Does "anyone" like Reroute?

[Inflames626]

Yes, very truly. It is, as they say, how amazing it is that hindsight always sees with perfect vision.

I have that problem all the time with riffs...when Megadeth came out with "Trust" in 97, it sounded so complicated and odd, then I got the tabs, and learned some of it...and it made me angry.

The harder you try to be revolutionary, the more it eludes you.

 

[Arch]

Sounds to me like you're angry that you don't know as much, and that you are trying to make up for people that don't know as much because you secretly would like to know all those technical terms. Yes, the best music is technical, be it jazz, classical, or metal, just like the best reading is literature and not the phonebook.

I'm not angry because I know or don't know much. I'm not angry at all. I may not know all the ins-and-outs of music, but I respect people's taste in music. No music is better than the other.
"Best music is technical"... well, that's a matter of opinion; and you drive really hard your beliefs down to people's throat much like an Islam fundamentalist claiming "the U.S. is pure evil" on and on and on. You not only mention music is best when it's technical once, but many many times. You drone and drone about it. It gets sick and tiring, just like Hitler ranting about Jews and capitalism in Mein Kampf. You don't seem to get over it, as if a girlfriend dumped you and you can't get over the loss for years and years.

Comparing me to Hitler is really hilarious. You're comparing me to someone who killed millions just because I wrankled your ass on a messageboard. You're, firstly, going too far, and, secondly, groping for insults.

The way you and Hitler bitch, complain, and criticize things is amazingly similar. Hah! You even tell people not to post any responses on this thread if they disagree at you... you thread Nazi!

The exposition on degenerate art, I believe, passed through Germany and Austria in 1936. There were two showings, one of Nazi art and one of then-modern art. The modern art show was more popular. I don't need you to lecture me on history. Much like in Russia at the time, any non-Socialist Realist art was sold to finance war preparations.

Why shouldn't I lecture you on history? You have way too much pride in yourself, Mr. Music Theory book-up-your-ass?

Accepting of ideas doesn't un-make a killer, it simply makes them a more versatile, adaptable killer, China's government being a perfect example of a state's ability to disguise brutality under a guise of "accepting" global capitalism.

Okay, I had a long day at work and school, getting tired... so what's your point in bringing this up and applying it to our conversation?

I've considered converting to Judaism. No Jew basher here.

And this one too. Is this one being used to divert a topic?

...

I am oh-so-curious to find out what your next reply is: "But-but-but, you, Arch, cannot prove that Band X has the ability to do all that wonderful wankery skills. That guitarist with his 7 string guitar wasn't able to do 1/100th of what Yngwie does... well that's what I learned in GIT. Look at me! I went to GIT! Look! I have my music theory books shoved all the way up my ass!"

Flames: I'm not saying a thing about GIT other than, being where I'm from with the income disparity between the South in general and the West Coast, I was very lucky and blessed by whatever runs the universe to see all sorts of incredible musicians broaden my horizons, guys such as Mike Stern (guitarist for Myles Davis), Dave Lombardo (ex-Slayer), former Speak No Evil guitarist Danny Gill (who played nu-metal at the time but started out as a devout Maiden-ite...I went to his open counseling sessions a lot Friday mornings and loved his ability to combine the two), and numerous other people. We had a session drummer come in who did work with Sugar Ray to do rhythm section workshops, and we had official people from Line 6 that showed us how to use the then new (in 1999) PODs and how to get the most out of them. Is this saying, look at what I've had and what you haven't? No, it's saying, look how lucky you were, Aaron, to be exposed to so much, to be exposed to David Oakes classical guitar classes, to have the mystery of theory solved, to see so much, and to retain even 2% of it. And to have fun on Metal Meltdown Friday LPWs! I went in thinking Yngwie was God, I came out thinking that, as hard as that technique is to build, there's more to music...playing "loose, shitty" guitar like Hendrix or SRV, which in my opinion is harder than being technical. But, DESPITE these concessions, I don't like these styles as much because I don't like the sound of weak or bluesy intervals, specifically the dominant 7th and the 13th. They jangle and are too dissonant to my ears. At least in my criticism, I'm a little more valid in why I don't like things, just like you'd be more valid than me in saying why or not you like Linux better than Windows.

I may have my preferences to computers, but I don't go around preaching about Windows vs. Linux vs. Mac vs. Unix on computer-related messageboards and criticizing anything and everything, and nothing has changed in computing for the past x amount of years. There's no point in bringing those trivial things up. There's absolutely no need to have a showdown of a novice computer user to prove his/her knowledge of little intricacies of computers. All too childish. Reminds me of 7 year-olds seeing who has the biggest toy truck. "Oh yeah!?! Naa naa naa. PRRRROOOOVE IT!!!"

...

Bork bork bork...
...Fart fart fart

...

What's wrong with an anonymity of a networking specialist? It's just like any job and any career that people don't brand their name to. Did you expect a closet full of routers, switches, and hubs with a autographed signature of the network admin? If a person who's a network specialist wants some kind of recognitions, he/she will quit that job and become a musician, actor/actress, politician, or a CEO of a company.

Flames: Not saying there's anything wrong with it. Just saying I would be unhappy with such a job because of the anonymity.

I would like to know why you're not happy with a job with anonymity?

I don't understand what you're talking about. What argument? What statements? Please don't be vague. Am I desperate to win your argument? Of course not, like you said, you're not a mind reader, duh.

Flames: If so, then why continue? I'm not going to concede any points to you. Give it up.

I continue, because it's like me giving a drunk guy more beer to make a fool of himself even more.

...

To Catholics, keeping people alive is more important than killing. That's not my place to answer but her's. The issue was whether Bono deserved more credit than her, which he doesn't.

Who's giving Bono MORE credit than Mother Teresa?

Other criticisms have come from the Bono issue and the merit of new metal.

My basic stands on these are, Bono doesn't know what he's talking about and, musicians who are also metal fans have more validity in criticizing than non-musicians.

Okay, inform me on what Bono says that shows him not knowning what he's talking about.
"musicians who are also metal fans have more validity in criticizing than non-musicians." That's a rather harsh statement. Wait, so, if I don't follow up on pop music and write pop music, I can't say "Baby Hit Me One More Time" sounds better than "Genie in a Bottle"?

Accomplishment is subjective. Ending this argument would be an accomplishment, and the moderator to end it would deserve more than Mother Teresa and Bono combined. I'm beginning to tire of the redundancy.

And you think I'm not (and perhaps others) are tired of your redundant complaints?

Your stupidity:
- Self contradictions.
- Your inability to accept other people's music and art.
- Your childish mockery of people's avatar; no different with 1st graders making fun of other student's name.
- You somehow think this thread is entirely your's.
- You thought that this forum is entirely your's.

Flames:
-Find some contradictions.

Glad to be of service:
Here's what other people mentioned about you being contradictory: post #137 (Salamy) and post #142 (Villain)
I'm getting tired... I will get back and write about you being self-contradictory. You would probably find some typographical errors or grammatical errors in my writing by now.

...

Back to music, there are, after all, 7 modes: major, minor, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, and locrian, yet metal can only seem to use three, not to mention all the altered modes and scales and exotic tonalities. If Satriani can DO it, why can't you be open minded and ATTEMPT it or at least learn about it and say, "You know, Aaron's right, a lot of this metal sounds the same because of..."? Then you'll see how stagnant metal is, due mostly to most metal bands being unwilling to be musicians and to be more oriented toward "entertainers".

