Ever wished UM.com had more black metal?

[Elysian Blaze]

Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
I emphasize content and ideology over aesthetics (sound) because the former dictate the latter. The reality is that bands expressing similar ideaologies are probably going to have fairly similar sounds.

So, are you saying that a band who shares the same ideology as, say, Burzum, is bound to have black metal influences? I'm just wondering if you think that's a rigid thing, or can that rule be bent?

 

[YaYo]

Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
It really doesn't matter what order one writes lyrics and music in, you're going to have a generalized sense of the ideas you're expressing. The end result is the marriage of content and execution, the stages of the creative process itself aren't really relevant.

My definition of black metal is the one definition that is historically consistent with the growth and development of the genre, and is essentially the same definition used when the term "black metal" started being tossed about in the 80's. In that sense, it is THE definition of black metal (and I would argue that my definition is the only way to define the genre with any real continuity of meaning, other definitions either ignore the historical development of the genre or involve arbitrary and meaningless gradiations of aesthetic). In any event, I've never called Emperor or Immortal "traitors." Neither I nor any other serious black metal fan would call either band's later albums "black metal," and I personally happen to think those albums suck, but they suck on their own merits, not because they aren't black metal.

Sorry, was confusing your statements with MFH's earlier in the thread.

But anyway, Dimmu and Immortal and Emperor are all black metal because thats what they are most commonly known by. Sure they are rather different, even on some of the most fundamental things, but thats not the point. If you so desperately need a term to differentiate between the original and the new meaning of the word then do so... every other genre changes meanings and people accept it and move on, black metal fans need to do the same (ie, it just takes another adjective or something to differentiate, like "early 90's black metal" or something, assuming thats the era, im not too sure).

I happen to think Emperor are pretty brilliant on a number of things, most of which arent really worried about by black metal. (weird scales and harmonies). Dimmu i like the sound of but dont think its anything special at all (to get the dimmu sound just play everything as a minor chord ).

Im not really sure what this discussion or argument is about anymore...

 

[Till Fjalls]

Just like to point out:

1) It's funny how Ba'al and MFH/Christcrusher/Euronymous got confused as to being similar or the same person (refer to this thread, and another, which referred to them as being the same person). If something strays outside your own view of things, you often tend to classify them as being the same thing. Hence why metal is considered noise, or satanic, by many mainstream music listeners.

2) Musis as being an art form, is pretty much (as far as I'm concerned) is purely in the mind of the listener. Everything in life seems to be relaitve to what you ahve previously learned, and thus msuic is no different. I respect Ba'als defense to BM, yet I am sure I do not appreciate it on the level he does, since I haven't immersed myself in it to that level. However, to many other music listeners, it may mean nothing, and may seem far from being a credible art form.

In their own mind, everyone is right. That's the beauty of music. I don't disrespect Christians becuase I think their religion is one of the most ridiculous and unbelievable things I have heard....I repsect that they have found something that is important to them, because nobody knows what is right and what is wrong. It's all in ideology, and what society as a whole has been branwashed into believeing.

In short, I think arguing about this stuff is quite pointless, nevertheless, quite amusing.

 

[demon talented]

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
1) It's funny how Ba'al and MFH/Christcrusher/Euronymous got confused as to being similar or the same person (refer to this thread, and another, which referred to them as being the same person). If something strays outside your own view of things, you often tend to classify them as being the same thing. Hence why metal is considered noise, or satanic, by many mainstream music listeners.

Interesting point, but how did the dead bassist of Mayhem get involved here?!? Inevitably, we do tend to group people. Probably some underlying psychology to it...

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
I don't disrespect Christians becuase I think their religion is one of the most ridiculous and unbelievable things I have heard....I repsect that they have found something that is important to them, because nobody knows what is right and what is wrong. It's all in ideology, and what society as a whole has been branwashed into believeing.

I don't consider self-deception something worthy of aesthetic value, and I don't see why others do. Feel free to enlighten me why.

 

[Till Fjalls]

Interesting point, but how did the dead bassist of Mayhem get involved here?!? Inevitably, we do tend to group people. Probably some underlying psychology to it...

Do you mean guitarist? Varg was the bassist....Euronymous the guitarist. Anyway, in my drunkeness that's what I posted, as that was what I originally knew Christcrusher as in the glory days of the MM board...

