DT Forum Members (and their messed up relationships)

[Alfred]

Originally posted by Siren
in general terms i tend to agree with |ng, i see and respect mouse's points (it's more or less the way i sometimes see things myself), i disagree with hyena's "there's really no connection between the two" point,

Curiously enough, I'm quite agreeing with hyena this time, at least partially. I do think there is no connection between the two, except maybe a link of opposition, because, detaching from the specific parents-sons of gfs-bfs case, we're talking about two opposite processes, I think: building a relationship and breaking one. Hyena's problem |ng seemed to refer to is related, if I'm not mistaken, to a still-unbuilt and yet-to-build relationship, which requires, by itself, the presence of another individual, with a certain attitude and an (at least broadly) specific position towards her and the idea of relationship-building itself. The main problem of this part of the thread, on the contrary, is related to relationships that are not only built, but very strictly tied, so tied they become encaging. Erasing a relationship, any kind of relationship, or seriously cut it, can be an even more difficult process than building it, but one thing's for certain: it doesn't strictly require (except in very particular cases, which I dearly hope is neither of the aforementioned three) more than one person, the one that says: "I'm quit. The end." and gets (more or less metaphorically) out. So I think the two cases are not only different, but completely opposite, which makes the comparison quite groundless.

Originally posted by Siren
and i believe that just sometimes it seems impossible to the "encaged" one to change anything or get away from it..

This I can understand, I respect and I'm sorry for. But I notice you have used the term "seem" which makes me think you, too, agree on the fact that it's not something completely and factually true, even if sometimes the appearence is so pressure-bringing that it almost feels like it becomes truth out of that sheer pressure itself.

Originally posted by Siren
Edit: When you actually have some goals in your life and care about your future, and you know that if you leave home that future will be drawn out of the picture coz you'll have to fight for your everyday survival, then sometimes you simply _can't_ go (or don't want to, if you prefer it this way).

Yes, you don't want to because, anyway, that future you are fighting for is, in long-term reasoning, more important than getting away from everyday's fights and encaging. I respect that choice and I understand it's a full-of-suffering-and-pain one, I just agree on hyena on the fact that it, nevertheless, is a choice, and that an alternative, with his terribly high price, always exists, and that everyone, especially those people who everyday face that choice, should be completely aware of it.

Originally posted by Siren
It's easier for ppl on the outside to say "this is right" and "you have to do this"

I don't know if Hyena meant to say "you have to do this" or such things. If this is the case, I don't agree with her, because it's none of my intention to say anything about what anyone should or shouldn't do. One should more or less do what he/she chooses to, and the more the choice is awareness-filled, the more it should be respected. I'll never say "If you do this you are right", but I won't stop reminding "If you do this, and decide to pay the painful price that comes with it, the encaging will end. In any case, you have my deepest respect and sympathy, but this doesn't change the terms of the choice nor the size of the price to pay, anything you choose". this has nothing to do with a moral or even a rational jusgement about anyone's choice, it's just introducing everyone with what I consider the correct terms of the choice. Unfair as it might be.

Originally posted by Siren
Still, there is a leading light, there is a small hope that one can win some freedoms in "underground" ways, ie not by fighting, but by whatever ways will make their parents softer. Till the outbreak comes..

I partially agree, since I think there are spaces to move, to a certain extent, especially in sight of the self-building strategy you were talking about earlier, but for a couple of reasons I don't think this will soften, in the average situation, the emotional impact of the final outbreak. On the contrary, I fear it tends to make it worse and stronger and more shocking the more it's postponed. Maybe I am a bit pessimistic (but I have had direct example of close-minded people in my family, though not directly my parents, and they never got slightly softened with age and personal evolution), but I still think that the only light at the end of that tunnel is the other choice one, sooner or later, will have to take, and which, I completely, sadly and not-happily-speaking-from-outside-the-cage at all, agree, is, to quote Terry Pratchett, the light of a flamethrower

Originally posted by Siren
Sorry for the ranting.

You're welcome Hope no-one felt hurt because of my post

Alfred (the other ways we're taught to fear)

 

[mousewings]

Originally posted by Siren

Sorry for the ranting.

It wasn't "ranting" at all. The point of this thread is to express our feelings and opinions.

 

[Kovenant84]

Originally posted by mousewings
It wasn't "ranting" at all. The point of this thread is to express our feelings and opinions.

Exactly... thanks mousy... and thanks alfred, siren, and rahvin, for trying to make sense of that. I was a bit confused back there as to what the argument was about, but i think i've got it now.