I definitely don't disagree that there isn't much new with metal. Without getting into the nitty-gritty details, RtR tried to have something different but it ends up sounding like Soilwork and a drop of Slipknot; not saying that it's bad.
Well, if a metal band (or any other band) performs music... they are musicians. They may be entertainers (with theatrics, make up, personalities, and costumes), but if the band members play music... they are musicians, be it original or cover songs.

-Childish mockery's come from being called "troll" and harassed by a self-righteous glam-rock fool who expects me to take him seriously when he wont even supply any real life off-board info to justify his ideas.

Heh... I thought being called a "troll" here is a compliment.

-The thread is mine, due to reasons discussed. I leave, it dies and loses all (meaningful, aka non-argumentative) discussion because other more popular threads are out there. My thread is a pimple on the ass of the messageboard universe, and it's alllllllllllll mine.

This thread is our's... mentioned earlier by another poster. This thread and discussion will still live on, as long as the UM server is up.

Nexttttttttttttttttt topic?

Pepsi or Coke?


Good night, Aaron. I must get some sleep.

 

[Tebus]

I can't read anymore.

 

[Inflames626]

I'm not angry because I know or don't know much. I'm not angry at all. I may not know all the ins-and-outs of music, but I respect people's taste in music. No music is better than the other.
"Best music is technical"... well, that's a matter of opinion; and you drive really hard your beliefs down to people's throat much like an Islam fundamentalist claiming "the U.S. is pure evil" on and on and on. You not only mention music is best when it's technical once, but many many times. You drone and drone about it. It gets sick and tiring, just like Hitler ranting about Jews and capitalism in Mein Kampf. You don't seem to get over it, as if a girlfriend dumped you and you can't get over the loss for years and years.

Flames says: These political tie-ins don't help the thread either and get it further off topic. Again, I think it's just being pissed off that i can draw such such conclusions based upon my background and training. The redundancy was probably due to having to defend the point from people who won't drop arguments.

The way you and Hitler bitch, complain, and criticize things is amazingly similar. Hah! You even tell people not to post any responses on this thread if they disagree at you... you thread Nazi!

Flames says: I said for them not to reply if they can't disagree in a mature way. Rahvin has been a model of that, and the Helloween dude. I also asked them not to post if they were going to be disruptive. This is not a lack of toleration but a lack of desire for anymore fighting.


Why shouldn't I lecture you on history? You have way too much pride in yourself, Mr. Music Theory book-up-your-ass?

Flames: Definite...uhm...run out of ideas, sick of me for just existing comment.


Okay, I had a long day at work and school, getting tired... so what's your point in bringing this up and applying it to our conversation?

Flames: That open-mindedness is not always betterness.

And this one too. Is this one being used to divert a topic?


I may have my preferences to computers, but I don't go around preaching about Windows vs. Linux vs. Mac vs. Unix on computer-related messageboards and criticizing anything and everything, and nothing has changed in computing for the past x amount of years. There's no point in bringing those trivial things up. There's absolutely no need to have a showdown of a novice computer user to prove his/her knowledge of little intricacies of computers. All too childish. Reminds me of 7 year-olds seeing who has the biggest toy truck. "Oh yeah!?! Naa naa naa. PRRRROOOOVE IT!!!"

Flames: Sure there is. It's a messageboard. No one here I asked about was a "novice musician". It was giving my opinion on an unoriginal DT and being attacked by Salad. I never claimed anyone was lazy or stupid for not knowing as much about music as someone with schooling, just that they had less valid opinions due to less information. Just that I felt they were rather lazy if they had a fairly open opportunity to learn more and didnt take advantage.

I would like to know why you're not happy with a job with anonymity?

Flames: That would get us further afield and is simply a personal preference.

I continue, because it's like me giving a drunk guy more beer to make a fool of himself even more.

Flames: I don't think I'm swinging in the dark, but these terrorist comparisons are getting really, really off-base...


Who's giving Bono MORE credit than Mother Teresa?

Flames: You were, to begin with, trying to detract from her with your info, which I concede is probably true. However, he still has no place acting like he knows what he's talking about just because he's a concerned citizen. If he had a little formal training, was my only point, then I would respect him more. I dislike him getting so much press just because he's a token speechmaker. I will grant him certain knowledge based on what he's seen, but im sorry, I don't know why world leaders are so concerned about kissing his ass and including him. Pull in more NGOs and such instead.


Okay, inform me on what Bono says that shows him not knowning what he's talking about.
"musicians who are also metal fans have more validity in criticizing than non-musicians." That's a rather harsh statement. Wait, so, if I don't follow up on pop music and write pop music, I can't say "Baby Hit Me One More Time" sounds better than "Genie in a Bottle"?

Flames: Not with as much preciseness, legitimacy, and authority as someone who does follow the music, no.

And you think I'm not (and perhaps others) are tired of your redundant complaints?

Flames: I think everyone's a little tired and would relish leaving this behind. I'm ready when you are, but I'm not conceding any argument.

Glad to be of service:
Here's what other people mentioned about you being contradictory: post #137 (Salamy) and post #142 (Villain)
I'm getting tired... I will get back and write about you being self-contradictory. You would probably find some typographical errors or grammatical errors in my writing by now.

Rest well.

I definitely don't disagree that there isn't much new with metal. Without getting into the nitty-gritty details, RtR tried to have something different but it ends up sounding like Soilwork and a drop of Slipknot; not saying that it's bad.

Flames: I haven't heard Soilwork. Flames toured with Slip before RtR came out, remember? Through Europe and Britain. While it's definitely their weakest work and the nu-metal sound is there, they could have sounded even more nu-metal. Generally, the more technically accomplished a part is ("Upon an Oaken Throne" or "Stand Ablaze"), the less it sounds like nu-metal. Gardenian was sounding pop long before In Flames, "Power Tool" especially.

Well, if a metal band (or any other band) performs music... they are musicians. They may be entertainers (with theatrics, make up, personalities, and costumes), but if the band members play music... they are musicians, be it original or cover songs.

Flames: There are instrument players, and there are musicians. There are songwriters like Hank Williams Sr. who knew three chords. This did not make him a musician. The difference between a "guitar player" and a "musician" would involve skill and the complexity of the work being written or performed. What's the difference between just a painter and an artist? Was da Vinci a scientist or just a really open-minded artist? Musician is a subjective term, and in my opinion, a musician is a studio player who can enter any room, slap down any groove in any style with equal authority, and sound convincing as he does it. This is why many can't handle the life of a studio musician. They can't handle playing anything at anytime for money with no inspiration beforehand. That's partly why I left GIT a year early, but I haven't given up on music, either.



Heh... I thought being called a "troll" here is a compliment.

Flames: I dislike resorting to childish things too, but you know, he could've just said fine when I told him I didnt care what he felt regarding that I posted an IF thread in a DT forum.


This thread is our's... mentioned earlier by another poster. This thread and discussion will still live on, as long as the UM server is up.

Flames: My thread. I nurture and water it even now by replying to you.



Pepsi or Coke?

Flames: Coke, paper or plastic, Archie?


Good night, Aaron. I must get some sleep.

Flames: A bientot.

 

[Inflames626]

I can't read anymore.

Nice to see you Teebs. Shoot me a line anytime.

 

[Arch]

I said for them not to reply if they can't disagree in a mature way. Rahvin has been a model of that, and the Helloween dude. I also asked them not to post if they were going to be disruptive. This is not a lack of toleration but a lack of desire for anymore fighting.

