Does "anyone" like Reroute?

[Arch]

If everything's already been discussed, Haven, R2R, etc, what's left to discuss? Considering there are no musicians here to give me their advice or rantings, what could you possibly contribute to me?

I don't know who Warwick is.

What could I possibly contribute to you? A different view, from outside your ass.

Standing on the shoulders or being redundant? It's the same principle as even though there are R2R posts here, I'm just adding another. Either there's room for redundancy, or there's not.

Redundancy is if DT does everything just like Iron Maiden. Standing on the shoulders of giants is DT taking different elements from music and bands, including Iron Maiden.

I stop posting to this thread, you stop posting to this thread. Because the argument would cease and, secondly, as you said, there are so many R2R threads here, why continue to beat a dead horse in this one? I am the lifeblood of this thread. My thread.

Wait! It's "your thread"... you "nurtured it" like you said before, and it's replying back to me. Why would you want to stop posting to this thread? I thought you want to defend your thoughts and opinions? You now changed your mind or is this another self-contradiction? You'll gonna let this thread of "your's" to die?!?

This forum is the private property of Ultimate Metal. Like a landlord, they can stop anyone from posting (banning). And, like a club owner, I'm "renting" this space from them. As long as I rent it, it's my space, and you patronize it.

How are you "renting" this space, may I ask? May I see your contract you signed with Mark? How much "rent" do you pay Mark/UM?
You sound like a bitter wife that wants half of what the husband makes after the divorce.

A community does have rules, if you don't know this already. A community park can close if people used it to sell drugs, for example.

I obey Mark's, Rahvin's, and Hedon's rules for this forum, not your's. Respect that.

 

[Arch]

You're putting an inordinate amount of time and effort into this.

Gotta feed you more alcohol to see you make a jackass of yourself, right?

Tony Iommi may have originated metal, but he's hardly a decent guitarist, and the NWOBHM led by the likes of Judas Priest put a technical edge on music that was rapidly getting boring by 1980.

What isn't boring, Aaron?
Technical wankery skills get boring. After hearing Django play, his stuff is very impressive (for someone that plays with 2 fingers) but gets boring too. DT gets boring. I get bored with music too. Right now, I'm exploring post-rock like Godspeed! You Black Emperor and Mogwai. Post-rock isn't my certain cup of tea right now, but there's a lot of styles of music that'll keep me "unbored" instead of bitching about how boring Band XYZ is.

Why are technical musicians better than non-technical ones? They make non-technical ones obsolete. They can do everything the grunge-ites can, do it better, and surpass it.

Surpass it? In what way?
Grunge may be limited and can make itself obsolete. Obsolete is worse than non-obsolete music?!? Classical can be deemed "obsolete", but is it any better or worse than any other genre of music?

...

SOAD is annoying and quite unheavy. Same with RATM. Put in some double bass, some 16th note triplets, and some ostinatos over a sequence of changing tonics. All this stuff, as before said, is unoriginal and not new, but it makes the metal everyone loves...the 80's kind.

What's new and original, Aaron? It seems like every music and every band is somehow influenced by other music and other bands.

If Bullet with Butterfly Wings was the best heavy Corgan could churn out, maybe someone should introduce him to some Crowbar, for a fundamental lecture in heavy.

What's your deal with "heavy-ness" of a music? Corgan does what he damn pleases, you music Nazi!

Speaking of a whiny ass, even Sharon Osbourne shit on that little pipsqueak when she stopped being his manager, because he was so difficult to work with...and she puts up with her two kids! I remember some old issues of GW in his "lesson" column...same with that dipshit of Godsmack...I didnt learn anything I hadn't already learned...why waste paper on them when Friedman, Petrucci, Dimebag and Wylde can show you the same plus more? Or the contributing editors who transcribe the songs?

"Why waste paper on them?" Gee, I smell another crybaby rant from you, just like "People are giving Bono more recognition than Mother Teresa. I'm gonna cry me a river."

Why are competent musicians better? Because they eclipse incompetent ones. If you try your very best and play like Kurt Cobain, fine. If you thumb your nose at it...you deserve the limitations of your craft.

Some people are just plain happy with what they can compose and play. Should I look down upon people who barely know how to use a computer? Should I bitch, moan, and complain that you barely know how to reply to people's postings. You know, I have to re-editing your reponses, and have to weave in-and-out to put in my replies.

 

[Inflames626]

What could I possibly contribute to you? A different view, from outside your ass.

Flames:
Nothing, so give up the fucking argument.


Redundancy is if DT does everything just like Iron Maiden. Standing on the shoulders of giants is DT taking different elements from music and bands, including Iron Maiden.

Reply:
Name me something DT DOES do that differs from Maiden or other death metal. I'd like to see a unique contribution. They've gone no place Kreator, Death, Carcass and Coroner haven't gone before them, as much as I love them, especially how Anders plays the drums.

Wait! It's "your thread"... you "nurtured it" like you said before, and it's replying back to me. Why would you want to stop posting to this thread? I thought you want to defend your thoughts and opinions? You now changed your mind or is this another self-contradiction? You'll gonna let this thread of "your's" to die?!?

Reply:
Because I've proven my point and am losing interest in the argument.
Preserving the thread means nothing to me if you're the only thing in it.

How are you "renting" this space, may I ask? May I see your contract you signed with Mark? How much "rent" do you pay Mark/UM?
You sound like a bitter wife that wants half of what the husband makes after the divorce.

Reply:
Rent was the operative word to create the analogy. I am not literally renting, but I am using this space, as is granted per registration. Being able to log in is proof of the "rent", or accepting the terms of service of fair usage. If I couldn't log on, I wouldn't be "renting".

A community does have rules, if you don't know this already. A community park can close if people used it to sell drugs, for example.

