Downtuning

[NvmbrsDoom5]

So on another thread I noticed this quote from one of our fellow forum members, Oinkness, that I thought was interesting....

Originally posted by Oinkness-
Always stay in E standard. Downtuning is for people who can't make decent riffs in E Standard.

Now reading this quote by itself, it's hard to tell if there's any sarcasm or tongue-in-cheek intent here. But I've heard some people state this same thing over the years, so I get the impression that it's a somewhat popular belief.

While it has been debatable at times when discussing certain bands or styles of music (such as the glut of Korn 1-finger-chord detuned bands that popped up in the mid-late Nineties), I don't think that generally you can consider downtuning as a means of somehow being able to make up for a serious lack of decent riff-writing. As many of you know, Novembers Doom tune down to B-Flat. This was not a device we utilised because we were unable to write decent riffs or songs in standard tuning. Not all songs we play are based in that particular key (B-Flat) anyhow. I think alot of bands use lower key tuning as a means of being able to explore more options notewise. It's true that certain riffs just sound better in particular tunings, but E standard isn't the "be all end all" of tunings either. Many decent (and daresay great) riffs were written and played in lower tunings, most likely because that's just the particular key in which it sounded proper. "Sabbth Bloody Sabbath" has a great riff in it, a classic, that I don't believe would sound as effectual in a higher or lower tuning. Can anyone really say that a riff like that, for example, can be considered not as "decent" because they chose to tune lower than E to play it?

It's unfortunate that things like seven-string guitars wound up with a particular stigma attached to it, due to it's association with the aforementioned nu-metal contingent who, many of them, put them to "not so good" use. Having a wider range of octaves and notes to be able to utilize in songwriting should be a good thing, much like how playing an 88 key piano is going to offer more than playing a 61 key, and so on. I bought a seven string guitar in early 1992, long before Korn and nu-metal reared it's ugly head. Being able to come up with new chord configurations, and being able to add an additional lower octave into the guitar arrangements we already had was a real blessing. Nowadays, I prefer to play six string baritones because they're more comfortable and suitable to my needs. Anyhow...

Point is, I just really think it's a misconception about songwriting and playing if people really feel that downtuning somehow means that it's a mask for poor writing. I've never really felt that a riff turned from "shit" to "decent" simply because it was played in a lower key. But, sometimes a riff that might be more commonly used in standard tuning can take on new life in a lower tuning. I don't think this is a bad thing though. Decent riffs aren't, or shouldn't be, measured by what key they're in, whether standard or detuned or whatever, but in how they move you and connect with your musical tastes. If you're not a fan of music that's played on a detuned guitar, that's your personal taste. My roommate is one of those people who constantly says "give me standard E tuning, that's heaviest, I'm sick of these detuned guitarist, etc. etc.".....meanwhile a great many bands he enjoys employ downtuning LOL So I dunno, it's just a mentality that I cannot take seriously because basically, any mentality that involves some sort of limitations on musical experimentation or writing just doesn't jibe with me.

Anyhow, this isn't something I take personal offense to or anything, I just thought it was kinda interesting and wanted to hear other people's thoughts on this matter.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Originally posted by Oinkness-
Always stay in E standard. Downtuning is for people who can't make decent riffs in E Standard.

also

Downtuning such as drop D is for people who suck at making decent riffs and just want quick powerchords.


Wow... What a bold and ridiculous statement to make. So I guess we suck then? I'm surprised at you dude.

I'll leave it at that, seeing it wasn't originally said here.

 

[affinityband]

is this is from my sig? I will happily post the whole damn lecture he gave me. I would quote the whole thing but its too damn big.

 

[dan of bereavement]

dude, we tune to B always, and i have to say that has no bearing in where i write, as i usually write in piano or a keyboard tuned to E, I think downtuning just adds cool harmonies/low end that death metal, and doom need! that above statement is kinda gay! but perhapse it was in a sarcastic way.

it's all about the mood, and anything else is second to good writting!


