Ever wished UM.com had more black metal?

Originally posted by manuelgv
sellouts why?
they still sing about the cold dark north and that kinda stuff
I think you are just angry because not many people want a black metal forum
:)
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no, i'm mad because of the proliferation of posers in metal (bands, labels, and fans)
 
"Poserhood" all depends on the person accusing someone of being a poser. I think the only people that would think of others as posers are people that are too self important. If you understand that there are people to whom music doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot and who listen simply to have a casual backdrop to their everyday lives, you'll realize that they aren't posers, just casual listeners. I, personally, am not like that. I take pride in finding music thats more than just the accessable pop of the moment, but I accept that some people don't feel that way. I'm not usually inclined to be a friend of someone like that because we lack common ground, but I don't dislike them; I just think they're missing out.
 
Originally posed by MFH_Productions (ChristCrusher)
significant art is about conveying a message, not guitar wanking or big budget studio recordings.
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It's not about guitar wanking and big budget studio recordings. Sure, tr00 black metal bands "convey a message", but what is that message? "Evil, Satan, Grim, Necro"? You can convey as good a message of those things with a black piece of paper. It requires little skill, and does a nice job of conveying this message. So is that art? The question is: is the message worth conveying? And if it is is it something that has already been done to death? Why not find a new way to make music sound evil?

Art is a creative representation of something else. Without creativity, it is no longer art, and has become a mere copy. A band that has become a "traitor" (as you so insightfully put it) can be doing one of two things. If they are like Cradle of Filth, then they are catering to the desires of the masses, (masses who happen to care more about the image than the music). If they are like Emperor, then the band has actually found some creativity, and is producing something new. Tr00 black metal is just a rehashing of itself over and over. What a waste of perfectly good plastic (CDs).

People who are so ardent about creating and staying true to classifications (as you seem to be) have already become closed-minded to that which has no classification or doesn't fit their preferred classification. And a closed-minded person is in no position to talk about what art is or isn't.
 
funny stuff

Genre suck. Music is music, each band should be themselves and express themselves, not be forced to fit into what has come previously. Then after they create music you seek to classify this music (for communication purposes, the only reasons genre's are useful) by placing it in its closest match. So genre's expand, because its likely that many bands come along that dont really fit into their closest match...

Also genre's exist to classify things, they are words that are developed by people to group things together, they become genres because lots of people use said word/s. "Black metal" is just some words that have no meaning by themselves, their meaning is derived from the type of bands people use the words to describe. tr00 bands are black metal because people call them black metal, and since its commonly thought that Dimmu Borgir is black metal, then Dimmu Borgir is also black metal, thats how genres work. Genres also progress and change, punk isnt today what it was when it started, neither is rap or metal or jazz or anything, resisting this is just stupidity.

A genre only gains a specific meaning once enough bands come about under that genre.

I mean at the moment theres a whole branch of metal that doesnt really have a genre, im talking opeth, agalloch, novembre, etc etc... all the words used to classify them (progressive, melodic, death metal, etc etc) are commonly associated with things that these bands really dont fit into. But like that matters, the music is still there and the music is all thats important. The only difference it makes is that maybe a few definitions will be pushed again (ie progressive metal will encompass opeth type bands, as well as dream theater type bands), or a new one will gradually become commonly used.
 
Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
Methinks you haven't heard much black metal, and, personally, I'd say the ignorant have even less room talk than the the close-minded. So, why don't you run along and play with your Legos, kid?
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Way to be vague. I'm not really sure what makes you think so, but you happen to be wrong. I actually had an extensive black metal phase, which included "true," un"true" and "traitor" bands. I consider a number of types of bands to be black metal, many of which don't fit the "true" black metal label. I was only talking about the bands that are "true". By the very nature of the definition "true", a band must not progress musically, and must fit a narrow set of rules. I would call this uncreative: lack of options restricts creative ability.

If that's not what you're referring to, then why not specify?

P.S. It is horrible form to be pompous, pretentious and egotistical when you reply to someone.
 
It's not about guitar wanking and big budget studio recordings. Sure, tr00 black metal bands "convey a message", but what is that message? "Evil, Satan, Grim, Necro"? You can convey as good a message of those things with a black piece of paper. It requires little skill, and does a nice job of conveying this message. So is that art? The question is: is the message worth conveying? And if it is is it something that has already been done to death? Why not find a new way to make music sound evil?
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It is the form of musical expression that is chosen, and what is missed I think is that people into tr00 black metal really don't want it any other why, so why get on their case? I think that people that express their opinion such as yours are going to the level of those who you call "close minded". It is all expressing ones opinions on anothers views of music, wouldn't you agree? The message evidentally goes quite beyond Evil, Grim, Necro, etc. and I would have expected you to notice that. Ever read Darkthrone lyrics? Reasonably impressive, just as an example. And you say why not find a new way to make music sound evil, well you have been listening to too much Bartok ;) That is really a useless statement, because it is asking a genre to change. On to your opinions of progression in music....