So they can ban me if they like. It will be no serious loss to me. And I can kick you from my thread by ignoring you, which, although it will not remove you from the thread, will remove you indefinitely from trying my patience. Which is the same to me, as you're seriously not proving anything past this point other than bitching and whining because you're trying to validate non-technicality and striving for the best...which is elitism, technicality, objectivity, what have you. If you're not doing your best to be your best, then why draw breath?

I obey Mark's, Rahvin's, and Hedon's rules for this forum, not your's. Respect that.

Nope.

Why should I? You're just plain wrong. I don't think your argument holds water. Respect that. Social harmony lies in reciprocity. And because you're not going to concede this argument, if you don't contribute anything interesting here within a very finite amount of time, I will ignore you and continue interesting conversations with those that are actually a pleasure to converse with.

Or perhaps go back to the harmony central boards where people have things to say. Everyone bitches here about certain such and such albums already having been discussed...and a very "been there done that" attitude. If that's so, why continue to come? What can people who aren't musicians say other than "I like band X." "I like it too." "Ever heard of band Y?" Whereas a musician can practically apply what he learns from other musicians, and can STILL operate as a fan.

In short, if you can't show me a way to get sound X out of equipment Y, or you don't share ideas with me and we create interesting music together, I'm not interested in talking. Why? What can be said other than "I agree" or "I disagree." There's nothing to do once that's been established. Musicality has "Let me go try your idea and get back to you." It evolves. Talking about DT, until they put out another record, doesn't evolve. Talking about Soundgarden won't evolve. Talking about AIC won't evolve. Nothing new is happening in these departments.

I've already shown you that a technical musician can do everything a
grunger can't, and no bullshit argument, even regarding my lack of technical ability, can make up for that. Some musicians can do everything I can and more, and there's no bullshit excuse for me playing music, no "heart", no "feeling", no bullshit apologist explanation that somehow justifies what I can bring to the table and they can't.

I can contribute nothing new, and the only justification for my even playing is to try to reach their level eventually, and to go from there.

I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever even seen a 286...

 

[Salamurhaaja]

Oh, look, I know how to play music, I must know a
lot more than you, therefor my opinion is much
more valuable waah waah waah

If you think that, why the fuck you bother coming
here in the first place, you know most people here
don't play anything and can still know _a lot_ more
than you about music, seeing as how you are with
music, I wouldn't be surprised.

Tell you what, get your head out of your ass and
remember to place it all in front of the shotgun, ok?




Funniest thread... ever!



oh look, how can I listen to this crap...
II
II
V

 

[Inflames626]

Oh, look, I know how to play music, I must know a
lot more than you, therefor my opinion is much
more valuable waah waah waah

If you think that, why the fuck you bother coming
here in the first place, you know most people here
don't play anything and can still know _a lot_ more
than you about music, seeing as how you are with
music, I wouldn't be surprised.

Tell you what, get your head out of your ass and
remember to place it all in front of the shotgun, ok?




Funniest thread... ever!



oh look, how can I listen to this crap...
II
II
V

You've yet to say anything intelligent. Do not post here again unless you've something to contribute. Once again, accusations without merit and evidence, coming from a person who is too much of a coward to even tell anything about himself to justify his views.

 

[Arch]

Nothing, so give up the fucking argument.

Nothing? It's nothing to you because you're stubborn.
Give up? Why? I like having discussions. I can't continue to play basketball on "your" court? Who are you? The moderator?
Look, this kind of thread isn't unique. However, you have the balls to tell people to stop discussing it. Why? Disagreement makes a lively conversation.


InFlames626 says: DT is boring and does everything like Iron Maiden.
Arch: I agree
User2: I agree
User3: Me too!
User4: Me three!


Now, what is there to discuss then, Aaron?

Name me something DT DOES do that differs from Maiden or other death metal. I'd like to see a unique contribution. They've gone no place Kreator, Death, Carcass and Coroner haven't gone before them, as much as I love them, especially how Anders plays the drums.

Give me a break, Aaron. DT and Iron Maiden sound very different. Like you asked, I'll name something different: Bruce doesn't growl.
DT DOES NOT equal Iron Maiden.

Because I've proven my point and am losing interest in the argument.
Preserving the thread means nothing to me if you're the only thing in it.

Oh wait, is this a contest to see who gets the last word because it's your thread?

Rent was the operative word to create the analogy. I am not literally renting, but I am using this space, as is granted per registration. Being able to log in is proof of the "rent", or accepting the terms of service of fair usage. If I couldn't log on, I wouldn't be "renting".

Rent requires pay. It boils down to, what are you paying to UM? Agreeing to a contract, logging on for free, using its space doesn't mean "rent". Dark Tranquillity is renting this piece of UM-Land and we're just using their parking lots for free. You're throwing in a wrong word, even for an analogy.

So they can ban me if they like. It will be no serious loss to me. And I can kick you from my thread by ignoring you, which, although it will not remove you from the thread, will remove you indefinitely from trying my patience.

The ONLY way to kick me out of your thread is by deleting the whole thread.
You don't have the authorative rights to EDIT or DELETE my post on this thread or any other threads for that matter unless you're a moderator for a forum here. Mark, Rahvin, and Hedon can kick (ban) me if it pleases them. And get it through your thick head.
If you were to leave UM, I can still post "Lalalalala", and it will be the latest post for the time being.

Which is the same to me, as you're seriously not proving anything past this point other than bitching and whining because you're trying to validate non-technicality and striving for the best...which is elitism, technicality, objectivity, what have you. If you're not doing your best to be your best, then why draw breath?

Que?

Arch: I obey Mark's, Rahvin's, and Hedon's rules for this forum, not your's. Respect that.

Flame: Nope.

Nope what?
Let me rephrase that:
I don't play by your rules, I play by the moderators' rules.