~Kovenant

 

[Unregistereduser]

Relationships!!!!!



:/ Describes mine.

To bad I dont pwn at relationships like I pwn at everything else!

 

[|ngenius]

Well, it seems that my words have been misunderstood, so excuse me.

@Alfred: When I talked about Hyena's problem with that little italian (and there wasn't an intentional purpose of hurt her feelings or any other evil purpose, you know), I was not trying to do a straight comparison between both cases, but I tryied to instance my particular opinion about the difficulty of face the obstacles that come your way. Soooo, I can comprehend Hyena's feelings in her situation with that guy, and I tried to help her as well as others did the same. And right now, living the "calm" before the storm, it's easy to treat coldly the other people's problems.

Conclusion: Obviously, there aren't direct relations between Nick and Hyena's clearly different cases, and each case, even when we don't see it as a real problem for us, might have a significant meaning for all those people directly involved.

And yes, the tunnel has a lot of exit doors, most commonly called "chances" or "options", but you know, sometimes (often) the price that freedom sets is too high, and we would prefer not to choose.

The rest was brilliantly described by the most balanced dwarf I ever known, and that beautiful girl of the seven seas. They got the point perfectly, and there's just one thing left to say: you're chupi!


|ngenius.

 

[Alfred]

Originally posted by |ngenius
Well, it seems that my words have been misunderstood, so excuse me.

If I haven't understood, it's me who has to apologize

Originally posted by |ngenius
Hyena's feelings in her situation with that guy, and I tried to help her as well as others did the same. And right now, living the "calm" before the storm, it's easy to treat coldly the other people's problems.

*mumble*... basically yes, but I think it's part of the help business too. I mean, if by "treat coldly" you mean "trampling, are-you-so-blindly-idiot-to-not-see-the-answer-is-in-front-of-you attitude" I agree with you, since I don't have much sympathy for judgemental attitudes in themselves, so much more when the person under judgement is in an emotionally or mindly vulnerable state. But if you mean "lucid outlining attitude", I disagree, since I think this is a fundamental part of helping, as important and necessary as the sympathy-expressing one. When a person faces a problem and is under strong stress/pressure, he/she also has very high chance to be confused and to have a blurry-by-pain-and-stress vision of the situation, its development and its possible outcomes. Being, at least to a certain extent, out of the emotional storm puts the helper in the very important position to be able to analyze precisely and lucidly the terms of the question and be able to outline them effectively to the person who, to make a choice or decide a course of action, should need them a lot but is in a very hard, if not impossible, position to work it out by him/herself. Not to expose completely and honestly all the data and the reasoning upon them to the person in need means, to me, refusing him/her an essential part of the help he/she asked from us, and the more coldly and rationally-only this reasoning is done (which of course doesn't mean the elements of the reasoning itself aren't, very often, emotional entities, but one thing is the essence what you do, another one is the elements you work on) the better and more effective the help is. Of course, when you present the results of your reasoning, other very important elements enter the ring, such as carefulness, caution, attention and tactfulness, in different degrees according to the different person you're talking to, each one of them as important as the inner coldness of the previous reasoning, but this changes nothing of the great importance of the other stage: a light inside the tunnel is far more important than one in the end, in my opinion.

Originally posted by |ngenius
And yes, the tunnel has a lot of exit doors, most commonly called "chances" or "options", but you know, sometimes (often) the price that freedom sets is too high, and we would prefer not to choose.

...them

Originally posted by |ngenius
The rest was brilliantly described by the most balanced dwarf I ever known,

Don't bee too surprised: it's mainly a matter of barycentre's height

Originally posted by |ngenius
and that beautiful girl of the seven seas.

fish makes you clever

Alfred

 

[hyena]

Okay, I was just waiting to see when this would come up. It seems that being honest about something that shows a weak spot (case in point, my situation with that very stupid guy) really *is* as dangerous as it's made to be.

When I posted that story I had no idea it would become a starting point for, of all thing, implying that subsequently, in another discussion on another matter, I was trying to tell other people what they should do. You can see for yourself that this makes no sense and there's no connection. But of course once one shows a soft spot there's going to be plenty of vultures flying around and taking advantage of it to say whatever, related or not.

I thought that this place was one to genuinely express perceptions, without having to be afraid of deviated uses of one's statements. How grossly wrong.