There's no use in telling people to not to be "disruptive" as you call it, when you spout things out of your ass. Welcome to free speech. Free fucking speech!

Sure there is. It's a messageboard. No one here I asked about was a "novice musician". It was giving my opinion on an unoriginal DT and being attacked by Salad. I never claimed anyone was lazy or stupid for not knowing as much about music as someone with schooling, just that they had less valid opinions due to less information. Just that I felt they were rather lazy if they had a fairly open opportunity to learn more and didnt take advantage.

Less valid opinions? In this thread, you questioned my U.S. History professor's knowledge of working conditions and protesting with RATM. Now, who are you to say that he's not a political scientist to understand poor working conditions. What makes you a credible person to discredit my U.S. History professor? Somehow, there's something wrong with my History professor protesting, but yet you criticized Bono, Sean Penn, RATM, and others for being political (specifically, you said they are part-time social do-gooders, full time entertainers). Right there, there's an example of you having double standards and a slight hint of self contradiction.

That would get us further afield and is simply a personal preference.

Well, you were quite vocal about personal preferences and personal opinions and a bit of your life on this thread. Please do share.

Flames: I don't think I'm swinging in the dark, but these terrorist comparisons are getting really, really off-base...

Off-base comparisons. You compared Bono to Mother Teresa. Sure, both do some social goods, but both are quite different.

Who's giving Bono MORE credit than Mother Teresa?

Flames: You were, to begin with, trying to detract from her with your info, which I concede is probably true. However, he still has no place acting like he knows what he's talking about just because he's a concerned citizen. If he had a little formal training, was my only point, then I would respect him more. I dislike him getting so much press just because he's a token speechmaker. I will grant him certain knowledge based on what he's seen, but im sorry, I don't know why world leaders are so concerned about kissing his ass and including him. Pull in more NGOs and such instead.

I was? You still don't get my point. The stuff that happened and occurred to Mother T. pertaining to not helping rape victims was the point that she was rarely criticized for that action. "Probably true" you say? There are other sources that mentions it. No need to send you links after links after links about what Mother T. did. I gave you 2 sources. If you still don't want to believe that, get yourself a time machine, and witness what had happened, because I wasn't there.

Now, give me your links that mentions Bono receiving MORE credit than Mother T, please? With a cherry on top.

Okay, inform me on what Bono says that shows him not knowning what he's talking about.
"musicians who are also metal fans have more validity in criticizing than non-musicians." That's a rather harsh statement. Wait, so, if I don't follow up on pop music and write pop music, I can't say "Baby Hit Me One More Time" sounds better than "Genie in a Bottle"?

Flames: Not with as much preciseness, legitimacy, and authority as someone who does follow the music, no.

You may know about music theories, I'll give you that with your training in GIT. However, you don't seem to have a lot of preciseness and authority in your complaints about RATM, Bono, and other "entertainers". Just like you said and I guess you proved your point; unless you're Bono's biographer. I'm just turning the tables on you.

I don't care what their background is, I give people a chance to say what they want, again, not caring what their background or authority is. I mean, I've never taken illegal drugs but I could tell you it's bad. I've never fought in a war, but I know it's bad. Dr. Drew Pinsky is not a psychiatrist, but he gives good advice. Neither of my parents are doctors, but they gave advice to me on health.

You seem to have issues with trust and authority. Maybe those are two things you should talk to your shrink about.

Rest well.

Thanks.

Well, if a metal band (or any other band) performs music... they are musicians. They may be entertainers (with theatrics, make up, personalities, and costumes), but if the band members play music... they are musicians, be it original or cover songs.

Flames: There are instrument players, and there are musicians. There are songwriters like Hank Williams Sr. who knew three chords. This did not make him a musician. The difference between a "guitar player" and a "musician" would involve skill and the complexity of the work being written or performed. What's the difference between just a painter and an artist? Was da Vinci a scientist or just a really open-minded artist? Musician is a subjective term, and in my opinion, a musician is a studio player who can enter any room, slap down any groove in any style with equal authority, and sound convincing as he does it. This is why many can't handle the life of a studio musician. They can't handle playing anything at anytime for money with no inspiration beforehand. That's partly why I left GIT a year early, but I haven't given up on music, either.

No, we're going by the dictionary's definition of a "musician" not your's. A dictionary has the authority.
According to www.dictionary.com a musician is: " One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music. "

...

This thread is our's... mentioned earlier by another poster. This thread and discussion will still live on, as long as the UM server is up.

Flames: My thread. I nurture and water it even now by replying to you.

You may start this thread, but it can lead anywhere by anyone. Although you started this particular thread, it could disappear or live on as long as the server is up; with or without you. (Tee hee, a U2 song )

Pepsi or Coke?

Flames: Coke, paper or plastic, Archie?

Coke in the paper bag, paper bag in the plastic bag.

 

[Inflames626]

No time for a full-blown rebuttal atm, but the Mother T/Bono comparison was because she was the only social worker I could think of at the time. A far more credible social worker than Bono, as much as I disagree with his politics, is Jimmy Carter. He knows what he's talking about. However, as an ineffective president, his validity of opinion is compromised someone.

As far as "musician", that's like athlete: who are you going to take more seriously, a 2nd string running back or Barry Sanders?

It's the connotation, not the denotation.

 

[Arch]

No time for a full-blown rebuttal atm, but the Mother T/Bono comparison was because she was the only social worker I could think of at the time. A far more credible social worker than Bono, as much as I disagree with his politics, is Jimmy Carter. He knows what he's talking about. However, as an ineffective president, his validity of opinion is compromised someone.

Bono may or may not know everything about helping the world, but I feel (and many people as well) that Bono is doing something good with his life, money, and fame.

For example, do you think President George W. Bush know all the dynamics, history, and background pertaining to the issues of Israel vs. Palestine? I would safely bet my money on "no." Just suppose if Bush pulled his resources together, and created an absolute peace between the Israelis and Palestinians, wouldn't that be better than history professors teaching Bush the history of Israel and Palestine and not do anything? Look, Bono is a musician and an entertainer. He can also be a social do-gooder. He may or may not know what he's talking about in regards to social welfare, but I think his causes help many people in the (two) third world. I haven't heard stories of Bono causing harm to people, have you? Okay, maybe that death warrant placed by the ayatollah of Iran a few years ago, but we'll overlook that.

As far as "musician", that's like athlete: who are you going to take more seriously, a 2nd string running back or Barry Sanders?

It's the connotation, not the denotation.

I don't know what's a 2nd string running back, but a running back is an athlete in the game of football. So is Barry Sanders (an athlete), if I'm not mistaken.

I don't care who I take more seriously, both are athletes.

Being in the IT field, I am not offended if someone used Visual Basic to drag and drop to create programs and calls him or herself a "computer programmer". That's just 1 kind of programmer.

There are many kinds of musicians, but a songwriter is also a musician, and so is an instrument player.

 

[Inflames626]

Bono may or may not know everything about helping the world, but I feel (and many people as well) that Bono is doing something good with his life, money, and fame.

For example, do you think President George W. Bush know all the dynamics, history, and background pertaining to the issues of Israel vs. Palestine? I would safely bet my money on "no." Just suppose if Bush pulled his resources together, and created an absolute peace between the Israelis and Palestinians, wouldn't that be better than history professors teaching Bush the history of Israel and Palestine and not do anything? Look, Bono is a musician and an entertainer. He can also be a social do-gooder. He may or may not know what he's talking about in regards to social welfare, but I think his causes help many people in the (two) third world. I haven't heard stories of Bono causing harm to people, have you? Okay, maybe that death warrant placed by the ayatollah of Iran a few years ago, but we'll overlook that.