Why should I? You're just plain wrong. I don't think your argument holds water. Respect that. Social harmony lies in reciprocity. And because you're not going to concede this argument, if you don't contribute anything interesting here within a very finite amount of time, I will ignore you and continue interesting conversations with those that are actually a pleasure to converse with.

Who are you to say I'm not contributing anything interesting? There are other posters on this thread that agrees with me (and me agreeing with them), such as:
- Bono vs. Mother Teresa
- Childish ridicule of avatars
- "Ownage" of thread and forum
Their points and arguments about these are just as valid as mine.

If I'm not providing anything interesting, why are you still responding to me for the past what, 3-4 days? Would you respond to me if I posted: "qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm"?

Ignore me if you like, I can just as well (like you) engage in other threads and other forums and other issues.

Or perhaps go back to the harmony central boards where people have things to say. Everyone bitches here about certain such and such albums already having been discussed...and a very "been there done that" attitude. If that's so, why continue to come? What can people who aren't musicians say other than "I like band X." "I like it too." "Ever heard of band Y?" Whereas a musician can practically apply what he learns from other musicians, and can STILL operate as a fan.

Welcome to UltimateMetal.com!
People are entitled to their opinions here.


Love,
Arch

In short, if you can't show me a way to get sound X out of equipment Y, or you don't share ideas with me and we create interesting music together, I'm not interested in talking. Why? What can be said other than "I agree" or "I disagree." There's nothing to do once that's been established. Musicality has "Let me go try your idea and get back to you." It evolves. Talking about DT, until they put out another record, doesn't evolve. Talking about Soundgarden won't evolve. Talking about AIC won't evolve. Nothing new is happening in these departments.

No duh.

I've already shown you that a technical musician can do everything a
grunger can't, and no bullshit argument, even regarding my lack of technical ability, can make up for that. Some musicians can do everything I can and more, and there's no bullshit excuse for me playing music, no "heart", no "feeling", no bullshit apologist explanation that somehow justifies what I can bring to the table and they can't.

The word "better" misused a lot of times. A technical musician can play grunge if he or she likes. Perhaps, a grunge musician (who has proper training) can play technical. From what I heard, Fredrik Johansson that did the solos for "December Flower" is now in a Swedish rap group. If he's happy in that rap group, good for him!

Back to the word "better":
A technical musician can sell records "better" than a grunge, as well as a grunge musician can sell records "better" than a technical musician. Who gives a shit that a musician can shred? Sonny Bono can barely play anything on a piano, yet his song "I've got you babe" sells. Am I jealous script kiddies can make more money than I can? No. Some people can do certain specialized things that they love and I am happy for them. Why can't you? Why is there still complaints about it?

 

[Inflames626]

For me, musical ability is not the most important thing when I listen to music, but the ideas and stories, as well as interesting riffs (they need not be technical as long as they sound great) portrayed through the music. A good example of this is well, Doom I suppose. They may not be the amazing musicians who will have you dropping your mouth in awe, but [given you like the form of music of course] they are much more likely to strike a chord within you so passionate that it drives you to tears/agony/despair/rage/glee/etc. etc.

For me there are two major facetes of music: skill and emotion. I do my best to never let one dominate the other, though sometimes I will prefer a Malmsteen album with lackluster lyrics and a dry, dull feel, albeit sharp as an axe, fast, and utterly flawless. Or, I may want to listen to say, using the previous Doom genre as a base, My Dying Bride, who don't necessarilly use solos and flashy riffs and speed. However, the intention of Doom Metal is not to impress with technical prowess, but to successfully convey emotion upon the listener, which, for me, it does very well, using slow, melancholic or catastrophic riffs and gloomy voices to portray the inevitable oncoming 'doom.'

What one facete lacks, the other makes up for. You may be the finest musician in the world, but if you can't stir emotions you're nothing than a tool. You may be the most fluent and creative lyricist/songwriter of all time, but it you can't show some technicality, you're just a story teller. They go hand in hand, and when bands use one hand to wash the other, and vice versa, there is where the true majesty lies. That is what I personally seek in music.

That is true. But for Malmsteen to be so "emotionless", you feel emotion from the technicality, you feel emotion from the sheer perfection of it all. His ability to change keys and modes and such is like a painter's brush, dipping into different colors and blending them over one another.

In my opinion, you must have emotion before you can become a technical musician, because if you cannot feel emotion, you never know how to express yourself in the music. So many things are similar...Dorian, Phrygian, and natural minor for example. Dorian is minor with a natural six, and Phrygian minor with a flattened 2, so that while each is minor, there are nuances...

The ability to change modes, keys, timings, meters, tempos...those are all changes of emotion. If a person couldn't feel emotion through sound, they wouldn't be a musician, just like a blind person probably wouldn't paint.

I've heard Yngwie live, and I've heard mistakes, variances in tone, dead fretting, etc., especially on acoustic. He can be rather sloppy at times, just because he plays so quickly. Keep in mind technical isnt a synonym for speed, but merely your competency in using the entire musical alphabet.

However, if we are talking about emotion, other things come into play. Capturing the proper performance in the studio is one...having the proper tools, tone, etc. Most people love old Van Halen because of the tone, yet without Eddie + old Marshalls + the technology of the time, you wouldn't have the "emotion" or brown sound as he likes to call it. I personally don't think he'll ever sound as good as the old red and white Kramer days again, but here's to hoping.

Look at technicality in music as your mastery of your native language. Why should you give someone credit who has a small vocabulary over someone who can recite poetry in it? The poetry can be simple, or he can be clever, technical, and nuanced. All I'm saying is...

If one is given the resources, there is no good reason why they shouldn't constantly seek to improve their musical skill. There's no excuse for not doing it, as someone who can play three chords has nothing over John Petrucci.

I disagree about the emotion thing though to this extent...for the Helloween I'm familiar with, which is primarily Keeper of the Seven Keys...take away the technical ability and there isn't much there. The emotion is convveyed through the technique. People forget that metal became metal because people were pissed off enough to play faster and cleaner than anyone before them...the technique was a PRODUCT of the emotion.

