Ever wished UM.com had more black metal?

[TyrantOfFlames]

Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
That you brought Cradle of Filth in the discussion as representative of black metal removes all doubt.

I brought it into the discussion as a deviation from black metal, not as black metal. Though they never were "true", it was a quick example.

 

[IanDork107]

Do you really think you're getting a lot out of life by wasting your energy on pointless hatred? I don't think "evil" is meritorious of any kind of following. It's just teen angst magnified and a waste of time, in my opinion. To me, there's a big difference between frustration and being evil pointlessly. Evil isn't an emotion, and the hatred and anger conveyed in "tr00" black metal is rather pointless in that it's generally unfounded. I think "evil" is a phase, just like the nu-metal phase that many kids go through. People that are "tr00" are just as closed minded to everything else as the mall-core kids, and the emotions are just as immature in tr00 metal as in nu-metal; they both are whiny and juvenile. If you're still into being evil and tr00 when you're 50 years old, let me know. I'll be fucking surprised. And if you are, let me know what you've done with your supposedly superior intellect, cause being hateful towards everyone won't leave you with many options.

 

[TyrantOfFlames]

Well in that case, I just don't care enough to continue arguing. So enjoy it, you win. Rub it in my face, if you want. Give me permission to go back to my Legos; I don't really care anymore.

 

[IanDork107]

And if you don't like ear candy, why the fuck do you feel so compelled to post at an Opeth board. They obviously aren't tr00 or evil, and aren't raw and underproduced either.

 

[IanDork107]

Well, have fun feeling smarter than everyone. I'll go along with Tyrant in not bothering with you anymore. It's obvious that you have a retort for everything, and it's obvious that I'll disagree with what you have to say. It's just not worth any effort. Someday you'll mature.

 

[-Desecrated-]

Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
"Evil" is an arbitrary concept. The ideals of black metal are deemed "evil" by mainstream society. The will to power, embrace of natural existence, and recognition of the validity of the nihilistic viewpoint embraced by black metal are antithetical to the views embraced by the dominant society, which prizes self-sacrifice, submission, conformity to arbitrary values and the belief in illusions of "meaning" and "purpose" in life. On an emotional level, yes, black metal does embrace hatred and anger. However, hatred and anger directed at the failure of the Western social construct is hardly "pointless," nor is it "whiny" or "juvenile" (though both adjectives fit YOU to a "t"). Black metal in this sense fits well within the context of art as social criticism.

Well.. I'd hate to agree with the 'black metal nazi' hehe, but you're absolutely right. I find it rather funny when people of no faith go around saying bands are trying 'too hard to be evil'. They're buying into Judeo-Christian morals without even knowing it.

 

[-Desecrated-]

Originally posted by IanDork107
It's just not worth any effort. Someday you'll mature.

Someday he'll mature?


So someone who doesn't share your opinion is either wrong or immature? I don't agree with everything Ba'al says but that doesn't make him immature. The fact that he can sit here and debate this with everyone intelligently would mean the exact opposite.


And Ba'al stop being such an egotistical bitch with your.. "superior intellect". Do us lower lifeforms a favor and drop the thesaurus. You pretentious ______. (Fill in the blank)

 

[demon talented]

One thing I don't get... you say black metal argues for the freedom of the individual, yet some black metal bands have Nazi affiliation? I would think the authoritarian nature of that political philosophy (not to mention the "militaristic" nature of black metal's own idealogy) would be far from advocation of individuals.

The Mayhem guy, Euronymous, himself said he was "anti-freedom," although it's clear he was an illogical idiot anyway. I just think it sounds rather contradictory. Perhaps you could explain?