I don't know what's a 2nd string running back, but a running back is an athlete in the game of football. So is Barry Sanders (an athlete), if I'm not mistaken.

I don't care who I take more seriously, both are athletes.

Being in the IT field, I am not offended if someone used Visual Basic to drag and drop to create programs and calls him or herself a "computer programmer". That's just 1 kind of programmer.

There are many kinds of musicians, but a songwriter is also a musician, and so is an instrument player.

Bush has a staff of highly paid people...

Bono has...Bono?

As you can see, my replies are getting shorter because im rapidly losing interest

2nd string=substitute

Also, do you want a logic programmer just out of school or one with years and years of experience to do your next big game's engine that you'll license out to dozens of companies? Connotation matters.

 

[Arch]

Bush has a staff of highly paid people...

Bono has...Bono?

Huh?

As you can see, my replies are getting shorter because im rapidly losing interest

Ditto

...

Also, do you want a logic programmer just out of school or one with years and years of experience to do your next big game's engine that you'll license out to dozens of companies? Connotation matters.

I'll hire some with years of experience for the next big game's engine. I'll hire a script kiddy to do something simple, cheaply. If I want to hear something technical, I'll listen to musicians like Yngwie or Dream Theater. If I want to hear 3 power chord grunge, I'll listen to musicians like Nirvana and Mudhoney.

 

[Gums]

As you can see, my replies are getting shorter because im rapidly losing interest

AHA! It has begun! You see, you're turning into one of us. Soon the loss of interest will turn into annoyance, and it will build and build as you notice the millions of Reroute to Remain threads and you can't escape them! You're doomed!

 

[Inflames626]

Huh?


Ditto


I'll hire some with years of experience for the next big game's engine. I'll hire a script kiddy to do something simple, cheaply. If I want to hear something technical, I'll listen to musicians like Yngwie or Dream Theater. If I want to hear 3 power chord grunge, I'll listen to musicians like Nirvana and Mudhoney.

Why listen to three chord grunge to begin with?

It's so...beneath me.

Metallica does almost the same thing for "Escape" from Ride the Lightning. And that's one chord metal...under the verse anyway.

Btw, I stopped reading all the rest of that stuff. I've been working on a Sepultura cover for about 6 weeks and I just finished it tonight. I'm very happy, and I'm not going to let a pithy argument piss me off.

+hands you a beer, cause I'm charitable+
+not that I know anything about charity+

 

[Arch]

Why listen to three chord grunge to begin with?

It's so...beneath me.

"It's so...beneath me." Love that quote, btw.

But first, I'll answer your question.
I listen to "three chord grunge" because there's music to it. There's some good tunes to grunge music. Part of me being "open minded to music" is trying out and liking different music.

Aaron, please further explain the "It's so... beneath me" in more detail.

Metallica does almost the same thing for "Escape" from Ride the Lightning. And that's one chord metal...under the verse anyway.

Btw, I stopped reading all the rest of that stuff. I've been working on a Sepultura cover for about 6 weeks and I just finished it tonight.

Good for you.

I'm very happy, and I'm not going to let a pithy argument piss me off.

...

Now, how has "a pithy argument piss you off"?

 

[rahvin]

i just read the whole thread once more trying to identify where exactly things have started going downhill. as much as i would like to start posting ontopic replies, this is going to prove a bit tricky until i understand what the topic currently is. i'm taking this chance to list some of the main issues brought up by the discussion so far, in order to better clarify to myself - and hopefully others - where we are and where we can go from here.

1. threads about in flames. the reason they are so criticized around here has nothing to do with in flames being a different band than dark tranquillity, in flames (maybe) getting commercial, or the subject being generally off topic. the actual point is that new in flames, their music, their latest record and a possible nu-metal or otherwise mainstream decay of the band have been discussed before about a hundred of times.
this poses somewhat of a problem when it comes to accepting new users that - as their first action coming here - start a new thread about this overly-beaten subject. part of this problem is that some (admittedly rather vague, of late) principles regarding thread consolidation would require that when a lot of threads discussing the exact same subject come up in a short period of time they get merged together in one thread on the subject, so that (among other reasons) the first page of the forum is not clogged up with a dozen similar titles, pushing back and sending to oblivion threads on different topics. another side of the issue is that 90% of the regulars around here have already voiced their opinion on r2r and in flames more than once, and they would likely just desert the thread because they'd lack the motivation to repeat the same opinions all over again.
as everyone can easily see i almost never merge threads anymore, especially when there have been more than a couple of replies on them. this is for the twofold reason that (a) there is not enough activity around here to justify such draconian measure when it's obvious that the thread starters are just unaware of their threads redundancy; (b) it's been a while since real troublemakers have visited this place and i sort of trust everybody who posts here to have some standards in their behaviour, so that the occasional "stray thread" won't become an annoyance anyway. if i feel people are crossing the line - i say to myself - i can always close it as a means to communicate the rather elaborate concept of "baf!".
it is undeniable that, even in the circumstances described above, there is a tendency to greet a newbie posting about in flames with a thinly veiled "fuck you". however, this is not to be seen as mortal offense that should be washed away by slaughtering the offender's family with a rusty pickaxe. the odd "oh, no, not that again! bugger off!" is part of some users' personality: one can be more or less inclined to agree or participate, but - in my opinion - it shouldn't be taken seriously at all. in fact, after the first air-raid of benevolent flames, even salamurhaaja got back to replying in a very civilized, and shall i say docile way as soon as the discussion went down the kmfdmkfmdkfmdkfmkdmfdfkmdkkdwhatstheirface way.
it can happen that when walking up to a company of friends and saying something that inadvertently upsets them, some might get a little more vocal about it while other just keep quiet waiting, as it were, for the other shoe to drop. this is because of each individual's character and it usually gets solved by explaining each other.
i think we should stop debating the validity of this thread in the light of its original being about in flames. now it's not, and nobody cares enough to want it to get back to the original topic. if inflames626 is interested in knowing what others here think about r2r he just has to ask and i will dig for older threads on the subject myself and provide him with the link. that's all there is to it.

2. avatars. to make it - hopefully - clear once and for all: many communities online and chat programs have been sort of invaded in the past couple of years by users who are on average much younger and much less experienced than those who were previously the "typical" forum or messenger dwellers. partly because of their age, they are also quite close to popular music and juvenile lingo. this goes far beyond the simple typing "u" instead of "you" or "k" instead of "ok", and it branches off in a thousand different directions depending on the sub-culture of choice. in particular, those who are taken by a black metal frenzy (either serious or pretend black metal, or so i gather), kindly assisted by some of their musical mentors, devised a whole range of words (and their distortion) to signify that they belong to a rather exclusive and - of course - totally meaningful group. they actually have some funny antics such as claiming that all that is entertainment and happiness is wrong and stuff. needless to say, these people have become the object of some intense mockery on the part of casual black metal listeners, non-black metal listeners, and actual black metal listeners who are just in for the music but don't give a shit about the image. so it has become rather popular on boards online to put up - either occasionally or always, it depends - a fake "black metal fanboy" persona to humour those who are really way into it. aside from more psychological connotations of this phenomenon, it's safe to say that both taking picture of oneself with a stupid but intense expression, or corpse-paint, and using distorted words like tr00 and grim and l33t, are all only examples in irony. there is nothing serious about it. everyone is allowed not to appreciate this kind of humour but assuming that it is for real is quite simply false. there's next to no room for opinions and their many justifications here: we can't presume too much about salmy's avatar or choice of words, and if there is one thing that the cover (the avatar) in his case betrays is the fact that he likes to poke fun at black metal fanboyism.
so please, whatever anyone wants to say about his avatar, manners, opinions, just make sure that you do that by taking into consideration the aforementioned facts, otherwise you're not informed enough to express an opinion that has any validity, regardless of it being favourable or not.

