yes I know that this place is in no way comparable to your mother's womb but it doesn't necessarily mean that you must waste your irritation on other people
Elitism/Advanced Music Listening/Long Post!
- Thread starter Till Fjalls
- Start date
yes I know that this place is in no way comparable to your mother's womb but it doesn't necessarily mean that you must waste your irritation on other people
Claire's Horror
sperm monster
demon talented
enduring iconoclast
Yes, very true. If you want to discuss the detriments of commercial aspects of music, then we can go into that.
It's always a topic that interests me. In a simplified comment, I'd say that compromising for the sake of commercial aspect usually hurts the artistic beauty. If something, such as music, is made solely for non-artistic purposes, like your example of the commercial jingle, it can be appreciated, but it cannot be appreciated as art. This could be fine for some people, but I, and this is solely personal, have trouble finding pleasure in it. And for that manner, if the "artist" is not being honest in the music, it loses something as well.I tend to see things from an artistic point of view, so my tendencies come in to play, hehe.
YaYo
whendaydescends.com
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So the original point.. if someone hits a lead pipe and does so in an artistic way (as an expression of something).. with concious thought about how to hit the pipe, how often, how regular, how loud, etc... then it is both art and music yes?Originally posted by TheLedTool
Yes, very true. If you want to discuss the detriments of commercial aspects of music, then we can go into that.
I tend to see things from an artistic point of view, so my tendencies come in to play, hehe.
And yes i tend to agree with the rest of your post. Though there is 'art' in commercial music, its just usually in more limited things (such as only vocals, as opposed to expression coming through every instrument). Doesnt suit the way i listen to music personally, but plenty of people who only want music that is artful in a single minded and easy to recognise way.
Misanthrope
Latin, NOT Mexican.
Originally posted by Till Fjalls
Lately I've been thinking a lot about music (oddly enough, I seem to think about it as much, or more than I listen, yet still get a similar satisfaction,....)and how we percieve it. This may explain the idea of Elitism to some extent, and how it works.This may be a little long winded, but I'll just jump right into it.
Why do we appreciate some bands, and think they are gods, but often dislike Pop music, or simpler, mainstream forms of musical entertainment? To put it simply, I think it has a lot to do with one's talent for listening.
With mainstream music, we are often exposed to simplistic tunes, with predictable arrangements, and simple melodies. Basically, you hear the song once and you can sing a long with it, or at least recall it pretty well.
However, take a more advanced piece of music like Yes-Close to The Edge. You go through it, but on the first listen, at any given point you are pretty much lost as to how far into the song you are, and you just can't recall how one particular passage has any relation to any previous ones. There is a lot of evolution, and it is simply much more complex than your average pop tune.
So what's the point? Well, with the simple pop tunes, it's cool on the first listen or so, maybe catchy, easy to tap your foot to...Which is fine. But after repeated listens, it's way beyond predictable, you know every little detail of the song, and it loses it's excitement. Because what is so exciting about something you are totally familiar with?
Now look at more complex tunes, let's say Yes again. Every moment requires your full attention to realize what is happening, and you still don't fully grasp what is going on. It's takes careful listening, and many repeated listens to understand fully what the song is doing, where it is going, and how it all relates. I don't know how many times I listened before I realized they were doing variations on a theme within the song....
The more complex material requires more brain activity. We are actively engaged in the listening, trying to decipher the song as a whole. Every new listen brings excitement, because you simply can't predict what comes, or what new things you'll pick up on because of the complexity. But with the pop song, you lose interest after a few listens, because the brain no longer needs to be actively involved in the listening...You just instictvely or habitually know what is going to happen next.
Which brings me to the point of Opeth and Elitism. What we see here is some who think of Opeth as gods, and others who seems them as mediocre, or what have you. The way I see it, Opeth are sort of a crossover band in some ways. The seem to be a perfect bridge into more complex music, despite being relatively simple.
Opeth's songs are long with many riffs-hence it requires many listend to fully grasps. That's a lot of riffing to remember in one sitting. Also, their riff lengths tend to be longer than most bands. Again, more brain activity, more active listening/remembering to catch on to the songs. However, the repeat riffs ad nauseam, rather than letting them gradually evolve, or adding slight differences to each repeat of a riff. Thus the listener gets a good feel for the riff during the course of the song-it is repeated enough for them to grasp and understand as a single entity. Though being able to relate it well to the rest of the song comes after repeated listens.