I don't consider self-deception something worthy of aesthetic value, and I don't see why others do. Feel free to enlighten me why.

What is self deception exactly? it may decieve you and I, but it doesn't mean it isn't right. The entire world can't operate on the same level of thinking, or else we'd ALL believe exactly the same thing. The way reality seems to work, at least to me, is that everyone form s their own beliefs, and to themselves, those beliefs are roght, or at least hold a fundamental importance in their life. I live for music that I know many others don't like, so how do I have the right to condemn someone else for believeing that their belief/preference in music is superior?

We may not all state explicitly that we believe our music is "better" than wha others listen to, but in reality, we think this, at least to an extent. Or why else would we listen to it?

Sorry If I come off as being harsh, I'm tired and fairly inebriated. It's just that now I don't mind saying what I actually feel. Hope this answers some of your questions! (ahhh, the ever-dependable LOL smilie makes things seem much more light-hearted, doesn't it? )

 

[Till Fjalls]

Haha, the funny thing is, that LOL smilie(2nd smilie in my post) I referred to was not even the right one...Oh well, worse things have happened!

 

[demon talented]

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
Do you mean guitarist? Varg was the bassist....Euronymous the guitarist. Anyway, in my drunkeness that's what I posted, as that was what I originally knew Christcrusher as in the glory days of the MM board...

Oops. I tend to do that a lot.

And I'm tired.

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
What is self deception exactly? it may decieve you and I, but it doesn't mean it isn't right. The entire world can't operate on the same level of thinking, or else we'd ALL believe exactly the same thing. The way reality seems to work, at least to me, is that everyone form s their own beliefs, and to themselves, those beliefs are roght, or at least hold a fundamental importance in their life. I live for music that I know many others don't like, so how do I have the right to condemn someone else for believeing that their belief/preference in music is superior?

We may not all state explicitly that we believe our music is "better" than wha others listen to, but in reality, we think this, at least to an extent. Or why else would we listen to it?

1. Christians have a rather illogical view of many things. Divinity, for one example. Essentially, God is just a big human in the sky whose rather spiteful, but loves you too sometimes. So, humans are not only the divine's most important being in the universe (I hear an ego), he's also His pet too!

Also, hell is a laughable notion. Besides the idea of an almighty God being a bigot against those who aren't Christian, saying that even moral people will go to hell if they do not believe, their view of a damned place is pretty damn funny too. After all, you have very earthly torture - fires, all that. Although it's a bit surreal, I would imagine a punishment out of earth's existence would be far different than something a man could make a movie out of...

So it's inherently self-deceptive...but that's just a very basic. And if you don't think "logic" is objective enough, there's always more I can pull out of my ass (and still be more logical).

2. Many Christians say they believe, but really don't. How many self-professed Christians have actually read the Bible? I'm sure there's plenty. That's both hypocritical and self-deceptive in my opinion.

3. Comparison to music is not working, man. Religion isn't as basic as music. Religion is shoved down people's throats since they were born, and even in disbelief or non-belief, they can't escape it any place. Music may have its own advocates and can certainly influence people, but never nearly as much as religion does. To say religious belief is that subjective is also funny. If it was, I doubt millions of people would be holding practically the same exacty beliefs.

I don't have that big a problem with religion. Hypocrisy, I have a problem with. If you want to be a believer in the Bible, know what the goddamn Bible is.

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
Sorry If I come off as being harsh, I'm tired and fairly inebriated.

No worries. That wasn't nearly what I'd consider harsh.

 

[Till Fjalls]

Before I head off to to sleep:

I pretty much agree with what you've said about christiantity. However, I must turn something around on you:

Music may not influence people as much as Religion, but to some it is more important than religion could ever be. Many people find a reason to live through Religion, and others do through music. This is part of the reason I used the parallel.

And the idea of millions of people holding similar beliefs:
Why do you think pop music is popular? Because it is forced onto a large portion of society, and they blindly fall into the trap of assuming the most prevalent things in society are what is right, or "good".

In the same way, Christianity forced their religious ideals onto many cultures. If you enslave societies and force them to follow your belief for centuries, what can you expect but to end up with a society that has a large belief in the same ideals?

