Drum Overheads

[Trep]

These days, useful tools such as drumagog and Sound replacer make it so easy to get kicks, snares and toms sounding great with minimal effort. I think its safe to say that where possible most of us will do our best to get a great sound off the mic, acoustically, but its always good to know we have tools such as drumagog to fall back on, atleast this is my experience,

however, i was interested to see what types of proccessing, mic placement and mic choice people are using as overheads, Do you like to try an isolate Just cymabsl in your Overhead mix or do you like the whole kit vibe? What are peoples oppinions on mics aswell, Do you find a Great noticable difference between any average Behinger C2 or equivilant and the many differnt $500+ condenser mics out there.

See i got hold of a copy of the Producers edition of sacrament- Lamb of God and when listening to the stereo Drums track i found a great sampled kick with an amazing snare sound, but the Cymbals and room sound was simply amazing. There was alot of clarity and it sounded very bright however there wasnt an awful hiss that you sometimes hear. This inspired me to get working on my Drum Sound and investigate what other people are doing out there.

 

[colonel kurtz]

i would venture to say that the "hiss" you mentioned is comb filtering or some other nasty effect from tracking in an untreated room...if you throw up some good mics in front of a nice kit in a well-treated room with high ceilings, you're probably going to get some really nice OH/room tracks

that being said, there's a bazillion ways to to treat your OH's, and it pretty much depends, i guess, on what's up with the rest of the kit

if you're going for a natural/organic sound, maybe roll off below 100-150hz, boost the top end a little, and you're done. sometimes some real gentle compression with a pretty quick attack can help if the cymbals sound a bit too forward/harsh, but i'd avoid that if necessary.

if you're in a situation where you're programming drums, or are getting pretty heavy on the sample replacement, i say push the HP filter up a lot higher, because you aren't going to need(or want) the kick/snare/toms showing up in there.

 

[DestroyTheColossus]

I'd be interested in hearing where people are putting the overhead mics in relation to the drumset... how close or far... angled in or straight down... out to the sides or xy in the middle... etc.

 

[Wave_D]

For Metal or any other style I'm recording w/ a dense mix I usually try to get just the cymbals in the overhead mics. I try to get as close to the cymbals as possible but also try to avoid getting that washy sound you get when you are too close to the cymbals. Most of the time I'll point the mics outward to avoid the snare. I really depends on the room for how far away you can mic the cymbals before the room will kill the definition and bring other problems into play.

I cant stand when the Hi-hats are in the overhead's so I'll make sure whatever overhead mic is on the hi-hat side has the cymbals between the mic and the hi-hat to get the least amount of bleed. I'll put some kind of sound absorber's on both sides of the kit to grab as much of the reflections as i can off the walls that can let the hi-hat creep back into the overheads or cross talk between the overheads.

If I get all of those the best I can, and the cymbals and players are good. You really get a stereo image of the cymbals and I can move the close mic of the hi-hat wherever I want in relation to the cymbals with hardly any washing of the hi-hat. All I do from there is usually roll off some of the low end and maybe add some sizzle and leave it be. No compression unless it's really a bad performance. But I've seen some people do Parallel comp on the cymbals to get some extra decay on slower songs.

 

[derfbonker]

Overhead placement, for me, depends on how good the drummer and/or how good his kit is. If I know I am going to need rely on replacement (either due to bad playing or a bad sound in general) I try to get most of the kit out of the overheads, and use them more for cymbals. If we get a good drummer with a decent sounding kit, Its better to get a good overall sound in the overheads, and us the close mics to reinforce that. I always pay close attention to snare placement in overheads, and the overall balance of the cymbals. If a certain cymbal is too loud, I either move or angle the mic away from it. If the snare sounds like it is to one side or the other i move the closest mic away to help balance it out. The more you do it the better you get at it. Another thing I like is to get the mics as far away as possible from one another, This helps with phase issues, and give you a nice wide stereo image.

 

[Tommy Gun]

3 to 1 Rule. Done.

 

[colonel kurtz]

3 to 1 Rule. Done.

if only if was that easy...

anyways, something derfbonker touched on, and that i ALWAYS make sure happens, is that OH's are not only the same height above the kit, but also equidistant from the snare. if you can get them equidistant from both the kick and snare, that's even better...

 

[derfbonker]

I don't usually worry about the kick, because it HP most of it out, but you need to get that snare centered. I have actually used a tape measure before. The band really liked that! The commented on our attention to detail.

 

[Trep]

well these tips are all great. i think that i am doing most of it already. Most of my reordings ae of my own band or my own projects, so i am usually play on them, My Kit is a Pearl Masters Premium (maple) and i have Zildjian A custom Crashes and Sabian AA hats and Ride. I dont think the Kit is to blame at this point but mainly the room sound.