 

[demon talented]

But isn't an authoritarian society with no "rights" stopping the strong and the weak from competing with each other? With a disadvantage in an authoritarian society (being on the lower end, in other words), you could have potential or have even realized potential and still not achieve that domination over the weak. Although it seems a society where it is purely equal opportunity seems rather unlikely (or impossible), an authoritarian society seems even worse than the constrictions of the normal societies we have now became it gives pure advantage/disadvantage to those who already have leadership. In a competition of strong versus weak, the strong is "ahead at equal." A breach of oppurtinies is far from any true concept of freedom for the individual, although it is an interesting way to look it at it.

 

[demon talented]

Generally, the strong would rise from the top in any form of government, given that the strong actually care to do so. Of course, that must be within the limits of government - whatever that may be. Obviously with an authoritarian government, that would much higher.

'More to the point, it is the very notion of "rights" in Liberal societies which limits genuine competition.' is a very interesting concept. I'll have to think about that one. The competition clearly changes from what it was before... there is clearly much more economical competition than ever before, which is less than the basic and more primitive physical competition (imagine wars fought without most of modern day technology).

I would say "Practical application is always a compromise." is certainly true (for larger theories). I have no way of knowing how much you follow into this ideology, although either way, you've argued rather objectively about it (I commend you on that, surely). It just seems a somewhat flawed look to me, that is all.


On the notions of the "true" nature of black metal, I think that there should be distinction for the music of black metal and the idealogy of black metal as it is clear there are underlying thoughts/ideals that loom in the hearts of our corpse paint wearing friends. The raspy vocals have been clearly associated with black metal, although I think the other work - particularly the minimalist guitar work - clearly comes into play with its sound. I am not an educated set of ears, so feel free to build upon the basis of what I'm saying.


By the way, lighten up about Ba'al's attitude. I'm sick of this immature arguments. Sure, he is somewhat pretentious. He acts towards you like the average Opeth fan looks at average nu metal fan - a feeling of blatant level of superiority in music knowledge and experience. He's clearly knowledgeable about music (not to mention, other things). Sure, he avoids keeping the UM board homogenuous, but that, I feel, is a good thing. I, for one, would like to learn from those who have greater amounts of musical knowledge than myself, although it does not necessarily mean I will agree.

 

[YaYo]

Its funny how you classify music based on the lyrics, yet most people in metal tend to classify music almost entirely on the music. Hence the conflict between your and other's opinions.

Personal taste is more dependant on taste in music, than taste in lyrical subject. Now since we are classifying for communication purposes, id say it was better to classify based on music content. Id also say that music and message should not necessarily be tied (ie just coz it sounds like black metal doesnt mean it has to have lyrics like black metal), this to me seems limiting and uncreative, i say people should choose the best music to represent their ideas, or the best lyrics to represent their music (or whatever, considering the different approaches to writing music).

hmm

 

[YaYo]

Yeh i have no problem with Ba'al, his opinions are well thought out and presented intelligently. I happen to disagree with his ideas but i am intrigued and seek to understand really where we are disagreeing on (or if we are both right, which is kinda possible in this situation).

 

[demon talented]

Yayo: I'm glad you joined the discussion. You make a good point. I think one of the differences of opinion here is the difference between vocals and music. Are vocals part of the sound (music) and lyrics something purely "extra" or separate or are the vocals separate from the music as well as the lyrics (which Ba'al argued in an earlier thread, referring to what is referred to as "melodic death metal")?

Also, (I restate) I think the ideology and the actual sound of black metal is part of what separates opinions of what is truly black metal.

 

[-Desecrated-]

Originally posted by TheLedTool
By the way, lighten up about Ba'al's attitude. I'm sick of this immature arguments. Sure, he is somewhat pretentious. He acts towards you like the average Opeth fan looks at average nu metal fan - a feeling of blatant level of superiority in music knowledge and experience. He's clearly knowledgeable about music (not to mention, other things). Sure, he avoids keeping the UM board homogenuous, but that, I feel, is a good thing. I, for one, would like to learn from those who have greater amounts of musical knowledge than myself, although it does not necessarily mean I will agree.

Bleh, I was just poking fun at him. Besides, I had defended him in that same reply. I had to bust his balls a bit to balance out the ammount of ass-kissing.