2 cents

 

[Novembers Paul]

No no no, no need to start any sort of crap here. It's just a statement like that hits us close to home. We droptune to B flat, and it's all for the ability to play more complex chords, not the opposite. Oinkness has always been cool with me, and I've never seen him go off like that in that original thread, and I'm just pretty surprised is all. He's a fan of ours, but slams musicians who do basically what we do. I'm just scratching my head here...

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Yeah, I want to state that in all honesty, I wasn't posting any rant against Oinkness at all. Like I said before, he certainly isn't the first person I've known to say that they're not into downtuning or drop-tuning. I just think that you cannot generalize it the way he did. It's quite true, alot of people DO drop-tune in order to make playing chords more easy and simplistic for themselves. Like I'd said in my first post, that really came to the forefront with the nu-metal bands of the '90s, whom I'll agree didn't do much on the guitar that I personally feel was very challenging (though again it must be said, there were exceptions). We use drop-tuning as a way to be able to create more interesting chord shapes that aren't as possible using standard tuning. It's kind of hard to just explain it in words here. If you sat down and watched us play a song it'd be easier to understand what I'm saying. But the point is, we don't use it so that we can just play a bunch of one finger chords lol Actually at times having us play in down-tuning can make certain riffs and chord movements MORE tricky for us...

I don't think downtuning, drop-tuning, or using seven string guitars should automatically be put under any blanket statements that indicate it's sole use is for simplicity and lack of ability. I'm sure Oinkness, and alot of other people who think like him, aren't necessarily negating what it is we do. I'm sure alot of people don't even realise exactly how we're tuned, because our riffs aren't (I believe) really simplistic and cheap.

Anyhow, my point of this thread wasn't to start any battles or arguements, merely to point out to people who think like this to realise that downtuning and drop-tuning, etc., can be very useful and worthy tools in making music and doesn't automatically mean you've got a deficiency as a guitarist/writer. It all depends on the individual and how they choose to use it.

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

For the album after the upcoming, novembers doom should uptune above E, just to FREAK everyone out

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Haha well yknow, there's songs where we are rooted alot in the key of F, because that's what our fifth string (generally the "A" string) is tuned to. So alot of songs we play are rooted a half-step higher than E anyhow.
Also like I said before, on this new album we have a couple of songs that we wrote and played in standard A-440 tuning. Why? Because it just sounded right in that key *shrug* Songs like "If Forever" (from To Welcome The Fade) was written and performed in a weird kind of open A tuning. I'm always messing about with different tunings and stuff. I think that's the Jimmy Page influence on me!

 

[BrandonS]

All I'll say is that the fact those quotes are still going around shows the stupidity of (affinityband) who is still spreading them. No, this was not a lecture to YOU, dude, it had nothing to do with you except you came in, spammed, and made it near impossible for anyone to understand. The original context was a thread for a beginning guitarist, I'm not going to say "well you just picked up a guitar, why not try GBEADG tuning?" And when talking in context about drop D, I wasn't talking about November's Doom, I was talking about bands like Korn as you mentioned, or the hardcore groups that only play powerchords and breakdowns.

And the first quote, I was talking standard tunings obviously. Downtuning for a beginner would be a bit pointless and make it almost impossible to learn the notes properly, especially if reading and learning them from a book. Downtuning into lower standard tunings isn't really necessary for a beginner and it produces the same chords and everything, just in a different lower key. I never said I didn't like downtuning, my favorite bands are doom bands. Do you tune to Bflat standard or what? I don't guess it really matters what your tuning is, like you guys said, you don't play hardcore and powerchord nonsense, so I don't know why you took such an offense to those out-of-context quotes.

 

[Lionfrost]

A oneliner by Rodney King comes to mind.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

All I'll say is that the fact those quotes are still going around shows the stupidity of (affinityband) who is still spreading them. No, this was not a lecture to YOU, dude, it had nothing to do with you except you came in, spammed, and made it near impossible for anyone to understand. The original context was a thread for a beginning guitarist, I'm not going to say "well you just picked up a guitar, why not try GBEADG tuning?" And when talking in context about drop D, I wasn't talking about November's Doom, I was talking about bands like Korn as you mentioned, or the hardcore groups that only play powerchords and breakdowns.