3. getting upset because of critics to dark tranquillity. i sort of doubt that anyone actually would, or that they have. i think the second round of flames (starting from post #70-something) was not motivated by that, but anyway...
that's just stupid. people should be able to come here and criticize as much as they want. and it's not even like inflames626 came here and said they suck and are nu-metal and should be killed and thrown into the sea. he said they haven't been very original after projector. to be honest, i kind of agree, projector was certainly their most original and creative attempt since skydancer. my opinion? yes. unsupported by facts? possibly. but i think the whole facts vs. opinion diatribe should subside around here: everyone's going on about other people being highly subjective while, well, we are so informed and down to earth. honestly, this is going nowhere. in the end there will be a point where the interpretation of certain facts is of the essence to tip the balance in favour of one opinion or the other. and it will be left to everyone of us to decide who brought up the most convincing arguments (which are a product of logic, i.e., not a mere sequence of sterile facts, and you first have to agree on the logic underneath to accept the whole package).
i, for one, thought that inflames626' argument according to which most songs on the mind's i have the same starting riffs (or whatever, i'm not a musician at all so don't flood me with words i'm not going to understand ) was pretty solid. why hasn't anyone tried to think of a rebuttal to that instead of, say, suggesting he should listen to tmi more? this is what i think separates an argument apart from just any comeback: you add your thoughts trying to "prove" a point. granted, it won't be a mathematician's or a laywer's "proof", but it'd be food for thought and at least an attempt at a debate.
you see, when i discuss some topics with my friends in real life i hardly ever have to resort to asking for evidence. i mean, if there were easy evidence available you'd figure we'd have gotten to it by now. no, we are clearly discussing uncertain topics which are more or less subject to opinion. sometimes one can find the other's reasoning convincing, other times this won't happen. there is reference to facts, but they're not used to hit each other on the head like with a rubber yak. try to use similar criteria here, it's gonna get us farther then questioning the other guy's sources over and over or looking like arrogant little pricks by praising our own grasp of all mundane things.

4. thread ownership. this part i think should be settled if we just stopped misusing the word "ownership". i agree that this thread is inflames626's own creation and it would be nice and happy if he could finally talk about what he wants (although i'm not sure what that is at the moment) with those who want to discuss with him. he can also ask the others to refrain from posting, and we already covered the part about the protection of his actual messages.
this is, however, not the content of the right of ownership over property, at least not applied to the whole thread. ownership would mean people are forbidden to interfere (in the thread, again), whereas they're not. ownership would mean if this thread is taken away from inflames626 (by me, for instance), then he would have the right to either have it back or be refunded, whereas he doesn't. and so on. so please let's forget ownership, trespass, battery, theft, libel and slander. be ambitious and go for genocide.

 

[Inflames626]

i just read the whole thread once more trying to identify where exactly things have started going downhill. as much as i would like to start posting ontopic replies, this is going to prove a bit tricky until i understand what the topic currently is. i'm taking this chance to list some of the main issues brought up by the discussion so far, in order to better clarify to myself - and hopefully others - where we are and where we can go from here.

1. threads about in flames. the reason they are so criticized around here has nothing to do with in flames being a different band than dark tranquillity, in flames (maybe) getting commercial, or the subject being generally off topic. the actual point is that new in flames, their music, their latest record and a possible nu-metal or otherwise mainstream decay of the band have been discussed before about a hundred of times.
this poses somewhat of a problem when it comes to accepting new users that - as their first action coming here - start a new thread about this overly-beaten subject. part of this problem is that some (admittedly rather vague, of late) principles regarding thread consolidation would require that when a lot of threads discussing the exact same subject come up in a short period of time they get merged together in one thread on the subject, so that (among other reasons) the first page of the forum is not clogged up with a dozen similar titles, pushing back and sending to oblivion threads on different topics. another side of the issue is that 90% of the regulars around here have already voiced their opinion on r2r and in flames more than once, and they would likely just desert the thread because they'd lack the motivation to repeat the same opinions all over again.
as everyone can easily see i almost never merge threads anymore, especially when there have been more than a couple of replies on them. this is for the twofold reason that (a) there is not enough activity around here to justify such draconian measure when it's obvious that the thread starters are just unaware of their threads redundancy; (b) it's been a while since real troublemakers have visited this place and i sort of trust everybody who posts here to have some standards in their behaviour, so that the occasional "stray thread" won't become an annoyance anyway. if i feel people are crossing the line - i say to myself - i can always close it as a means to communicate the rather elaborate concept of "baf!".
it is undeniable that, even in the circumstances described above, there is a tendency to greet a newbie posting about in flames with a thinly veiled "fuck you". however, this is not to be seen as mortal offense that should be washed away by slaughtering the offender's family with a rusty pickaxe. the odd "oh, no, not that again! bugger off!" is part of some users' personality: one can be more or less inclined to agree or participate, but - in my opinion - it shouldn't be taken seriously at all. in fact, after the first air-raid of benevolent flames, even salamurhaaja got back to replying in a very civilized, and shall i say docile way as soon as the discussion went down the kmfdmkfmdkfmdkfmkdmfdfkmdkkdwhatstheirface way.
it can happen that when walking up to a company of friends and saying something that inadvertently upsets them, some might get a little more vocal about it while other just keep quiet waiting, as it were, for the other shoe to drop. this is because of each individual's character and it usually gets solved by explaining each other.
i think we should stop debating the validity of this thread in the light of its original being about in flames. now it's not, and nobody cares enough to want it to get back to the original topic. if inflames626 is interested in knowing what others here think about r2r he just has to ask and i will dig for older threads on the subject myself and provide him with the link. that's all there is to it.

2. avatars. to make it - hopefully - clear once and for all: many communities online and chat programs have been sort of invaded in the past couple of years by users who are on average much younger and much less experienced than those who were previously the "typical" forum or messenger dwellers. partly because of their age, they are also quite close to popular music and juvenile lingo. this goes far beyond the simple typing "u" instead of "you" or "k" instead of "ok", and it branches off in a thousand different directions depending on the sub-culture of choice. in particular, those who are taken by a black metal frenzy (either serious or pretend black metal, or so i gather), kindly assisted by some of their musical mentors, devised a whole range of words (and their distortion) to signify that they belong to a rather exclusive and - of course - totally meaningful group. they actually have some funny antics such as claiming that all that is entertainment and happiness is wrong and stuff. needless to say, these people have become the object of some intense mockery on the part of casual black metal listeners, non-black metal listeners, and actual black metal listeners who are just in for the music but don't give a shit about the image. so it has become rather popular on boards online to put up - either occasionally or always, it depends - a fake "black metal fanboy" persona to humour those who are really way into it. aside from more psychological connotations of this phenomenon, it's safe to say that both taking picture of oneself with a stupid but intense expression, or corpse-paint, and using distorted words like tr00 and grim and l33t, are all only examples in irony. there is nothing serious about it. everyone is allowed not to appreciate this kind of humour but assuming that it is for real is quite simply false. there's next to no room for opinions and their many justifications here: we can't presume too much about salmy's avatar or choice of words, and if there is one thing that the cover (the avatar) in his case betrays is the fact that he likes to poke fun at black metal fanboyism.
so please, whatever anyone wants to say about his avatar, manners, opinions, just make sure that you do that by taking into consideration the aforementioned facts, otherwise you're not informed enough to express an opinion that has any validity, regardless of it being favourable or not.