Heres my Room Specs, Your gonna LOL haha

Size: 6x10 room,
Walls: Rough Brick on 3 walls, 1 wall Half Plaster board half window
Ceiling: 3 meter high ceiling (plaster Board)
Floor: Carpet on concrete
Size: Rectangle

dont think there much more details.
From what i gathered these are some of the worst rooms to record in.
My only real other alternative is to record in a garage. Concrete, concrete, concrete,

Any suggestions on fixing my room hahaha? What types of rooms is everybody else getting the best results in

Thanks for the help

 

[colonel kurtz]

yea, that's about the worst room you could possibly get, but i've tracked shit before in a 7x7x7 shed behind my house...and i can tell you that where there's a will, there's a way

if you're down for spending a few bucks, get some panels of owens-corning 703, wrap them in burlap, and throw them up on the walls. if you wanna go cheap, cover the shit in blankets or sleeping bags or something. basically, with a room that small, you're going to want to kill off as much reflection as possible, and keep your mics as close in to the kit as you can get.

 

[Trep]

yea, that's about the worst room you could possibly get, but i've tracked shit before in a 7x7x7 shed behind my house...and i can tell you that where there's a will, there's a way

Does this mean the garage is a bad idea? haha

And what about the Flooring, I herd Drum Platforms even only a few inches off the ground can make al the difference

Another thing i as also thinking, Where abouts in the room should i focus on tracking, as in where should i place the kit

 

[schust]

i've been experimenting a lot over the last year with recording my kit. my room sucks and my kit isn't much better - so i think in that regard it's been a bit more of a challenge for me than say a big beautiful room with high ceilings and acoustic treatments.

i've tried a lot of different OH setups. save yourself a lot of headaches and toss the X-Y right off the bat. KA-CHING! space pair is where it's at - but unfortunately, spaced pair is almost a genre onto itself. meaning... there are a LOT of different little ways to set it up. my best recordings have come from placing the mics a good 2ft or more over each cymbal group (L / R) pointing down, somewhat angled away and the snare centered. there is NO one rule for this. it HAS to depend on the room and drummer. every situation is different. for example, i whack the hell out of my hat - and do not currently have an additional mic (or input on my mixer) to record the hat alone. so.. i depend on the OHs. too much hat in the OH is a major bitch at mix. the other treat i've had to deal with is having the OH's too low over the crashes and having to deal with that mess at mix too. if you have a drummer that hits hard - be forewarned. i can't tell you how much time i've spent dinking around trying to make them sound good because of an excessive hat - or crash that just saturated every last electron traveling down that mic wire. because my room is small (and low ceilings) - the cymbal crashes and hat tend to be a little louder, bouncing off walls, etc. this needs to be taken into considersation when you choose mic placement. the quality and size of the cymbals do too, really. a small dinky crash that's really bright needs to be isolated off in the corner, whereas a big beautiful, low toned ride needs to be accentuated by closer mic'ing.

one final note about samples and OHs. i always sample my kick, snare and toms. because my hat is always coming from my OHs, i personally don't want to cut below ~200hz and loose the 'clang'. that's important to me. so what happens? well, the toms, snare and bit of the kick make it's way into the drum mix. thankfully for me the snare compliments my usual "go to" sample with some nice low end, the kick is in there a bit, but doesn't really present an issue for me - but the toms have been a real headache. by cutting below ~200hz and leaving everything above - you get a real boxy, irritating sound that DOES NOT compliment the killer tom samples. i've mitigated this (sorta) by doing a very, narrow dip in the 300-500hz range. not perfect, but helps. moral of the story, if you can mic the hat, probably a good thing.

the best advice. experiment with your room. get to know it. figure out what sucks and what doesn't. i think it's a lot like getting to know your monitors.

 

[colonel kurtz]

hold up a second...this just occured to me...

is 6x10 in feet, or in meters??