 

[demon talented]

Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
I would argue that vocals must be understood as merely a part of the overall sound, and cannot, by themselves define a genre. I've always found the idea that any band with growled vox is death metal to be ridiculous; by that logic, Iron Maiden would be opera...

Yes. I think that's a logical way of looking at it, although it has been quite abitrary how much vocals are taking part of the sound of the music.

 

[IanDork107]

Originally posted by -Desecrated-
Well.. I'd hate to agree with the 'black metal nazi' hehe, but you're absolutely right. I find it rather funny when people of no faith go around saying bands are trying 'too hard to be evil'. They're buying into Judeo-Christian morals without even knowing it.

I don't buy into Judeo-Christian morals, my personal experiences have shaped what morals I have. I think it's healthier for a person to be positive and make the best of what they've got, not because jesus or whoever the fuck else said so, but because I was a very negative person for a long ass time and it did me no good.

So someone who doesn't share your opinion is either wrong or immature?

I guess that's a bad word choice on my part, but what I mean is, in my opinion, deviance just for the sake of standing out, is pretty immature. I don't know everything about tr00 black metal, but what I've heard seems to be more of the same bullshit deviance from the norm as everywhere else, just more extreme. I could be wrong, maybe there are some valid points hidden somewhere in the "music," but everyone that's a part of the culture that I've come in contact with takes themselves way too goddamned seriously, Ba'al and Christcrusher being perfect examples.

 

[IanDork107]

Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
There is no deviance from the norm in mallcore, Ian. Mallcore embraces the values of the dominant society. It just does so in an exceptionally self-absorbed, whiny fashion.

I completely agree, but I think any mallcore kid would try and have you believe that they're different than everyone else. They seem to think strongly that they're different from the norm, when they're just a bunch of clones. Honestly, I was probably like that a while back, but I think where you and I differ is in the fact that you want very badly to deviate, where I accepted and embraced the fact that, while I have some unique characteristics, I'm not totally different from everyone else, and I don't need to go out of the way to prove that I am different for whatever reason.

 

[IanDork107]

What are some bands that do that for you? I've never found any in (what I imagine to be) that genre that do much for me, and it may be worth checking out at least.

 

[YaYo]

Originally posted by Thunderbolt of Ba'al
I emphasize content and ideology over aesthetics (sound) because the former dictate the latter. The reality is that bands expressing similar ideaologies are probably going to have fairly similar sounds.

I disagree, many many musicians write lyrics that fit in with their music. It depends on what music is to you.

I disagree with a lot of your ideas, and so its hard for me to argue, i dont know where to begin, and in such situations its easy for me to get off track and argue things that arent really useful. Ill try and proceed.

Hmmm... What you get from black metal, and what you want/expect from music is fine, but then you go and somehow form this into an objective statement and seem to suggest that its the ONLY thing that music should do. This is what i disagree with. I disagree with this attitude that if it has ANY similarities to black metal then it has to be of the same idealogy and the same everything else (within the boundaries of the already defined genre).

The idealogy of black metal is interesting by what you say, and does hold some value, however there are many many other uses for music, many different ideas about what it is. You seem to disregard other forms of music purely because they dont provide what you want from music.

So emperor and immortal dont fit exactly in with your (yes YOUR) definition of black metal? How does that matter? How does that make them traitors? Could it be that youre so locked in your ideas of black metal that you see only the negative differences, not what other music is doing that black metal isnt.

 

[Elysian Blaze]

Yanno, Ba'al, I have to thank you. Thanks to you, I went and downloaded a few songs from Beherit's "Drawing Down the Moon" album. Now, I'd heard the name "Beherit" tossed around before, but until I saw the high praise you gave it, I hadn't checked into them. Boy, am I glad I did. I'm really liking what I'm hearing, and I'm going to try an' find more. I keep looking for Necromantia and/or Varathron mp3s, but I can't find any.