Technique doesn't come without emotion. If it did, no one would sit there and play arpeggios for hours unless it meant something to them to be fast and flawless. That's why most people quit...it's too hard, and their emotion isn't strong enough to overcome the hours and hours of patience needed to develop skills.

 

[Arch]

For me, musical ability is not the most important thing when I listen to music, but the ideas and stories, as well as interesting riffs (they need not be technical as long as they sound great) portrayed through the music. A good example of this is well, Doom I suppose. They may not be the amazing musicians who will have you dropping your mouth in awe, but [given you like the form of music of course] they are much more likely to strike a chord within you so passionate that it drives you to tears/agony/despair/rage/glee/etc. etc.

For me there are two major facetes of music: skill and emotion. I do my best to never let one dominate the other, though sometimes I will prefer a Malmsteen album with lackluster lyrics and a dry, dull feel, albeit sharp as an axe, fast, and utterly flawless. Or, I may want to listen to say, using the previous Doom genre as a base, My Dying Bride, who don't necessarilly use solos and flashy riffs and speed. However, the intention of Doom Metal is not to impress with technical prowess, but to successfully convey emotion upon the listener, which, for me, it does very well, using slow, melancholic or catastrophic riffs and gloomy voices to portray the inevitable oncoming 'doom.'

What one facete lacks, the other makes up for. You may be the finest musician in the world, but if you can't stir emotions you're nothing than a tool. You may be the most fluent and creative lyricist/songwriter of all time, but it you can't show some technicality, you're just a story teller. They go hand in hand, and when bands use one hand to wash the other, and vice versa, there is where the true majesty lies. That is what I personally seek in music.

Well said!

 

[Villain]

About thread-ownership: This forum has seen hundreds of threads "hijacked" to completely different directions from what it's originator wished. There has been numerous threads that have existed long since their originator abandoned them. If I and Salamurhaaja were to start talking about industrial music / anime movies / differences between Finnish and Swedish beer / whatever and posted 500 posts in this thread, would the "ownership" of the thread somehow "change" from Inflames626 to us? No. Because this thread has from the beginning on been owned by everyone posting here - being it just mindless babble or well-argumented opinions. This "thread" is not rented by anyone, this is more like a single table in a big pub - if you are the first to sit there, it is still not more yours than someone else's; especially as you cannot force anyone away from "your" table (except by asking them politely), and everyone who so wishes can come and sit there and start talking about whatever they want. Only if someone starts dancing on the table, the owner (Mark) or one of the bartenders (our moderators) can throw you out. Therefore, this is our thread - we (the community) are the customers of this pub and we can call this place our "home", including every damn table in it.

Also, as Inflames626 seems to be so keen on democracy: the majority of the people in this forum believe this is not anyone's thread but one "owned" by all of us. Don't you think this community should be democratic and it's values (if such a word can be wasted here) should be defined by the majority?

About technicality in music: My father has been a jazz-musician for 30+ years. He's studied a lot of music theory (not just jazz, but classical etc.) and has even taught some. He once said to me that the very best jazz was all very simple - something he couldn't play, despite all his technical ability (don't know why, he's explanations go over my head). Me? I think all jazz just plain sucks. I listen to the so-called "melodic death metal" and think it is the best music on earth - just because no other music has such an effect on me. My father hates most of it - about Death he said something like "a very boring song-structure" (duh!), whereas he liked a piece of an old Theatre of Tragedy song and said something like "this has many interesting nuances all around" (and it was a very simple song in my ears - although I know nothing of music). The end result? I know what is good music and what is not - that which sounds good to my ears is good and if someone disagrees, he/she has something wrong with his/her taste. Enjoying music is a very psychological thing - a human can be conditioned to love/hate certain sounds and their combinations if need be. If you have great sex with the same music playing in the background (being it death metal, grunge or Britney Spears), you start liking it (the music, that is) after a while. The same thing goes around if you get kicked to the balls every time a certain song plays.

Why then to discuss musical preferences, if personal tastes has no connection to "technicality" or "heaviness" or any other measurable and universally accepted subject? Well, to entertain each other. I find it very enjoyable (sometimes amusing even) to hear about other people's opinions about certain songs / bands / musical styles, especially when they do not try to be dead serious about the "rightness" of their opinion. And I do like to "argue" about the reasoning behind the said tastes someone has - especially with those, who have the most differing opinion about them. You, Inflames626, just happen to have a taste too similar to mine for me to find such a discussion enjoyable, for I too hold Haven and The Mind's I among the "least excellent" of DT's pieces of highly original art. And I don't know shit about any other band or album, really.

-Villain (now, finally going to bed)

 

[Inflames626]

Nothing? It's nothing to you because you're stubborn.
Give up? Why? I like having discussions. I can't continue to play basketball on "your" court? Who are you? The moderator?
Look, this kind of thread isn't unique. However, you have the balls to tell people to stop discussing it. Why? Disagreement makes a lively conversation.

Yes I have the balls. I can turn this on ignore any time I choose to and it does not matter what you say. Why? Because I don't see it anymore!


InFlames626 says: DT is boring and does everything like Iron Maiden.
Arch: I agree
User2: I agree
User3: Me too!
User4: Me three!

And they do, diatonic minor thirds, fourths, fifths, octaves...
I remember, when I was 18 or 19, and I thought Flames and DT were the shit...I brought in Jester, I brought in Whoracle, I brought in Projector, I brought in Colony, which was at that time the newest thing...

Jester's Dance was figured out in a few minutes. So was Sun Fired Blanks. Sun Fired Blanks is a lot like Wasted Years...different string, same pedal riff...Insanity's Crescendo...the ending of The Prophecy...Dreamlore and Punish, basically any galloping Maiden riff, up tempo'ed and detuned. The GIT instructors had basically taken my favorite bands and reduced them to childsplay.