And the first quote, I was talking standard tunings obviously. Downtuning for a beginner would be a bit pointless and make it almost impossible to learn the notes properly, especially if reading and learning them from a book. Downtuning into lower standard tunings isn't really necessary for a beginner and it produces the same chords and everything, just in a different lower key. I never said I didn't like downtuning, my favorite bands are doom bands. Do you tune to Bflat standard or what? I don't guess it really matters what your tuning is, like you guys said, you don't play hardcore and powerchord nonsense, so I don't know why you took such an offense to those out-of-context quotes.

Speaking for myself, I never took offense to it, I think I made that clear. Also one of the first things I said in my original post was that there was possibility of the quotes being taken out of context, I knew this from the start.

Just for the record, I will say this again and make it more clear to everyone....my whole post was NOT directed with any negativity towards Oinkness. It was merely those out-of-context quotes that I used as a means to bring up a discussion about beliefs that alot of people have towards downtuning, drop tuning, etc. Like I'd said, I've heard many people say that they had issues with those tuning methods, and I was just addressing it in general and stating my point of view on it. As for stirring up any kind of past arguement that I was not aware of between Affinity and Oinkness, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention with this.

I'm sorry that I even specifically pointed out that I got the idea for the discussion from Oinkness specific comments, as it wasn't really even necessary. I just wanted to get different people's perspectives on this issue because I always found it interesting to see how people perceive this sort of stuff, much like the debate over drummers using triggers, using keyboards in metal, and so on. I realise that Oinkness doesn't mean any negativity towards a band like ours with his statements, but I HAVE heard other people make those kinds of statements in regards to bands such as ourselves, so that's why I was curious to see what some of the people who post on UM thought about this.

So anyhow, let's keep this one peaceful guys, it's really not that big of a deal lol

 

[BrandonS]

I think Downtuning is great if you've got the knowledge and time to do it... The only thing I don't like about it is, I play in E Standard, and most bands are trying different tunings and I don't think my guitar could handle downtuning as far as you guys do, so there's no way I could ever learn your songs unless I learn it in E Standard... For me, downtuning would probably mean buying a pack of heavier strings and tuning them to BEADGB. That probably sounds easy enough for you guys but that means I'd have to either order them on the internet or drive an hour plus to find a guitar store, then there's the matter of stringing the guitar.. Then the strings get rusty in about a WEEK and the whole process must be repeated! I bought one pack of acoustic strings for my acoustic and they went rusty right after I finished re-recording all the acoustic parts, which was a very short time you know. Plus I wrote most of my songs in E Standard, except one that is drop D so it'd probably be easier to have 2 guitars if I ever experiment with tuning in that way. I don't think you can use the light .010 electric strings for B Standard? Then there's the matter of doing that with bass, hahah.... my bass at the moment can't handle B tuning, as it is too loose. I haven't replaced the strings on it since I bought the thing and they're pretty thick.

 

[affinityband]

At the end of the day when it comes to music with me nowadays i dont pay much attention to each seperate insturment but rather the whole thing. It doesnt matter to me if the guitars are simple or whatever as long as the final product is enjoyable, it shouldnt matter. For example with a band like Tool (alot of people have strong, strong dislike for them. I dont) each musician is so damn important to the band that it wouldnt work without one of them. Alot of people complain about the simplicity of Adam jones' playing, yet no one could ever play it like he can as theres so many little intricacys that people miss out and it would never, ever be neccesary to make it say, 'Dream theater/Symphony X complicated'. Fact is, Bands need different things. Down tuning shouldnt be taken as a fact of lack of technical ability.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Yeah I can understand the difficulty when trying to learn other people's material when you have a guitar that's meant for standard E tuning. I struggled with it for several years when I first joined ND, because at that time I was very used to playing my Gibsons, and with 24.75 scale length, you have to use at least a .62 or .64 gauge E string to tune this low, and you can pretty much bet that you're going to have tuning/intonation problems unless you get a full, proper set-up every time you change strings. Unless you already own a strobe tuner and the proper tools, and know what you're doing, this can get pretty costly over time.
Both Vito and I are using baritone guitars, which have a longer scale length (around 28 inches) so tuning and intonation are much less of an issue, plus the strings have the proper tension, so that even though you're playing in B-flat, it feels much like playing in E.