3. getting upset because of critics to dark tranquillity. i sort of doubt that anyone actually would, or that they have. i think the second round of flames (starting from post #70-something) was not motivated by that, but anyway...
that's just stupid. people should be able to come here and criticize as much as they want. and it's not even like inflames626 came here and said they suck and are nu-metal and should be killed and thrown into the sea. he said they haven't been very original after projector. to be honest, i kind of agree, projector was certainly their most original and creative attempt since skydancer. my opinion? yes. unsupported by facts? possibly. but i think the whole facts vs. opinion diatribe should subside around here: everyone's going on about other people being highly subjective while, well, we are so informed and down to earth. honestly, this is going nowhere. in the end there will be a point where the interpretation of certain facts is of the essence to tip the balance in favour of one opinion or the other. and it will be left to everyone of us to decide who brought up the most convincing arguments (which are a product of logic, i.e., not a mere sequence of sterile facts, and you first have to agree on the logic underneath to accept the whole package).
i, for one, thought that inflames626' argument according to which most songs on the mind's i have the same starting riffs (or whatever, i'm not a musician at all so don't flood me with words i'm not going to understand ) was pretty solid. why hasn't anyone tried to think of a rebuttal to that instead of, say, suggesting he should listen to tmi more? this is what i think separates an argument apart from just any comeback: you add your thoughts trying to "prove" a point. granted, it won't be a mathematician's or a laywer's "proof", but it'd be food for thought and at least an attempt at a debate.
you see, when i discuss some topics with my friends in real life i hardly ever have to resort to asking for evidence. i mean, if there were easy evidence available you'd figure we'd have gotten to it by now. no, we are clearly discussing uncertain topics which are more or less subject to opinion. sometimes one can find the other's reasoning convincing, other times this won't happen. there is reference to facts, but they're not used to hit each other on the head like with a rubber yak. try to use similar criteria here, it's gonna get us farther then questioning the other guy's sources over and over or looking like arrogant little pricks by praising our own grasp of all mundane things.

4. thread ownership. this part i think should be settled if we just stopped misusing the word "ownership". i agree that this thread is inflames626's own creation and it would be nice and happy if he could finally talk about what he wants (although i'm not sure what that is at the moment) with those who want to discuss with him. he can also ask the others to refrain from posting, and we already covered the part about the protection of his actual messages.
this is, however, not the content of the right of ownership over property, at least not applied to the whole thread. ownership would mean people are forbidden to interfere (in the thread, again), whereas they're not. ownership would mean if this thread is taken away from inflames626 (by me, for instance), then he would have the right to either have it back or be refunded, whereas he doesn't. and so on. so please let's forget ownership, trespass, battery, theft, libel and slander. be ambitious and go for genocide.

Thou art the voice of reason!

A few concerns:

1) As far as anyone selling out, Flames, R2R, or any other concept, I think a case (albeit weaker than Flames) could be made about DT going crappy London underground crapola club music with "Haven". No one talks about Haven much here that I've seen, probably because it was such a glaring departure in quality from Projector that people sweep it under the rug. I bet in the IF forum people do just as much DT bashing. Who cares what the topics are, again, if they are kept concise to their own little corners and I'm not "thread" raiding to prove my point to everyone? Again, I'm basically taking a defensive stance, digging in my trench, bellowing out my opinion through a megaphone, and defending against the onslaught. The only difference between this place and the death forum is the background font. Equally valid discussions are possible anywhere, that's why there's an off-topic place on all boards. Why do I not go there? I've hallowed out this little niche as "my" place on the board, and, while Rahvin's right about being compensated for ownership, I think everyone would agree that my personality raises the most stink 'round these parts, and hence keeps the thread alive. Most everyone has been amused by it, entertained by it, or charmed by it, and I take that as a rather dubious distinction or honor. If they think negative thoughts about me, just contact me in one of the three ways below and we can sort it out off board. As far as me contributing my initial R2R comment to other threads, why should I? There's enough space for everyone, and I don't want to be lost in a sea of anonymity and old posts. Rahvin can just delete my thread later if he likes. All these gentlemen (women?), Teebs and the Helloween guy included, have turned out to be very intelligent folks, and if they want to keep in touch they have three platforms to do it with. If he chooses to delete my thread, it wouldn't really bother me, as some embarrassing, childish antics on both sides have come out.

2) Avatars was the weakest part of my argument. But, this was in reply to the "troll" comment. And again, if you don't want a label, don't wear the cover that generates the stereotype. By not having an avatar, Salad could have missed the entire barrage, and the whole thing would have been over. His thoughts would be enough to make him stand out in forums to those in congruence with his ideas, if they're committed enough to seek him out. Again, avatars are useless stylizations. I've considered putting up my CD cover, but I haven't, because that would break the austerity of my views on this. Aside from that, do you see most politicians wear clown suits when they debate a point? No, their ideas are supposed to carry the day.

3) About DT and music in general. Opinions are formed by interpretations of facts. Why do I think most DT sounds similar? Because it's grounded in the same things that have haunted all bands since Iron Maiden, which is in musical terminology: the galloping riff, the endless double bass lines, the Obituary-esque rawrssss, the minor third harmonies and melodic lines, and most things being in DT's case E minor (C# actually for them, because they're tuned down). If you play guitar, metal especially, note how many riffs are based on either E (open low string) or A (5th fret low string) and you'll begin to see how depressingly similar all of it is. These are the facts that back up my opinion on DT. Iron Maiden in DT clothing is still Iron Maiden. Could I do a better job? No. Are they still a great, rockin' band? Yes. Is Damage their heaviest and best effort? Yes, heaviest, and just under Projector in terms of quality.

4) Ownership and interfering in the thread. Many public things are still considered private. A private owner's club is his club, even though it is publically patronized. Same here. My thread is my thread, even though it is publically patronized. The bar owner may pay rent to a landlord, as I "pay rent" so to speak (not literally, but for the argument) to ultimate metal to use this space to express ideas. Even though the bar owner's property is technically the landlord's, his club is his own for the day-to-day purpose of doing business. Same here. If ultimate metal wants the space back, I'll give it to them. But for all practical purposes, my thread. It's already beginning to die a bit the less combatative I become. As far as the thread being taken away, I would have a right to contest the action. The owners own the space, not the ideas, and this thread is largely my ideas, hence, largely mine.

 

[Inflames626]

"It's so...beneath me." Love that quote, btw.

But first, I'll answer your question.
I listen to "three chord grunge" because there's music to it. There's some good tunes to grunge music. Part of me being "open minded to music" is trying out and liking different music.

Aaron, please further explain the "It's so... beneath me" in more detail.



Good for you.




Now, how has "a pithy argument piss you off"?

Quick one to finish this off. Rahvin's much more interesting.