Show me one DT song that isn't a faster Maiden. The rawr thing was done long before DT, also the detuning, and also the fast tempos. Maiden began to use keyboards in 86...a full 7 years before Skydancer...

Nothing new...

Now, what is there to discuss then, Aaron?

Nothing.



Give me a break, Aaron. DT and Iron Maiden sound very different. Like you asked, I'll name something different: Bruce doesn't growl.
DT DOES NOT equal Iron Maiden.

Bruce not growling isn't enough to make them different. Dave Mustaine doesn't sing like James Hetfield either, yet Mechanix and the Four Horsemen sound reallllllllllyyyyyyy similar...


Oh wait, is this a contest to see who gets the last word because it's your thread?

Damn right it's my thread.


Rent requires pay. It boils down to, what are you paying to UM? Agreeing to a contract, logging on for free, using its space doesn't mean "rent". Dark Tranquillity is renting this piece of UM-Land and we're just using their parking lots for free. You're throwing in a wrong word, even for an analogy.

I'm not paying UM because they didn't ask me for money for using its board. Agreeing to the terms of use and supporting the bands on the messageboard are the prerequisites supposedly, of which I do both.


The ONLY way to kick me out of your thread is by deleting the whole thread.
You don't have the authorative rights to EDIT or DELETE my post on this thread or any other threads for that matter unless you're a moderator for a forum here. Mark, Rahvin, and Hedon can kick (ban) me if it pleases them. And get it through your thick head.
If you were to leave UM, I can still post "Lalalalala", and it will be the latest post for the time being.

It doesn't matter what you post if I ignore you, because I don't see it.
I control this thread on my end, and whenever I choose, you go bye bye, get it?


Que?


Nope what?
Let me rephrase that:
I don't play by your rules, I play by the moderators' rules.

No, you play by mine. Cause again, this argument ends the moment I get fed up enough to ignore you.


Who are you to say I'm not contributing anything interesting? There are other posters on this thread that agrees with me (and me agreeing with them), such as:
- Bono vs. Mother Teresa
- Childish ridicule of avatars
- "Ownage" of thread and forum
Their points and arguments about these are just as valid as mine.

1) You still never proved that Bono knew what he was talking about.
2) You never called Salad's calling me troll childish. If you can't be objective, don't judge.
3) You still never disproved that I run the direction of this thread, whether it be by baiting you or proving you outright wrong.

If I'm not providing anything interesting, why are you still responding to me for the past what, 3-4 days? Would you respond to me if I posted: "qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm"?

Because you haven't dropped the argument, and I'm not conceding a victory.

Ignore me if you like, I can just as well (like you) engage in other threads and other forums and other issues.

That's fine by me, because again, I'll be here in my thread. I could give a care what happens on the rest of the board.


Welcome to UltimateMetal.com!
People are entitled to their opinions here.

Yup, and mine is that you may leave, because you're not going to change my mind.

Love,
Arch



No duh.



The word "better" misused a lot of times. A technical musician can play grunge if he or she likes. Perhaps, a grunge musician (who has proper training) can play technical. From what I heard, Fredrik Johansson that did the solos for "December Flower" is now in a Swedish rap group. If he's happy in that rap group, good for him!

Fredrik is techical. And he's doing rap, a less technical style. Could Snoop Dogg play December Flower? I doubt it. And you know what? December Flower is better than any rap tune.

Back to the word "better":
A technical musician can sell records "better" than a grunge, as well as a grunge musician can sell records "better" than a technical musician. Who gives a shit that a musician can shred? Sonny Bono can barely play anything on a piano, yet his song "I've got you babe" sells. Am I jealous script kiddies can make more money than I can? No. Some people can do certain specialized things that they love and I am happy for them. Why can't you? Why is there still complaints about it?

Who gives a shit that you can't shred? The laws of physics. Making the record...if the musician creating the record can't create what he hears in his head (it's too difficult for him to play), it's lost.

You're basically asking me not to be a cynical hard ass..."Be happy for them if they're happy..."

Why? Ignorance is bliss, after all.

 

[Inflames626]

About thread-ownership: This forum has seen hundreds of threads "hijacked" to completely different directions from what it's originator wished. There has been numerous threads that have existed long since their originator abandoned them. If I and Salamurhaaja were to start talking about industrial music / anime movies / differences between Finnish and Swedish beer / whatever and posted 500 posts in this thread, would the "ownership" of the thread somehow "change" from Inflames626 to us? No. Because this thread has from the beginning on been owned by everyone posting here - being it just mindless babble or well-argumented opinions. This "thread" is not rented by anyone, this is more like a single table in a big pub - if you are the first to sit there, it is still not more yours than someone else's; especially as you cannot force anyone away from "your" table (except by asking them politely), and everyone who so wishes can come and sit there and start talking about whatever they want. Only if someone starts dancing on the table, the owner (Mark) or one of the bartenders (our moderators) can throw you out. Therefore, this is our thread - we (the community) are the customers of this pub and we can call this place our "home", including every damn table in it.

Also, as Inflames626 seems to be so keen on democracy: the majority of the people in this forum believe this is not anyone's thread but one "owned" by all of us. Don't you think this community should be democratic and it's values (if such a word can be wasted here) should be defined by the majority?