As far as I'm concerned, we should choose our own system of beliefs/religion. If you go to a christian school, you are taughtt hose beliefs and are influenced by them. However, if we were allowed to go through life with no preconceptions of life/afterlife, do you think Christianity would have such an influence in our world? I doubt it. Same goes for music, though people aren't exactly being enslaved or oppressed because of their musical tastes (though on some of these message boards, you might have to argue against this!).

The early years in life are the basis for learning, and if you are surrounded by Christianity or pop music, how can you expect the mojority of people to detach themselves from these supposed "realities"?

Either way, it doesn't mean anyone is right in the universal sense, if there is such a thing. The totally free-thinking individual holds as much meaning in his/her own belief as those who succumb to the mainstream whether it be partially or in whole.

And that's all I have for now! I shall return tomorrow.....

 

[R.I.P.2]

Ba'al, where can I find Miasma mp3's?

 

[demon talented]

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
Many people find a reason to live through Religion, and others do through music. This is part of the reason I used the parallel.

True, very interesting statement... It's hard to think right now. But I think putting a meaning of existence through music or art is still less self-deceptive than religion. Besides this, loving music will have an affect on your life... more than a basic idea of what is aesthically valuable. I don't think it can still match up to what religion generally does (with exceptions...) - gives codes for morals (behavior), gives thoughts of creation (the creation myth), tells how God works (affect view of what is natural), asks for dedication (spending time listening to people to justify what you're already supposed to believe), etc. It's not a fair comparison, in my opinion.

I think hear I can listen to it amicably, but it's generally more aggrevating when I hear people say atheism/non-belief/otherwise is the same as belief/religion/Christianity because it's very different. So, I already have mindset that would say it's not generally good to compare religion to other aspects of world view. I think generally spiritual beliefs have perhaps the greatest influence on behavior and thought processes than any other thing...

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
And the idea of millions of people holding similar beliefs:
Why do you think pop music is popular? Because it is forced onto a large portion of society, and they blindly fall into the trap of assuming the most prevalent things in society are what is right, or "good".

My big issue with pop music isn't the genre of music (although I don't personally like it). I think the bigger issue is it's not even well done pop music...

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
In the same way, Christianity forced their religious ideals onto many cultures. If you enslave societies and force them to follow your belief for centuries, what can you expect but to end up with a society that has a large belief in the same ideals?

Thankfully, there have not been holy wars due to millions of people liking Britney Spears...

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
As far as I'm concerned, we should choose our own system of beliefs/religion. If you go to a christian school, you are taughtt hose beliefs and are influenced by them.

I have a moral objection to spoon feeding religion to people who can't think for themselves yet (the young ones)... It should not be a forced belief.

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
However, if we were allowed to go through life with no preconceptions of life/afterlife, do you think Christianity would have such an influence in our world?

I want to isolate this thought. It's a very good one.

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
I doubt it. Same goes for music, though people aren't exactly being enslaved or oppressed because of their musical tastes (though on some of these message boards, you might have to argue against this!).

Music is open as religion is open - there are ways to find more about it, but they are not always so open. Those who DO find more and lose their ignorance are lucky or wise... to what extent of each, I don't know. But there are a lot of things I will realize, and I see others having the same ignorance... but I get that feeling "I figured it out, why can't you?" Some aren't "fortunate" to do so...

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
The early years in life are the basis for learning, and if you are surrounded by Christianity or pop music, how can you expect the mojority of people to detach themselves from these supposed "realities"?

Rather unfortunate.

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
Either way, it doesn't mean anyone is right in the universal sense, if there is such a thing. The totally free-thinking individual holds as much meaning in his/her own belief as those who succumb to the mainstream whether it be partially or in whole.

Not always. Ideally, the person does hold strong beliefs. Whether the ideal or not, people who are free-thinkers are generally more open-minded - and for the zealous few who aren't, at least more capable of being open-minded. You will have your zealots on any ideology, but non-believers are more likely to be thinking for themselves by nature.

Originally posted by Till Fjalls
And that's all I have for now! I shall return tomorrow.....

That was enjoyable. Thank you for the thoughts.

 

[Elysian Blaze]

Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
For Necromantia:

http://www.necromantia.tk

The links for the mp3s don't work, but thanks for the link, anyway.