I say something about how I feel about a particular individual, then I say something about my personal view on parent-child relationships, and the two get bundled together to call me, of all things, "a bunch of contradictions".

rahvin, I do not really agree on your analysis, as in I think that |ng and I were expressing different concepts: but, given that you might be right and anyway you wrote a decent, civil post, I invite you to observe how my first post was not offensive to |ng, whereas his reply was a personal attack, way similar to the "you've got issues" Ibsen wrote back in the time.

This kind of behavior is, of course, discouraging me from opening my heart and mind on here. I don't want to take any crap whatsoever for the only reason of having been straightforward.
I also don't think I'm alone in feeling that.

I invite anyone responsible for repeated twisting of the truth and cheap looking-for-a-fight behaviors to ask themselves whether they think they're doing something high and mighty - I can be the "fuck off" type, but I'm not one to turn inside out perceptions that have been entrusted to me.

And Alfred, thanks for understanding what I was on about.

h

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by hyena
rahvin, I do not really agree on your analysis, as in I think that |ng and I were expressing different concepts: but, given that you might be right and anyway you wrote a decent, civil post, I invite you to observe how my first post was not offensive to |ng, whereas his reply was a personal attack, way similar to the "you've got issues" Ibsen wrote back in the time.

honestly, i still don't see but the faintest trace of a personal attack in |ngenius' first post about you. he also over-explained the point later, specifying something i didn't find obscure from the start, i.e. that the connection between the two cases is that when something concerns you, you (wisely, i'd say) admit not everything can be taken down to a simple, cold, clean-cut level of decision, while when discussing other ppl's problems you seem to indulge in way too stern separations.
actually, i happen to disagree with this point of view (and with others |ngenius made, and with almost everything siren wrote), but i can't even get to the agreeing/disagreeing level - and i suspect others can't either - because i still find you're being overly conflictual and ready to jump at conclusion and shadows. now, since i know for a fact you're not that way and you don't usually resort to arbitrary arguments to prove your point - which i still think is the most valid expressed around here - i'm patiently waiting for the outburst of rage or whatever it is to pass and you start reasoning and communicating like the genius human being you are again.
to get back to the point one last (for me) time, i don't really think using a situation you yourself mentioned to discuss what can be seen as a cotradiction in your behaviour equals waging war. i do it all the time, with you and other ppl, and i hardly ever get accused of any crime. you also ought to take into consideration that - forgive me |ng - |ngenius' far from perfect usage of english sometimes results in him using a register which is clearly far below the one he'd use in his native language, and yet he tries to express pretty complex thoughts anyway.
if someone says:

|ngenius
I wonder how you know about your own lacks, about your own need of someone beside you, and you can't understand that there are people with different needs that they cannot fulfill by themselves.

it means to this reader |ngenius is pondering why someone who can recognize complex, interlaced problems in herself seems to skirt the issue when it comes to the other guy. if you assume this criticism is inherently evil, a personal attack or a trick to turn what you wrote against you, i think you're seriously misled and ought to at least ask ppl for explanations before jumping to biased conclusions.

this said, i'm out of this discussion. that you two guys manage to bicker so incongrously over something you don't even see that differently is something i put down to stress, lack of will to understand, and plain simple prejudice. since i feel none of the above, i have no intention to hit this nail again.

rahvin.

 

[|ngenius]

Ufff.

@Hyena: No one of my previous post was a personal attack, not even merely an attack, it's pretty clear. If I offended you in any way, please accept my excuses. That's all I can do.

@Alfred: I do agree. I think you got the point, and we (Hyena, the Chicken in Exile, and this robot) are expressing something so similar, defending quite close theories, and agreeing in several points. Of course, to treat someone with the required tactfulness doesn't imply to lie.

@Rahvin: Well, first of all, thank you for expressing here more than you pretended, especially considering that Hyena's someone closer to you than this catalan robot with a "far from perfect usage of english", hehehe. You're right, I use to adapt my english level to my spanish one, and possibly I lose precision when expressing myself.

So, thank you for your objective opinion.

Edit: I'm interested on all those disagreements you talked about, hope we can discuss them soon.


|ngenius (Oh, far from perfect usage, but improving...)