Music is pitch and rhythm put to a beat or timing. As far as being open-minded, I've better qualifications than anyone in this thread for "trying out" music (you, after all, don't even play). If you're so open-minded, and everyone else is here, why is R2R so soundly bashed when Trigger sounds a lot like old IF and Anders does some of his best melodic singing there instead of going "rawwwwwrrrrrrrr! The galllerrrrrrrryyyyyy!" Flames has basically done nothing to sound "nu-metal" except rather poppish choruses (in Pinball Map, which during the verses is a really fuckin' heavy tune), and the use of less complicated rhythms (not talking about Oaken Throne anymore).

Most old school metallers consider grunge and simple music beneath them, from Zack Wylde and Dime to Dave Mustaine and Slayer. Zack, for him to be such an uber-shredder, was seriously wrankled that Grohl wrote part of Down to Earth. And yet, Zack, being the musician that he is (he can play Rhoads, for Gods sake), is more entitled to his opinion because he's more intimately aware of music than most. At the same time, he should be more tolerant of Grohl because he's more educated in music and more exposed to its nuances. However, he's not, because he's found what he likes. In this case, his "open-mindedness" in music has reinforced his "closed-mindedness" in taste. Same with me. I admit metal's stagnant, I admit it's boring and rather comicbookish, mundane, and easy to play compared with acid jazz. But I still like it and nothing else. Why? I hate the "in-between" dissonant sounds of jazz. Proving my opinion right there, and right there my knowledge of music has simultaneously reaffirmed and broadened my opinion to be even more steadfast.

It's beneath me because my musical toolbox is bigger than any three chord grungers, and eventually they will level-off and be limited by their musical ability, whereas mine will go a "shade" farther in the same way that my old instructors can go a million times past me. What makes me and a three chord grunger different is I'm striving for more...they're content to remain grunge and say "we don't need no stinking theory!". That's about as intelligent as a first-grader telling their parents he doesn't need to read to make a living.

 

[Arch]

Thou art the voice of reason!

A few concerns:

1) As far as anyone selling out, Flames, R2R, or any other concept, I think a case (albeit weaker than Flames) could be made about DT going crappy London underground crapola club music with "Haven". No one talks about Haven much here that I've seen, probably because it was such a glaring departure in quality from Projector that people sweep it under the rug. I bet in the IF forum people do just as much DT bashing. Who cares what the topics are, again, if they are kept concise to their own little corners and I'm not "thread" raiding to prove my point to everyone? Again, I'm basically taking a defensive stance, digging in my trench, bellowing out my opinion through a megaphone, and defending against the onslaught. The only difference between this place and the death forum is the background font. Equally valid discussions are possible anywhere, that's why there's an off-topic place on all boards. Why do I not go there? I've hallowed out this little niche as "my" place on the board, and, while Rahvin's right about being compensated for ownership, I think everyone would agree that my personality raises the most stink 'round these parts, and hence keeps the thread alive. Most everyone has been amused by it, entertained by it, or charmed by it, and I take that as a rather dubious distinction or honor. If they think negative thoughts about me, just contact me in one of the three ways below and we can sort it out off board. As far as me contributing my initial R2R comment to other threads, why should I? There's enough space for everyone, and I don't want to be lost in a sea of anonymity and old posts. Rahvin can just delete my thread later if he likes. All these gentlemen (women?), Teebs and the Helloween guy included, have turned out to be very intelligent folks, and if they want to keep in touch they have three platforms to do it with. If he chooses to delete my thread, it wouldn't really bother me, as some embarrassing, childish antics on both sides have come out.

Haven was discussed a lot here on this forum, not on "your" thread. People felt there was no need to regurgitate old information, much like another "RtR" thread you find anywhere on any metal forum.

2) Avatars was the weakest part of my argument. But, this was in reply to the "troll" comment. And again, if you don't want a label, don't wear the cover that generates the stereotype. By not having an avatar, Salad could have missed the entire barrage, and the whole thing would have been over. His thoughts would be enough to make him stand out in forums to those in congruence with his ideas, if they're committed enough to seek him out. Again, avatars are useless stylizations. I've considered putting up my CD cover, but I haven't, because that would break the austerity of my views on this. Aside from that, do you see most politicians wear clown suits when they debate a point? No, their ideas are supposed to carry the day.

Politicians don't wear clown suits, because they want to be taken seriously. Just about every regular poster here on UM jokes around, as well as DT band members posting here being funny. An avatar is just an avatar and Warwick's old avatar was just plain damn funny.

3) About DT and music in general. Opinions are formed by interpretations of facts. Why do I think most DT sounds similar? Because it's grounded in the same things that have haunted all bands since Iron Maiden, which is in musical terminology: the galloping riff, the endless double bass lines, the Obituary-esque rawrssss, the minor third harmonies and melodic lines, and most things being in DT's case E minor (C# actually for them, because they're tuned down). If you play guitar, metal especially, note how many riffs are based on either E (open low string) or A (5th fret low string) and you'll begin to see how depressingly similar all of it is. These are the facts that back up my opinion on DT. Iron Maiden in DT clothing is still Iron Maiden. Could I do a better job? No. Are they still a great, rockin' band? Yes. Is Damage their heaviest and best effort? Yes, heaviest, and just under Projector in terms of quality.

I remember Niklas Sundin stating somewhere in an interview that "We're just another Maiden rip-off" or something to that effect. Of course, DT doesn't sound EXACTLY like Iron Maiden and DT doesn't sound EXACTLY like other bands, although some do sound close. DT, in my opinion, are just standing on the shoulders of giants.

4) Ownership and interfering in the thread. Many public things are still considered private. A private owner's club is his club, even though it is publically patronized. Same here. My thread is my thread, even though it is publically patronized. The bar owner may pay rent to a landlord, as I "pay rent" so to speak (not literally, but for the argument) to ultimate metal to use this space to express ideas. Even though the bar owner's property is technically the landlord's, his club is his own for the day-to-day purpose of doing business. Same here. If ultimate metal wants the space back, I'll give it to them. But for all practical purposes, my thread. It's already beginning to die a bit the less combatative I become. As far as the thread being taken away, I would have a right to contest the action. The owners own the space, not the ideas, and this thread is largely my ideas, hence, largely mine.

There are many many differences to your analogy.

First, the manager or employees of a private club can refuse service to anyone for any reason. Guess what? Anyone is welcomed to post here, like it or not. Their posts WILL stay.

Second, this not a private club, this is a community. An online community to be exact. I don't claim to "own" a particular community swimming pool, do I? Do I "own" an area of my city's park? No.

Third, you are the only person I have ever encountered on any forum to claim that they "own" their thread. It's ridiculous.

 

[Inflames626]

Haven was discussed a lot here on this forum, not on "your" thread. People felt there was no need to regurgitate old information, much like another "RtR" thread you find anywhere on any metal forum.



Politicians don't wear clown suits, because they want to be taken seriously. Just about every regular poster here on UM jokes around, as well as DT band members posting here being funny. An avatar is just an avatar and Warwick's old avatar was just plain damn funny.



I remember Niklas Sundin stating somewhere in an interview that "We're just another Maiden rip-off" or something to that effect. Of course, DT doesn't sound EXACTLY like Iron Maiden and DT doesn't sound EXACTLY like other bands, although some do sound close. DT, in my opinion, are just standing on the shoulders of giants.


There are many many differences to your analogy.

First, the manager or employees of a private club can refuse service to anyone for any reason. Guess what? Anyone is welcomed to post here, like it or not. Their posts WILL stay.

Second, this not a private club, this is a community. An online community to be exact. I don't claim to "own" a particular community swimming pool, do I? Do I "own" an area of my city's park? No.