That sucks that your strings get rusty so quick. I hate when that happens. Actually that happened on my acoustic too, after I'd finished recording the acoustic stuff on the new album, I put it in it's case and brought it home. Pulled it out a week later, and the strings were shot. There's probably measures that can be taken to prevent that from happening so quickly. I find that my bass strings (I play bass on the side) get rusty or mucked up pretty quickly, so often I try boiling them, because bass strings are goddamned expensive!

Overall, my feeling is that musicians should definitely explore different tunings, whether it's drop tunings or tuning to a lower key overall, because I think it helps expand your musical vocabulary somewhat. Things like drop tuning shouldn't just be a crutch for amateurs or lazy guitarists to play with one finger, it should be a way for people to try out new chord voicings and shapes, etc.

By the way, for anyone having a hard time finding good heavy gauge guitar strings, or curious about what gauges work best with their chosen tuning/guitar type, I'd be willing to help with any info I may have.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

At the end of the day when it comes to music with me nowadays i dont pay much attention to each seperate insturment but rather the whole thing. It doesnt matter to me if the guitars are simple or whatever as long as the final product is enjoyable, it shouldnt matter. For example with a band like Tool (alot of people have strong, strong dislike for them. I dont) each musician is so damn important to the band that it wouldnt work without one of them. Alot of people complain about the simplicity of Adam jones' playing, yet no one could ever play it like he can as theres so many little intricacys that people miss out and it would never, ever be neccesary to make it say, 'Dream theater/Symphony X complicated'. Fact is, Bands need different things. Down tuning shouldnt be taken as a fact of lack of technical ability.

Agreed. Sometimes the stuff that people will generally assume to be "simple" actually isn't all that simple, and vice versa. Over the years we've auditioned players who could play some amazing tehcnical stuff, but then when we'd have them try to play something of ours that was more "simple" and slow, etc., they'd lack the flow and touch required to play it well.

I'm all about the little "intricacies" as you mentioned, stuff that probably tends to get past alot of listeners and perhaps is more self-indulgent for the writer/player. Every time I've watched and listened to someone play one of our songs that they've tried learning on their own, I notice that alot of the little intricacies are lost or missing. But when you hear it back to back, with those little bits added in, then you realise how important they really are to the sound of the part. I give alot of credit to Eric (Burnley) on this note because he was really good at that and it was an integral part of his playing and writing. Very rarely did he just play simple chord patterns or riffs, there were always some little peculiar intricate bits that were thrown in there that made the parts more interesting and unique. I was always into that style of writing and playing, so when I saw and heard what Eric was doing, it made me want to play with ND that much more. For the record, I'd only used down-tuning very sparsely before I joined ND, but when I saw the way Eric utilised it, I found it to be much more interesting and challenging than I'd thought before.

 

[affinityband]

Yeah. Its a natural thing that develops and i hate the fact that people are ignorant to it when they think they hear something 'simple' but actually cant physiclly play it as well. It takes time, and a slow learning process, which(im not an inexperienced guitar player) i will sit there for a long time and practice the riff very slowly listening back to the original constantly and get it dead on.

 

[BrandonS]

My new guitar is a Schecter C-1 Classic! It's not a baritone so I probably couldn't get it to B Standard, eh?

 

[affinityband]

Of course you could(schecter is pretty much built for low tunings), but just get someone to set it up for you,. if you havent got me on ignore already ahahahaha.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

You could possibly get it tuned to that but you'd need some reasonably heavy strings and you'd probably want to have someone professional set it up properly for intonation and such, provided you cannot do it yourself.

 

[the_drip]

I've been downtuning to C-standard ever since I heard In Flames - Whoracle. Haven't tuned my Rhoads up since. ( I have another guitar in E -standard..but I don't care to write in that tuning)