About technicality in music: My father has been a jazz-musician for 30+ years. He's studied a lot of music theory (not just jazz, but classical etc.) and has even taught some. He once said to me that the very best jazz was all very simple - something he couldn't play, despite all his technical ability (don't know why, he's explanations go over my head). Me? I think all jazz just plain sucks. I listen to the so-called "melodic death metal" and think it is the best music on earth - just because no other music has such an effect on me. My father hates most of it - about Death he said something like "a very boring song-structure" (duh!), whereas he liked a piece of an old Theatre of Tragedy song and said something like "this has many interesting nuances all around" (and it was a very simple song in my ears - although I know nothing of music). The end result? I know what is good music and what is not - that which sounds good to my ears is good and if someone disagrees, he/she has something wrong with his/her taste. Enjoying music is a very psychological thing - a human can be conditioned to love/hate certain sounds and their combinations if need be. If you have great sex with the same music playing in the background (being it death metal, grunge or Britney Spears), you start liking it (the music, that is) after a while. The same thing goes around if you get kicked to the balls every time a certain song plays.

Why then to discuss musical preferences, if personal tastes has no connection to "technicality" or "heaviness" or any other measurable and universally accepted subject? Well, to entertain each other. I find it very enjoyable (sometimes amusing even) to hear about other people's opinions about certain songs / bands / musical styles, especially when they do not try to be dead serious about the "rightness" of their opinion. And I do like to "argue" about the reasoning behind the said tastes someone has - especially with those, who have the most differing opinion about them. You, Inflames626, just happen to have a taste too similar to mine for me to find such a discussion enjoyable, for I too hold Haven and The Mind's I among the "least excellent" of DT's pieces of highly original art. And I don't know shit about any other band or album, really.

-Villain (now, finally going to bed)

The very presence of a moderator doesn't make it democratic, does it? More like an oligarchy of Mark and his moderators.

This thread did not exist before me. I created the thread, gave it life, and guide it. My thread. It dies without me, because when I go, the thread goes. Why? There are more visible places on the board to chat. The only reason to remain in this thread is to irk me. This thread will go on dead, unused, and empty.

I think jazz sucks too, but only from an aesthetic standpoint, and not from a musical standpoint. I could never play Myles Davis, yet the endless lack of key centers going nowhere bites my ass...like incomplete sentences all garbled, and no resolution to the idea.

All preferences are tied to a universally acceptable quality, otherwise music wouldn't be an agreed upon concept (that is, in that is has melody and rhythm). Even non musicians say..."I like this part because of the so and so..." All preferences are tied to a quality. And I like things that are complicated...why? Because they can go from being busy and complicated to simple and nuanced.

Why do I not like grunge? Because it will never be complicated. I saw an old SNL with Pearl Jam on it...it sucked. I love Eddie's voice, but do you know why I hate Pearl Jam? The shitty live sound they had going for one, they sounded out of tune. Secondly, it wasn't ever going anywhere interesting...Mike McCready basically raked his strings back and forth and considered it a "solo". Fine for a quick and dirty tune that's supposed to be simple, say Sabbath's Paranoid...

But I like to hear beauty in the music, a laticework of chords and melodies, Enya, Lacuna Coil, Synergy, all that Pure Moods shit...

Why? Because jazz sounds like all restaurant music to me...and blues, because it's based on a "formula", is basically the same 12 bars over and over, with the same turnaround licks being repeated again and again that they've become as cliche as "Smoke on the Water" over the past 100 years.

Some bands I like and why they're original
Sepultura: because Igor, especially now in a one guitar setup, plays drums like a lead guitarist and drives the whole band. He IS the show.

Faith No More: Mike Patton could sing anything, and they could play anything from a jazzy ballad to the classic and overplayed Epic.

Metallica: Not so much now days, but until 1991 they set the standard.

Maiden: Same, until 1990.

Lacuna Coil: Because Cristina Scabbia has a beautiful voice, sounds like no one else, and can carry a song totally on her voice, making it memorable to the point where it sounds like no one else. Double bass and traditional metal elements are used sparingly, so that the music doesn't sound redundant. The guitars are even simple! But do you know why? Because the singing is complex.

Gardenian: Because they're heavy as fuck and because I loved how Jim Kjiel worked out "Heartless", blending that odd pop/metal hybrid of Powertool years before R2R and yet no one bitched about them selling out.

Death: Because everyone agrees that Chuck Schnuldiner made the blueprint for American death metal.

Skynyrd: First major Southern rock band maybe...blues without the same old generic BB King sound. I honestly think everyone patronizes that dude about how great he is because he's old and he started the sound, because I swear every song sounds just the same.

Hendrix: Popularized funk-rock hybrid and popularized the wah wah.

and so on.

 

[Arch]

The very presence of a moderator doesn't make it democratic, does it? More like an oligarchy of Mark and his moderators.

Pure democracy would be something similar to anarchy and chaos.
This thread right now (which doesn't belong to anyone) would be considered "flame". There are a lot of forums and messageboards where flames are not allow and people are to be banned for flaming.

For example, the hmas.org forum has more stringent rules for the posters. Amerikanska.com does not allow "flaming".

Rahvin does not censure people on this forum, however in %0.00001 cases, some threads were removed and people were banned.

So in comparison, UM and the DT forum is very democratic, unlike you, where you want people to leave this thread. Yes, that's right! I said, "this thread" and not "your thread".

This thread did not exist before me. I created the thread, gave it life, and guide it. My thread. It dies without me, because when I go, the thread goes. Why? There are more visible places on the board to chat. The only reason to remain in this thread is to irk me. This thread will go on dead, unused, and empty.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Okay, whatever Gepetto.

 

[Arch]

Anyone seen the anime Akira?
Man, it's very captivating and mind blowing.

 

[Inflames626]

Pure democracy would be something similar to anarchy and chaos.
This thread right now (which doesn't belong to anyone) would be considered "flame". There are a lot of forums and messageboards where flames are not allow and people are to be banned for flaming.

For example, the hmas.org forum has more stringent rules for the posters. Amerikanska.com does not allow "flaming".

Rahvin does not censure people on this forum, however in %0.00001 cases, some threads were removed and people were banned.

So in comparison, UM and the DT forum is very democratic, unlike you, where you want people to leave this thread. Yes, that's right! I said, "this thread" and not "your thread".



MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Okay, whatever Gepetto.

2 guys causing trouble and being assholes is hardly democratic

again, i click you, you go bye bye.

My thread, my way, baby.

 

[DE]

Have fun in a thread on your own.

 

[Arch]

Bruce not growling isn't enough to make them different. Dave Mustaine doesn't sing like James Hetfield either, yet Mechanix and the Four Horsemen sound reallllllllllyyyyyyy similar...

Not growling enough... that's right, Aaron. There are differences between DT and Iron Maiden. You just proved your point.

Mechanix and Four Horsemen is written by the same man, Mustaine; but with different solos and different vocals and different lyrics.

Damn right it's my thread.

Correction: our thread. You are the only person that still thinks that. Find me some links and find me some other resources that you "own" this thread.

I'm not paying UM because they didn't ask me for money for using its board. Agreeing to the terms of use and supporting the bands on the messageboard are the prerequisites supposedly, of which I do both.

There ya go. You're not renting here. We're just only members here. Free members, might I add.

It doesn't matter what you post if I ignore you, because I don't see it.
I control this thread on my end, and whenever I choose, you go bye bye, get it?

Wait! If you don't see it, it doesn't exist? Wow, pure self-centric logic right there.

You may start the thread, but we can navigate it anywhere, like Villain said. Something observed by Rahvin is that, threads sometimes end up discussing about sex, and not by the thread starter.

No, you play by mine. Cause again, this argument ends the moment I get fed up enough to ignore you.

Ditto. And the feeling is mutual.

1) You still never proved that Bono knew what he was talking about.
2) You never called Salad's calling me troll childish. If you can't be objective, don't judge.
3) You still never disproved that I run the direction of this thread, whether it be by baiting you or proving you outright wrong.

1. That's because you never gave any direct quotes from Bono. "Bono doesn't know what he's talking about. Boo hoo hoo."
2. I never knew calling someone a troll can incite such emotional stress upon you. I shall send my deepest condolences and flowers to comfort you... Hah! People are called "trolls" left and right in here, since you haven't been here long enough, you wouldn't know.
3. Currently, I'm giving this direction to you, because I feel you don't feel adequate enough, so I'm giving you a little power trip. This thread (not your thread) can be hijacked. Time will tell.

Because you haven't dropped the argument, and I'm not conceding a victory.

Doesn't matter. You are still "interested" in proving me wrong, which you still haven't done.

Yup, and mine is that you may leave, because you're not going to change my mind.

Neither will you.

Fredrik is techical. And he's doing rap, a less technical style. Could Snoop Dogg play December Flower? I doubt it. And you know what? December Flower is better than any rap tune.

Does it matter if Snoop Dogg can do "December Flower"?

Heh, I agree that the "December Flower" solos are better than any rap tune, but again, that's just a matter of opinions.
It's just trivial to argue with a rapper that the "December Flower" solos are better than any rap tune; over some technical issues of the solo. Perhaps in the end, "God" will say, Dr. Dre's "Dre Day" is better than the "December Flower" solos.

 

[Arch]

2 guys causing trouble and being assholes is hardly democratic

again, i click you, you go bye bye.

My thread, my way, baby.

You click what?

 

[Inflames626]

Not growling enough... that's right, Aaron. There are differences between DT and Iron Maiden. You just proved your point.

Mechanix and Four Horsemen is written by the same man, Mustaine; but with different solos and different vocals and different lyrics.

Growling and singing is NOT enough to make them different. Hence, you sing DT clean, it becomes Maiden. Note the negative.

You never rebuffed my "Wasted Years" "Sun Fired Blanks" comparison.



Correction: our thread. You are the only person that still thinks that. Find me some links and find me some other resources that you "own" this thread.

I own this thread because I perpetuate it, as I've said time and again. No one replied to your Akira post. You can't keep this thing going alone, I can keep it going alone, because I'm better at pissing people off than you.

There ya go. You're not renting here. We're just only members here. Free members, might I add.

Yes I am renting, and I stop renting the moment I unsubscribe to the forum.



Wait! If you don't see it, it doesn't exist? Wow, pure self-centric logic right there.

Yeah, kind of anti-Platonism. Rather than a concept of "ideal forms", it's the idea that if I don't see it, it doesn't exist. A lot like today's youth on religion. In sociology it's called "symbolic interactionalism". Whether you still exist or not, does it matter if it doesn't affect me? Not really.

You may start the thread, but we can navigate it anywhere, like Villain said. Something observed by Rahvin is that, threads sometimes end up discussing about sex, and not by the thread starter.

You can't navigate it anywhere if people stop coming here, and they will once I leave, save the oddball glancing at it and firing a comment. I am the passion and the life of this thread.


Ditto. And the feeling is mutual.

So end the argument. You've only bolstered my "elitism" with your stupidity.

1. That's because you never gave any direct quotes from Bono. "Bono doesn't know what he's talking about. Boo hoo hoo."

His even becoming a social worker is the idiotic thing. Why wait until this late to do it, anyway? He has no business being treated like a foreign dignitary. That would be like assuming Britney Spears could end the war in Iraq. "Oh, Bono's Irish, he knows what it means to be in a war torn country!" Yeah, right. Who were those guys who played with Paul Simon, from South Africa...THAT was...and is, a wartorn country, officially declared or not, as the domestic violence there is among the highest rate in the world.

2. I never knew calling someone a troll can incite such emotional stress upon you. I shall send my deepest condolences and flowers to comfort you... Hah! People are called "trolls" left and right in here, since you haven't been here long enough, you wouldn't know.

It's not calling me a troll. It's siding with Salad just because he's a regular.

3. Currently, I'm giving this direction to you, because I feel you don't feel adequate enough, so I'm giving you a little power trip. This thread (not your thread) can be hijacked. Time will tell.