So I see them as a crossover band. They can appeal to more advanced musical listeners, (listeners who are able to quickly pick up and understand more complex material as opposed to someone who hasn't yet ventured into that territory). After all, the brain can only develop skills through learning and practice, and it takes time to be able to appreciate lengthy complex pieces. For some people, complex music isn't worth wasting their time on, because they simply don't understand it. Just like some people don't see the point in learning to speak Japanese. It makes no sense to them, and they don't care for it to make sense to them. And that's fine!
So this is where elitism comes from in my mind. It's the interaction of people appreciating music on different levels than others. Some people praise Opeth to no end-well, that's great if it works for you, but it doesn't make them the best. There may be a lot more out there for you to discover, and you'll laugh at your foolishness if you are ever lucky enough to find the music that takes you further than Opeth.
Then there are those who see Opeth as being too simple. Chances are they have more advanced listening skills, and Opeth's music doesn't stimulate the senses enough to make it interesting to them. If that is the case, imagine how they must view something that is less complex than Opeth! It comes across as shallow, predictable, and unoriginal in most cases. And in their own mind, they are perfectly fine with saying that this type of music sucks. Because it does pretty much nothing for them.
Therefore, I think Elitism is simply a case of being on a different musical plane than someone else.
And to those that bash Opeth and their fans, just try and appreciate the fact that everyone here is at a different level of musical listening, and what they are hearing in Opeth is just right at this particular time...Chances are it will change in due time. So just respect it in that manner....
So that's my little theory. Comments? Think I'm a retard?
Ps. You can recommend me some complex music of any genre, and I'd be much appreciative!
Thats a pretty souless fucking description of something that should come straight from the soul.
Read my lips people: play chess if you want to stimulate the brain, and leave all that crap at the door where it belongs because that might be complex and brain stimulating but is basically souless. In the end all that is fucking bullshit and some sentimental 3 chord songs express 10 000 more things than the stupid fucking pretention of black rose immortal.
Misanthrope
Latin, NOT Mexican.
Yes it does, otherwise is just masturbation of the ego or brainfuck bullshit to melt your thoughts into nothing.
Misanthrope
Latin, NOT Mexican.
Originally posted by Blackspirit
WOW!!! All my respect to YaYoGakk! Again you amaze
me with one of your posts! What you have written is
almost what I have thought, but still you have taken it
so much further, and I have actually learned something
today! This might be my all time favourite post on um,
ever.... Brilliant!
Great topic Till Fjalls! Really interesting to read this!
You brainless whore, never speak to me again.
demon talented
enduring iconoclast
Originally posted by YaYoGakk
So the original point.. if someone hits a lead pipe and does so in an artistic way (as an expression of something).. with concious thought about how to hit the pipe, how often, how regular, how loud, etc... then it is both art and music yes?
Yes, it is not impossible. I change from "it could be only loosely considered music" to "it is simply greatly unlikely to become art."
How's that?
Yes, the commercial aspects whenheavily impacted are very limiting to personal expression and therefore diminishes its capacity to become art.
Some 3 brain-cells pets express 10 000 times more with theirs face than you with your hateful dumb comments.
If you like 3 chord songs so much then you can find many of them INSIDE of BRI. Well maybe you could. But such a complex operation requires an additional healthy brain cell.
YaYo
whendaydescends.com
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If you're going to troll and try and pick fights, do try and at least make sense. Assuming maybe you are just ignorant take note of the comment "using to evoke emotions".
Simple songs and complex songs are different things. Different aims. Different uses. By comparing how well BRI achieves on the aims of simple songs you are making a big mistake, i could just as easily point out how a simple 3 chord song sucks because it has no major progression (and be just as wrong). Again proving the point that people confuse their subjective view (ie Misa likes more sentimental songs) with an objective view (that that makes sentimental songs somehow better than a song which tells a thousand stories). Just different ways of writing and listening to music.
And keep in mind that our emotions are chemical reactions (or something, whatever they are) created based on whats in our mind. Stimulating the brain in this conversation, was stimulating the brain in ways that stimulate emotion.
Your trolling is getting worse Misanthrope, you argue against things people dont even say, your not going to get people worked up like that.
You must be under some horribly misguided idea that she, or anyone else for that matter wants to speak to you.
Misanthrope
Latin, NOT Mexican.
So you are saying im not objective yet you refuse to see music from another point of view, a point of view that isnt a scientific bullshit angle? Listen go ahead but classical music is not on the mainstream because people is too dumb to understand it, is not on the mainstream because the people who make it THINK they are so much more fucking smart because they show off and often loose the point of things, much like how you and till fjalls are acting.