Third, you are the only person I have ever encountered on any forum to claim that they "own" their thread. It's ridiculous.

If everything's already been discussed, Haven, R2R, etc, what's left to discuss? Considering there are no musicians here to give me their advice or rantings, what could you possibly contribute to me?

I don't know who Warwick is.

Standing on the shoulders or being redundant? It's the same principle as even though there are R2R posts here, I'm just adding another. Either there's room for redundancy, or there's not.

I stop posting to this thread, you stop posting to this thread. Because the argument would cease and, secondly, as you said, there are so many R2R threads here, why continue to beat a dead horse in this one? I am the lifeblood of this thread. My thread.

This forum is the private property of Ultimate Metal. Like a landlord, they can stop anyone from posting (banning). And, like a club owner, I'm "renting" this space from them. As long as I rent it, it's my space, and you patronize it.

 

[Arch]

Quick one to finish this off. Rahvin's much more interesting.

Music is pitch and rhythm put to a beat or timing. As far as being open-minded, I've better qualifications than anyone in this thread for "trying out" music (you, after all, don't even play). If you're so open-minded, and everyone else is here, why is R2R so soundly bashed when Trigger sounds a lot like old IF and Anders does some of his best melodic singing there instead of going "rawwwwwrrrrrrrr! The galllerrrrrrrryyyyyy!" Flames has basically done nothing to sound "nu-metal" except rather poppish choruses (in Pinball Map, which during the verses is a really fuckin' heavy tune), and the use of less complicated rhythms (not talking about Oaken Throne anymore).

Most old school metallers consider grunge and simple music beneath them, from Zack Wylde and Dime to Dave Mustaine and Slayer. Zack, for him to be such an uber-shredder, was seriously wrankled that Grohl wrote part of Down to Earth. And yet, Zack, being the musician that he is (he can play Rhoads, for Gods sake), is more entitled to his opinion because he's more intimately aware of music than most. At the same time, he should be more tolerant of Grohl because he's more educated in music and more exposed to its nuances. However, he's not, because he's found what he likes. In this case, his "open-mindedness" in music has reinforced his "closed-mindedness" in taste. Same with me. I admit metal's stagnant, I admit it's boring and rather comicbookish, mundane, and easy to play compared with acid jazz. But I still like it and nothing else. Why? I hate the "in-between" dissonant sounds of jazz. Proving my opinion right there, and right there my knowledge of music has simultaneously reaffirmed and broadened my opinion to be even more steadfast.

Zakk Wylde complains about a lot of things. He acts like a snob and have an ego problem, much like you. God, Zakk is so into himself and his band, BLS in Ozzfest last year. I even heard him say, "I would like to thank the BLS 'chapter' of ... and BLS 'chapter' of ..." as if there's a fan club and convention of BLS fans like Trekkies. Hah!

Fine, Mr. Wylde may not like Grohl, but one guitar god does, Tony Iommi. If you weren't well awared, Dave Grohl, Serj from SOAD, Billy Corbin of Smashing Pumpkin, and many others worked with Iommi on his solo album.

Your knowledge this and your knowledge that. Where in your GIT textbook tells you which music is better than the next? Does the key/chords/mode/scale make one music BETTER than the other one? Are you an uber-music-theory god? Do you think there are other people, with even MORE musical background (such as training) than you, that loves all kind of music?

I think our friend, InFlames626 has a serious case of the "elitism".

There isn't a clear definition of the term 'music'. There's even one reputable source that says music is very similar to noise; I'm paraphrasing.

It's beneath me because my musical toolbox is bigger than any three chord grungers, and eventually they will level-off and be limited by their musical ability, whereas mine will go a "shade" farther in the same way that my old instructors can go a million times past me. What makes me and a three chord grunger different is I'm striving for more...they're content to remain grunge and say "we don't need no stinking theory!". That's about as intelligent as a first-grader telling their parents he doesn't need to read to make a living.

What does it matter if a grunge musician's toolbox has just a pencil, while your toolbox has pencils, crayons, and a marker? A grunge musician's artwork and your's can be just as amazing as any artwork in a museum.
"Oooh look. Have more tools than you."

Again, you have your head up your ass along with your music theory books:

NOTE: Music theory book not shown. Covered by neck and head.

DISCLAIMER: Those images are a JOKE. Do not ingest them. Dial 9-1-1 if you are having a heart-attack from being offended and pissed off by them.

 

[Inflames626]

Zakk Wylde complains about a lot of things. He acts like a snob and have an ego problem, much like you. God, Zakk is so into himself and his band, BLS in Ozzfest last year. I even heard him say, "I would like to thank the BLS 'chapter' of ... and BLS 'chapter' of ..." as if there's a fan club and convention of BLS fans like Trekkies. Hah!

Fine, Mr. Wylde may not like Grohl, but one guitar god does, Tony Iommi. If you weren't well awared, Dave Grohl, Serj from SOAD, Billy Corbin of Smashing Pumpkin, and many others worked with Iommi on his solo album.

Your knowledge this and your knowledge that. Where in your GIT textbook tells you which music is better than the next? Does the key/chords/mode/scale make one music BETTER than the other one? Are you an uber-music-theory god? Do you think there are other people, with even MORE musical background (such as training) than you, that loves all kind of music?

I think our friend, InFlames626 has a serious case of the "elitism".

There isn't a clear definition of the term 'music'. There's even one reputable source that says music is very similar to noise; I'm paraphrasing.


What does it matter if a grunge musician's toolbox has just a pencil, while your toolbox has pencils, crayons, and a marker? A grunge musician's artwork and your's can be just as amazing as any artwork in a museum.
"Oooh look. Have more tools than you."

Again, you have your head up your ass along with your music theory books:

NOTE: Music theory book not shown. Covered by neck and head.

DISCLAIMER: Those images are a JOKE. Do not ingest them. Dial 9-1-1 if you are having a heart-attack from being offended and pissed off by them.

You're putting an inordinate amount of time and effort into this.

Tony Iommi may have originated metal, but he's hardly a decent guitarist, and the NWOBHM led by the likes of Judas Priest put a technical edge on music that was rapidly getting boring by 1980.

Why are technical musicians better than non-technical ones? They make non-technical ones obsolete. They can do everything the grunge-ites can, do it better, and surpass it.

Why put up with redundant designs?

SOAD is annoying and quite unheavy. Same with RATM. Put in some double bass, some 16th note triplets, and some ostinatos over a sequence of changing tonics. All this stuff, as before said, is unoriginal and not new, but it makes the metal everyone loves...the 80's kind.

They can't. And yet Tom Morello's supposedly a "genius".

Unheavy, unangry, unaggressive pussy-"metal".

If Bullet with Butterfly Wings was the best heavy Corgan could churn out, maybe someone should introduce him to some Crowbar, for a fundamental lecture in heavy. Speaking of a whiny ass, even Sharon Osbourne shit on that little pipsqueak when she stopped being his manager, because he was so difficult to work with...and she puts up with her two kids! I remember some old issues of GW in his "lesson" column...same with that dipshit of Godsmack...I didnt learn anything I hadn't already learned...why waste paper on them when Friedman, Petrucci, Dimebag and Wylde can show you the same plus more? Or the contributing editors who transcribe the songs?

Why are competent musicians better? Because they eclipse incompetent ones. If you try your very best and play like Kurt Cobain, fine. If you thumb your nose at it...you deserve the limitations of your craft.