Jerusalem.I on the other hand am a Descendent of the Priests who did holy work in the temple and had no land.All the priests were from the LEVY tribe so that kinda falls out.I do have a white ass though but I don't think that's what they meant
 
paradoxile said:
I do have a white ass though but I don't think that's what they meant
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:lol:
I definitely think there's evidence supporting religion, but as Stilgar said, no proof. If there were proof, we wouldn't have big debates about it or need something called faith ;)
 
Kenneth R. said:
:lol:
I definitely think there's evidence supporting religion, but as Stilgar said, no proof. If there were proof, we wouldn't have big debates about it or need something called faith ;)
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People's can't live without faith...whether it's believing in themselves or some eternal omnipotent entity/s or even drugs.Even when someone believes in absolutely nothing, he actually believes in the fact that he believes in nothing.It's kind of a paradox thingy but it's not.
When you don't believe in anything you don't believe in your own existance so what's the point of living.just kill myself and it won't change a thing.
As oposed to religion...people can deffintely live without religion and quite a happy life too.
 
While I'm at it...how about settling the whole Creation Vs. Evolution thingy once and for all...
According to the Old testament the World exists only 5766 years,now the whole Idea is pretty preposterous since we have archiological evidence for life on earth millions of years earlier.The Kabbalah(the theory of the hidden from the eye) explains :"The world" means the world as we know it today,so it either means that the human has evolved to something intelligent which distincts it from other animals and apes in particualar or possibly the count from the day the human being has found purpose in life.The Kabbalah also refers to the creating of previous worlds and exactly how many years each world would exist...(just for general knowledge "this" current world will be destroyed after 6000 years of existance which means the world will be destroyed in 234 years) as I see it each one of those "creations" is just another step in the evolution,only that people in those times didn't have the technology nor the understanding of what Chrales Darwin was talking about so it was described in terms people back then could understand.
We also see in the first few chapters in Genesis contredictory stories about creation: the first about the creating of the world in six days when on the sixth day created man(kind) and on the seventh day rested from all the hard work etc etc. then there's the story of Adam and Eve about first creating Adam then creating animals to keep him company and only then put Adam to sleep, taken one his ribs and creating Eve out of that Rib and the whole story of the Garden of Eden with the snake and the forbidden fruit(not really an apple)...so why the hell are two contradictory stories of creation in the old testament? The old testament like the new testament is a collection of stories put together by editors who lived in a later period, then the christians devided it into chapters and verses. According to historions there are ancient Babylonian sources that describe similar stories of creation.Now the bible is a book whose sole purpose is to educate to the love and fear of god and to good relations amongst men. Or is it? There is also according to certain sources, a code hidden in the old testament describing pretty much everything that ever happened and will happen in "this world"...Very advanced Kabbalists have a way of predicting the future using the bible.There were evidence found of the extinction of the Kennedies-the assasination of JFK the Robert Kennedy and then the plane crash of JFK Jr.'s family.It has descriptions of Hitler,Bin Laden,Bush,Putin,Princess Diana etc. etc.
It's forbidden for Kabbalists to reveal what the future holds...something about having the chain of events all fucked up eventually causing caos in the universe.
There was a certain mathematician who cracked the code of the Bible using a computer and started asking the bible some questions and got really interesting answer.When he asked "who is God?" he got the answer,"You have no business knowing!!" He got scared as hell and folded the project.
Now what does all of this mean?As I see it, Our ancestors who edited the bible knew the code...the were much more spiritual and they got the whole evolution thing figured out.
Let's put evolution in a mathematical analogy:
Let's say the world is a differential equation with an endless number of solutions(representing events happening) but as any differential equation you need as much starting points as solutions(in this case an infinite number)
Our world is driven by causality therefore one event cuses the next one
so the right analogy is a recursive equation which means that the current solution depends on the previous one and we have one starting point instead of infinity.once we know that starting point we can run the process back and know just about anything we want in any point in time.
which brings me to another issue called the illusion of choice.according to the recursive equation theory the events of the past affect the events of the present without any restrictions therefore by the actions of the past you can also predict what a certain person thinks(which is just electrical currents in the brain when we think about it) and his actions.so basicly we have free choice but It's well known what our choices will be.(as long as we find out the starting point in the equation).As they said in the matrix movie:"you can't see beyond choices you don't understand" well we don't understand any of the choices because we don't have a starting point to understand what caused them therefore as for seeing the future we see dick!!!
Now let's return to that starting point.The starting point according to religion is GOD and according to scientists is the big bang.this is where I happen to disagree with all of them.The big bang must have been caused by something and as I see it God is the eternal which not controls the events at the moment but set things into motion and taken into consideration the fact that people will pray and some of their prayers will be answered.
If we want to dig deeper we'll ask:what is god then?
According to some advanced astro physicists(Steven Hawking among them) the universe fluxuates rather than standin still.It expands implodes into itself over and over again since forever and for all eternity only over some dimention which is not time as time bends togeth with the universe as time and matter are co-dependent(Einstein theory of reativity E=mc^2 ).

Yeah yeah I know...I'm totally fucked up so shoot me!
 
:lol: good try but i don't think it will ever be settled in anyone's lifetime.

how can you disprove the supernatural with laws regarding natural order? it's like arguing morality with logic. some things are just on different planes, and the only "proof" of anything in this case must lie within the same realm.

in other words, you can't use logic to disprove the existance of something like God. If God exists, he is supernatural, not subject to laws of physics etc. If he does not exist, then you have nothing to disprove. See the problem? :D

edit: also I think "Creation" and "Evolution" are not at odds--- both can exist as one describes the beginning and another the progress of change. Similarly in regards to creation, who can say what a "day" is to an immortal being? Perhaps to something like a god, a "day" is an eon. We will never know...
 