 

[cobhc]

i've been experimenting a lot over the last year with recording my kit. my room sucks and my kit isn't much better - so i think in that regard it's been a bit more of a challenge for me than say a big beautiful room with high ceilings and acoustic treatments.

i've tried a lot of different OH setups. save yourself a lot of headaches and toss the X-Y right off the bat. KA-CHING! space pair is where it's at - but unfortunately, spaced pair is almost a genre onto itself. meaning... there are a LOT of different little ways to set it up. my best recordings have come from placing the mics a good 2ft or more over each cymbal group (L / R) pointing down, somewhat angled away and the snare centered. there is NO one rule for this. it HAS to depend on the room and drummer. every situation is different. for example, i whack the hell out of my hat - and do not currently have an additional mic (or input on my mixer) to record the hat alone. so.. i depend on the OHs. too much hat in the OH is a major bitch at mix. the other treat i've had to deal with is having the OH's too low over the crashes and having to deal with that mess at mix too. if you have a drummer that hits hard - be forewarned. i can't tell you how much time i've spent dinking around trying to make them sound good because of an excessive hat - or crash that just saturated every last electron traveling down that mic wire. because my room is small (and low ceilings) - the cymbal crashes and hat tend to be a little louder, bouncing off walls, etc. this needs to be taken into considersation when you choose mic placement. the quality and size of the cymbals do too, really. a small dinky crash that's really bright needs to be isolated off in the corner, whereas a big beautiful, low toned ride needs to be accentuated by closer mic'ing.

one final note about samples and OHs. i always sample my kick, snare and toms. because my hat is always coming from my OHs, i personally don't want to cut below ~200hz and loose the 'clang'. that's important to me. so what happens? well, the toms, snare and bit of the kick make it's way into the drum mix. thankfully for me the snare compliments my usual "go to" sample with some nice low end, the kick is in there a bit, but doesn't really present an issue for me - but the toms have been a real headache. by cutting below ~200hz and leaving everything above - you get a real boxy, irritating sound that DOES NOT compliment the killer tom samples. i've mitigated this (sorta) by doing a very, narrow dip in the 300-500hz range. not perfect, but helps. moral of the story, if you can mic the hat, probably a good thing.

the best advice. experiment with your room. get to know it. figure out what sucks and what doesn't. i think it's a lot like getting to know your monitors.

Wouldn't moving the OH mics up a bit help as far as getting less bleed from the toms, etc? Also I know maybe you have to whack the hell outta the ride or hats to get them prominent in the OH mics, but I've always been told it's better to hit the drums hard, and the cymbals soft, leaving them more dynamic, and possibly easier to control.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Wouldn't moving the OH mics up a bit help as far as getting less bleed from the toms, etc? Also I know maybe you have to whack the hell outta the ride or hats to get them prominent in the OH mics, but I've always been told it's better to hit the drums hard, and the cymbals soft, leaving them more dynamic, and possibly easier to control.

The higher the OH Mics (within reason), the better. It gives you far more control over the entire drum sound and provides you with a bigger room sound. But, it also means you need to close mic the Hat and Ride, NOT have the drummer hitting things differently than what he's used to. That'll just screw up the performance and tracking will take longer than anticipated. I believe that the Hats and Ride should ALWAYS be miced, for better control. Screw having to fight with comp in your OH's to get a happy balance of Cymbal hits and Hat-bleed. I'm not a fan of Comp on an OH track. I just don't feel it belongs there. I use some simple EQ on them. That's it. I try to get as little Hat and Ride in the OH tracks as possible.

 

[schust]

Wouldn't moving the OH mics up a bit help as far as getting less bleed from the toms, etc? Also I know maybe you have to whack the hell outta the ride or hats to get them prominent in the OH mics, but I've always been told it's better to hit the drums hard, and the cymbals soft, leaving them more dynamic, and possibly easier to control.

absolutely! i should have been more clear. the best results i've had is when the OHs have been HIGHER, not lower. lower = shite! even in a small room with low ceilings it's been better. even the tone from the hat/cybmals is better. not so harsh.

i'll finish out the current CD's worth of material with the same setup (no mic on the hat) for purposes of keeping the drums sounding the same throughout the album, and acquire another mic - more pres - whatever so the hat can be mic'd on future projects.

 

[Trep]

hold up a second...this just occured to me...

is 6x10 in feet, or in meters??

metres. im australian lol

 

[colonel kurtz]

yea, as soon as i looked under your name and saw you're an aussie, i figured it might be meters. that translates to roughly 18x30 ft., which is adequate enough for drum tracking...the room i was using before was 7x7x7 feet! talk about a nightmare...

 

[Trep]

yea, as soon as i looked under your name and saw you're an aussie, i figured it might be meters. that translates to roughly 18x30 ft., which is adequate enough for drum tracking...the room i was using before was 7x7x7 feet! talk about a nightmare...

wow thats tiny, how did you fit a kit in there
hahaha

i gave my garage ago, it sounded very good. I also want to experiment with some higher quality microphones

When i finish the mix ill post it up.

 

[colonel kurtz]

the drummer basically had to get back in the corner, and we built the kit around him...then i mic'ed everything as close as possible and got to work

of course it didn't sound GREAT, but i made it work, which was good enough for both me and the band