It won't be. I go, it goes.



Doesn't matter. You are still "interested" in proving me wrong, which you still haven't done.

I'm really more interested in you going away and maybe getting a musical education, then coming back in a couple years. I suggest one of the following, as is available at www.mi.edu

Unlike computer processing power, music theory doesn't double itself every 18 months.

Metal Guitar
Applied Metal Guitar
Guitar EFX
Acoustic Guitar
Guitar Heroes of the ‘60s and ‘70s
Guitar Heroes of the ‘80s
Alternative Guitar Heroes
Acid Jazz/Funk Guitar Workshop I
Acid Jazz/Funk Guitar Workshop II
Blues Guitar
Twang Guitar
Guitar Workout
Jazz Listening
Blues Listening: Electric Blues Guitar Masters
Classical Guitar
Instrument Maintenance and Repair
Playing Techniques for Guitar
Group Lessons
Jazz Workshop I
Jazz Workshop II
Applied Rock Improvisation
Applied Technique
Chord Melody I
Chord Melody II
Eclectic Electric Guitar
Country Guitar
Jazz Guitar I
Jazz Guitar II
Contemporary Guitar Styles
Melodic Soloing
Recording Guitar
Rock Rhythm Guitar
Rock Lead Guitar
Afro-Cuban Guitar
Brazilian Guitar
Funk Guitar
Advanced Groove Concepts
GIT Project

Just a suggestion.








Neither will you.



Does it matter if Snoop Dogg can do "December Flower"?

It does if he wants to play a more demanding form of music.

Heh, I agree that the "December Flower" solos are better than any rap tune, but again, that's just a matter of opinions.
It's just trivial to argue with a rapper that the "December Flower" solos are better than any rap tune; over some technical issues of the solo. Perhaps in the end, "God" will say, Dr. Dre's "Dre Day" is better than the "December Flower" solos.

BTW, the solos really aren't that technical, they just sound great. Whenever I would improv a solo, I would tend to play like that (just not as competently, trust me), and I often was criticized for "playing a scale up and down".

Just my experience with it.

 

[Arch]

You never rebuffed my "Wasted Years" "Sun Fired Blanks" comparison.

That's because you never answer my "Who else thinks Bono received more awards and recognitions than Mother Teresa?" question.

I own this thread because I perpetuate it, as I've said time and again. No one replied to your Akira post. You can't keep this thing going alone, I can keep it going alone, because I'm better at pissing people off than you.

I'm running to the hills, Aaron. I'm so scared of you. :Smug:
There you go with your "I'm better" at pissing people off. "I'm better this" "I'm better that". Did mommy and daddy didn't give you enough attention?
Once again, this is Mark's community. This is also DT's community. There's no "ownage" in a community, except Mark and Hedon. Mark's server, DT's paying it. DT owns it. It has Dark Tranquillity's name on it. In fact, even though Rahvin donates money to UM, it's not even his!

Yes I am renting, and I stop renting the moment I unsubscribe to the forum.

How much is the rent, again? Umm, is this a monthly, semi annual, or yearly contract?

You can't navigate it anywhere if people stop coming here, and they will once I leave, save the oddball glancing at it and firing a comment. I am the passion and the life of this thread.

You may start the thread, but the life of this thread (again, not your thread) is people's thoughts and ideas, including your's, mine, other people's posts, and future people's posts.

So end the argument. You've only bolstered my "elitism" with your stupidity.

Your elitism shows your stupidity, thus, making you a bigger and bigger jackass. There isn't many people on this thread that agrees with you. You're just fighting a lost cause, and it's a pathetic fight. A pathetic fight that makes me laugh.

His even becoming a social worker is the idiotic thing. Why wait until this late to do it, anyway?

Why can't a man choose to decide when he becomes a social worker?
Bill Gates started to begin donating billions of dollars in his 40's.
How is being a social worker "the idiotic thing"?
There are a lot of people in their 30's and 40's starting college. It's never too late, and so is Bono's generosity.
There are many many things in my life that I want to do, and my age and time won't stop me from doing it.

He has no business being treated like a foreign dignitary. That would be like assuming Britney Spears could end the war in Iraq. "Oh, Bono's Irish, he knows what it means to be in a war torn country!" Yeah, right. Who were those guys who played with Paul Simon, from South Africa...THAT was...and is, a wartorn country, officially declared or not, as the domestic violence there is among the highest rate in the world.

What do you expect Bono to do? Turn down meetings and banquets? Not get invited to the White House? Not shake hands with diplomats?
When I did community work, I did not want to receive awards, plaques, and recognitions. What do you want me to do? Tell the award giver to "fuck themselves"? "Please don't recognize me"?

It won't be. I go, it goes.

You go? Fine and dandy with me. No qualms about that.

I'm really more interested in you going away and maybe getting a musical education, then coming back in a couple years. I suggest one of the following, as is available at www.mi.edu

Thanks for the suggestion. Right now, I'm swamped with school and work and some precious free time to mock you.

Does it matter if Snoop Dogg can do "December Flower"?

It does if he wants to play a more demanding form of music.

He chose not to. Rappin iz hiz specialty, dawg. Fo shizzle to da D Oh double G, ya see?

 

[Salamurhaaja]

Anyone seen the anime Akira?
Man, it's very captivating and mind blowing.

This be true, but I am more for stuff like Ghost In The Shell
and the earlier movie from the same people Patlabor 2 - The movie.
I think Akira is a bit over-rated, as an anime, I love the mange
version tho, it actually makes sense in that form, the movie is
just not enough to cover what is needed, I always had the
feeling they were supposed to make more of them.
As for what comes to Ghost In The Shell, there is a series out
now in japan, so far they have shown 18 episodes and I can
say it's very good, but in a different way from the movie and
of course in the series, the events of the movie haven't happened,
alternate time or something of that sort.