I am not trying to disprove God's existance...I believe in God, why would I do that? I am trying to understand at least one small aspect of the concept called God.Obviously on other realms things work differently(if other realms exist at all) but who's to say that the laws aren't the same,we don't know and what I wrote here is just an analogy in simple human terms of what could possibly be an explanation.
besides,a certain book(Book of Zohar,If I remember correctly) describes the realm of God in great detail,though most people who read the Book of Zohar went crazy.
I haven't even toutched the whole concept of ressurection of the dead,the eternity of the soul,reincarnations,or even what truely the future holds.

Great Rabbis said "you have no business studying Kaballah if don't know the Torah completely".I projected that on to my study and that's what I'm trying to do...trying to understand the wheels of motion of this world and whenever unexplained things happen people usually say it's god's doing when they can't find logical explanation when in fact all creation including logic and morallity are god's doing.
All I know is that where and when knowledge ends...faith begins.
 
paradoxile said:
People's can't live without faith...whether it's believing in themselves or some eternal omnipotent entity/s or even drugs.Even when someone believes in absolutely nothing, he actually believes in the fact that he believes in nothing.It's kind of a paradox thingy but it's not.
When you don't believe in anything you don't believe in your own existance so what's the point of living.just kill myself and it won't change a thing.
As oposed to religion...people can deffintely live without religion and quite a happy life too.
Click to expand...

I live without faith just fine. Not everyone derives their values from their religious beliefs, because not everyone has religious beliefs. I certainly don't.

I don't even like being called an atheist. Contrary to what you're saying, the onus for believing is on believers. Why am I distinct, and get a distinct tag, for not playing make-believe and claiming there are invisible, supernatural forces at work in the world? The assumption that people "need" faith is incorrect. We impose it on others by raising them with religion, or claiming their cultural values are derived from it (in such a way that it leads automatically to an identification with a particular religion).

And there is a distinction between religion, and say, drugs. You can't just say that everything we rely on to get through our days is the same, because it doesn't do justice to the peculiarity and differences between the varying crutches everyone relies on in their lives. Religion has particular manifestations and pathologies. Religious fanatics may resemble crackheads, but that doesn't make them drug addicts.
 
Kenneth R. said:
:lol: good try but i don't think it will ever be settled in anyone's lifetime.

how can you disprove the supernatural with laws regarding natural order? it's like arguing morality with logic. some things are just on different planes, and the only "proof" of anything in this case must lie within the same realm.

in other words, you can't use logic to disprove the existance of something like God. If God exists, he is supernatural, not subject to laws of physics etc. If he does not exist, then you have nothing to disprove. See the problem? :D

edit: also I think "Creation" and "Evolution" are not at odds--- both can exist as one describes the beginning and another the progress of change. Similarly in regards to creation, who can say what a "day" is to an immortal being? Perhaps to something like a god, a "day" is an eon. We will never know...
Click to expand...

No. By the scientific method, something that cannot be tested does not work / exist. God does not exist unless proven so is how it works in a scientific argument. Does the Lochness monster exist? The tooth fairy? You say that they don't exist not because they have been proven NOT to exist, but because their existence is not proven. If you tell me there's a bear outside my door, and I look out, and there isn't one, I'm not going to believe you it was there. If for 6000 years you keep telling me there's a bear outside my door, and in 6000 years I never see a bear, then basically the burden is all on you to prove the bear exists.

I'm not asserting god does / does not exist (my apathy towards religious discussion is pretty big), but that scientifically, the argument is simple since something that cannot be tested is simply assumed to not exist.
 
Naglfar said:
the argument is simple since something that cannot be tested is simply assumed to not exist.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say that...

Certainly if it cannot be tested or observed, it cannot be proved scientifically. But some things fall into this category and certainly do exist. Love I think is a good example, although some will try and assert that it is the product of chemical functions and nothing more, but I think that doesn't quite adequately describe it. Science is, after all, a method, and not a solution. It's just the most widely accepted and in most cases the best method for finding solutions to the endless stream of questions we think up
 
Naglfar said:
I live without faith just fine. Not everyone derives their values from their religious beliefs, because not everyone has religious beliefs. I certainly don't.

I don't even like being called an atheist. Contrary to what you're saying, the onus for believing is on believers. Why am I distinct, and get a distinct tag, for not playing make-believe and claiming there are invisible, supernatural forces at work in the world? The assumption that people "need" faith is incorrect. We impose it on others by raising them with religion, or claiming their cultural values are derived from it (in such a way that it leads automatically to an identification with a particular religion).

And there is a distinction between religion, and say, drugs. You can't just say that everything we rely on to get through our days is the same, because it doesn't do justice to the peculiarity and differences between the varying crutches everyone relies on in their lives. Religion has particular manifestations and pathologies. Religious fanatics may resemble crackheads, but that doesn't make them drug addicts.
Click to expand...

You probably didn't understand me correctly.when I use the word faith I by no means talking about anything resembling religion.I should have just said
belief. see when you believe in god,you believe in god.when you believe in yourself youbelieve in yourself,when you belive no one and beliieve in nothing you still believe in the fact that you bellieve in nothing,you can believ in love and other things.
when someone is lying to you, you can believe him or not believe him there's no other way...see my point now
what I said about religion and drugs and getting by each day,they are not the same...they are of no importence in the great scheem of things.
the belief is the same thing everywhere.
when you strip a man of his knowledge completely it's only belief that is left considering the fact that without knowledge the man doesn't know about god.
 
God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I'll say it again
God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles
I just believe in me...and thats reality
(Lennon)

 
Why? There's no religious ranting anymore...
Besides there's mutual respect and understanding between the participants...
I don't see the problem
 
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