Art is a creative representation of something else. Without creativity, it is no longer art, and has become a mere copy. A band that has become a "traitor" (as you so insightfully put it) can be doing one of two things. If they are like Cradle of Filth, then they are catering to the desires of the masses, (masses who happen to care more about the image than the music). If they are like Emperor, then the band has actually found some creativity, and is producing something new. Tr00 black metal is just a rehashing of itself over and over. What a waste of perfectly good plastic (CDs).
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So you believe there is no creativity in the truer black metal? I think running around in the forest acting like trolls and playing on drum sets that you probably deliberately broke is pretty damn creative, and it is how THEY want to convey their message. Sure the people of the genre often find creativity in large amounts blasphemous, but they have found their niche, and that is what matters to them. You strive on creativity in music, while they feed on the anger, sadness, and atmosphere that black metal brings to them. A waste of perfectly good plastic? Wow, you are objective, I think you are making quick statements. Heard any of the newer black metal bands coming out, or even ones that have been out for a while. Taake is an incredible blend of progressive metal and true black metal, and it works. Newer Darkthrone is even progressing. A new one man project called Old Path is taking Burzum and incorporating more folk into the music. To say that this music isn't evolving is saying that Opeth dosn't evolve.
Overall, I am dissapointed in your statements Joe :p If anything you are being just as closeminded as they are I think.
Art is emotion, and how the reciever relates to it. I believe that the connection between black metal and it's listeners is often stronger than many others.
 
Originally posted by Morningrise
It is the form of musical expression that is chosen, and what is missed I think is that people into tr00 black metal really don't want it any other why, so why get on their case? I think that people that express their opinion such as yours are going to the level of those who you call "close minded". It is all expressing ones opinions on anothers views of music, wouldn't you agree? The message evidentally goes quite beyond Evil, Grim, Necro, etc. and I would have expected you to notice that. Ever read Darkthrone lyrics? Reasonably impressive, just as an example. And you say why not find a new way to make music sound evil, well you have been listening to too much Bartok That is really a useless statement, because it is asking a genre to change. On to your opinions of progression in music....
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Well the "evil, grim, necro" thing was just a joke. I would seriously hope that some of them have gotten past satanism, (though I tend to not bother with the lyrics in music. Most of the time I don't like them.) I trying to narrow my field of discussion down to those bands which christcrusher was talking about. I was also not trying to condemn true black metal, (okay, so I got a bit riled up with the "waste of good plastic" statement), I was trying to tell him that the fact that music is an expression makes it neither original nor artistic. Good point with the Bartok thing; I am just sick of hearing the sound, I guess.

Originally posted by Morningrise
So you believe there is no creativity in the truer black metal? I think running around in the forest acting like trolls and playing on drum sets that you probably deliberately broke is pretty damn creative, and it is how THEY want to convey their message. Sure the people of the genre often find creativity in large amounts blasphemous, but they have found their niche, and that is what matters to them. You strive on creativity in music, while they feed on the anger, sadness, and atmosphere that black metal brings to them. A waste of perfectly good plastic? Wow, you are objective, I think you are making quick statements. Heard any of the newer black metal bands coming out, or even ones that have been out for a while. Taake is an incredible blend of progressive metal and true black metal, and it works. Newer Darkthrone is even progressing. A new one man project called Old Path is taking Burzum and incorporating more folk into the music. To say that this music isn't evolving is saying that Opeth dosn't evolve.
Overall, I am dissapointed in your statements Joe If anything you are being just as closeminded as they are I think.
Art is emotion, and how the reciever relates to it. I believe that the connection between black metal and it's listeners is often stronger than many others.
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Your description of true black metal has more to do with the appearance than the music. Also, art is not confined solely to emotion. I even gave you my definition from the start, (each person has his own definition, though). At any rate, I apologize for my inaccurate statements, some of them were made out of eagerness to reply to christcrusher (he sure gets under my skin). I suppose I should admit that what I said about my true black metal days stands. It was in the past. Since then I haven't heeded the genre much. Ah well.
 
Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
While it's true that language applies what are ultimately arbitrary tags, labels are used to symbolically express fundamental realities that are anything but arbitrary. If everyone woke up tomorrow and started calling elephants "giraffes," an elephant would STILL not be the same kind of animal as a giraffe. Similarly, even if people call Dimmu Borgir "black metal," it doesn't alter the reality that Dimmu are fundamentally different from the bands historically called "black metal." The rules of nomenclature give precedence to the original definitions and terms, so in an objective sense, Dimmu is outside looking in at black metal, regardless of what those who don't understand the historical development of the genre may think.
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And if you woke up tomorrow and said to yourself that we care, we STILL wouldn't give a flying fuck.
 
Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
"True" black metal has very little to do with musical considerations, it's almost a wholly ideological concept. It doesn't refer to a lack of musical "progression," but rather to a unity of ideological viewpoint. The fact that you automatically associate
"true" black metal with musical stagnation in itself is proof that you really haven't had much actual experience with black metal.
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Even if it's not directly associated with stagnation, I've found that most of the black metal thats "tr00" based on ideology doesn't vary from band to band, album to album, year to year. If you want ideology solely, why inflict the pain on your ears of listening to boring and, quite frankly, unpleasant "music." You'd be better off listening to some hateful moron rant on about the same shit that all the tr00 bands talk about.
 
Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
Still jealous of my superior intellect, I see.
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Yes, because I'll never understand why you think what you do is great and because I can't categorize bands as well as you, I'm just going to be missing out in life. Missing out on a bitter, hateful existance that perpetuates the problem you preach against instead of actually doing something worthwhile to fix it. Damn, I'm going to be sore over this forever.
 
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