YaYo
whendaydescends.com
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Too dumb to understand it? Its underground because most dont want to spend the time listening (or learning to appreciate it, since there it requires different ways of looking at it than most mainstream). Many of them are capable of loving it, but they dont want to, arent exposed to it so they never realise its really there. Or are victims of societies misconceptions and never think to question them (ie metal is evil). And yes a really dumb person is more likely to lsiten to pop music or to complex music for simple reasons (ie metal because they can headband to it), but thats not the point is it. The point is most people could listen to either simple or technical music (or both), neither is better 'art', either may be more appropriate. (im getting sick of dividing things into strict 'complex' 'simple' music, because it goes against what i said earlier on in this thread, but i hope people can understand what im meaning)
And yeh, many people lose the plot with technicality, it becomes about technicality, not about art/expression. But technicallity also allows more expression of some things (like knowing how to make chords can allow you to more accurately represent your feelings).
I dont get your point. I listen to simple music, i write simple music a lot as well. I recognise that the some of the most emotional moments of Opeth for example, are very simple ideas. How am i losing the point of things?
Claire's Horror
sperm monster
not all people were born to love music, mate. most wouldn't be able to appreciate it not even how hard they tried.
Claire's Horror
sperm monster
just imagine it as if trying to love some other art such as sculpture or painting as intensely as you do it with music.
D Mullholand
[project closed]
quite radical. shall we go the dumb route and ignore that you've basically thrown all classical music into one bowl? even then you have to back it up with examples.
i realize that you have little patience with the general level of discussions here (which mostly end up with a 'zealots vs. it's-all-subjective-kids' stalemate, a few individuals notwithstanding), and because of your identity choice, you opt to yell out the 'indecent' thing. try to hang out where most people are smarter than yourself for a change - you'll find out that you'll want to read more than to post; and the discussions will lead you to new thoughts. works for me.
D Mullholand
[project closed]
true. one can only add that we have only one life and won't have the time to experience everything in the world - so i don't have a problem with people who have other passions in life and merely resort to using music as wallpaper. (useful music: familiar, inobtrusive, homogenic)
i don't like the way a bible-thumper kind of music fan uses it to form an isolated, conservative social identity for himself (more ego and fitting-in than a real passion). but, unlike Misanthrope
, i stay away from arguments with them, these days.
D Mullholand
[project closed]
here's a suggestion: why not see 'musical taste' as limitation, signifying either an embryonic stage of interest in all possibilities of music (what a true love of music implies), or a case of halted development - when the patient discovers something beyond 'usual' and is comfortable at that level, no desire of further exploration, no will to understand?
some make an error thinking that making any music that's superior to mtv wallpaper-pap is a radical achievement! to make something that stands out against the homogenic metal clique means almost nothing as well - anyway it's mostly done by adding a different influence (already explored with beautiful results in other genres) to the basic carcass - dressing up a corpse with stolen cloth in most cases. real music is which survives when compared to other real music, all genres.
when a group of people can see from the p.o.v. of all music, being familiar with all available possibilities and willing to accept the unfamiliar; and when they can agree on the definition of music - then it's possible to have a real discussion (share experiences and acquire a new understanding of a piece). in a real discussion, temporary emotional and defensive reactions to words and sounds can be discarded and you can actually think of music as objective, the difference in experience limited only by what you didn't manage to understand yet.
this will sound melodramatic, but when you see so many beautiful parts of the big world of music, local village authorities and idiots suddenly lose importance and you just throw them away, with so many better things to listen to.
some make an error thinking that making any music that's superior to mtv wallpaper-pap is a radical achievement! to make something that stands out against the homogenic metal clique means almost nothing as well - anyway it's mostly done by adding a different influence (already explored with beautiful results in other genres) to the basic carcass - dressing up a corpse with stolen cloth in most cases. real music is which survives when compared to other real music, all genres.
when a group of people can see from the p.o.v. of all music, being familiar with all available possibilities and willing to accept the unfamiliar; and when they can agree on the definition of music - then it's possible to have a real discussion (share experiences and acquire a new understanding of a piece). in a real discussion, temporary emotional and defensive reactions to words and sounds can be discarded and you can actually think of music as objective, the difference in experience limited only by what you didn't manage to understand yet.
this will sound melodramatic, but when you see so many beautiful parts of the big world of music, local village authorities and idiots suddenly lose importance and you just throw them away, with so many better things to listen to.
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