 

[hyena]

on the "i see the nuances when it concerns me, i don't when it affects someone else": lie. of course i, as any other sentient human being, have pondered for quite a long time the get-out-of-my-parent's-house move, and i reckon there are no straight angles on issues such as leaving your family. but EXACTLY because i have been through that, i am quite annoyed by inconclusive ambivalence: i think that, all in all, the problem can be summed up in clear terms, and i already did that in previous posts. i would think of myself as unfairly whiny if i wrote about all the second-guessing involved in the process: it is something that unavoidably happens, especially because parents try, one way or the other and almost always with good intentions, to guilt-trip kids about their stepping out. but, i say, a reasonable, mature individual should NOT let that kind of selfishness get to them: it's a part of growing up. now, i'm sort of proud of the process i have been through, and while i accept completely the equal dignity of a different and CONSCIOUS choice i will keep on saying that the bickering and the "it happened to me, i'm not responsible of anything" lines are pure bullshit.

as for the being afraid theme, we're dangerously close to "i have nothing to fear but fear itself" philosophy. if you don't take initiative because you're scared of the consequences, you should at least be honest and know you're being a coward. i KNOW i act like one in certain areas of my life, which i could mention if anyone is interested, and i never try to sell cowardice as sensitivity or even something worth receiving the consideration of thought.

h

 

[hyena]

Originally posted by |ngenius
Ufff.

@Hyena: No one of my previous post was a personal attack, not even merely an attack, it's pretty clear. If I offended you in any way, please accept my excuses. That's all I can do.

pretended, especially considering that Hyena's someone closer to you than this catalan robot with a "far from

Edit: I'm interested on all those disagreements you talked about, hope we can discuss them soon.


|ngenius (Oh, far from perfect usage, but improving...)

ok. excuses accepted. but, in your better interest, i will stress that calling someone "a bunch of contradictions" IS insulting.

as for rahvin giving the impression of not taking my side in the controversy (i still think he did, but apparently you interpreted his words in a different way), it is something that hurts me quite badly and we've been over that a thousand times (you see, if you want to know the "disagreements", ie you want the public airing of dirty laundry, there it is for you). but, as it goes, different perceptions of what sticking up for your friends means must be accepted, so i cannot really do a thing, EXCEPT say it's totally unstatesmanlike to show a divided front to the world. in this specific case i didn't even think we were doing that, but your words, |ng, discourage me.

i can just hear the choir of "who cares?".

h

 

[|ngenius]

@Hyena: That was all I can do, and I expressed straightforward my fair intentions. I've understood Rahvin's words, and I think he was impartial enough not to join into a discussion between people he consider his friends. He expressed a disagreement with my point of view, and also expressed his disagreement towards a too acid attitude totally unworthy of his "genius human being" friend. And THIS is actually a proof of friendship, imho.

Soooo, the answer is no, I'm not the president of a conspirancy against you, and I didn't try to insult/attack you in a conscious way (and I apologized if I did it in a non-intentional way), and that "bunch of contradictions" was not an poisoned arrow with your name carved on it. Please, trust me, and don't take this issue too far.

I won't say a word more about all this, I think it's pretty clear, and I wanna annoy nobody. If you have anything to tell me, you're quite welcome to pm me.


|ngenius.

 

[Siren]

Just some brief comments: What i was trying to do with my post, was to merely point out the feelings/state of mind of someone under pressure or so.
And yes, Alfred, i did use the word "seem" in purpose.

As for |ng, i'm glad you understood me, you shiny and intelligent robot.

 

[Kovenant84]

Not going to talk about anything today... maybe tommorow or on the weekend... just trying to save this from the third page right now...

~Kovenant

 

[Ormir]

No offence to anyone, but I think we have quite enough of these chat/personal feelings threads at the top. I find it's quite difficult to keep an eye on them all, and it's sort of stifling other conversation. I feel most comments could be restricted to a single one, whether it be this, or Real's "how are you feeling thread" etc.

 

[Kovenant84]

Sorry... thats probably why this one started to drop back. If it does again, I'll let it. Hehe... I guess i wanted to keep it because its the only thread I've ever started.

~Kovenant

 

[|ngenius]

Ormir's right, I guess it's so complex to manage threads, and that's why all these threads about feelings appeared. So many people miss the old "dreams" thread, it was the original, but it's a personal responsibility to maintain certain order when using the board's "services".


|ng.

 

[Thanatos]

a very gorgeus girl insisted on touching my bare foot today...what do you think are her true intentions?

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by Thanatos
a very gorgeus girl insisted on touching my bare foot today...what do you think are her true intentions?

trying to figure out if your foot bones are ok. she's your doctor.

rahvin.

 

[Thanatos]

not quite Mr. Detective, it's true I had a cut on my feet, but it was so little I could have done nothing about it yet she insisted on putting a band-aid on it...it's weird because I don't think people would normally want to touch strangers feet and I think I have stood awake for too long, since I'm talking about such important topics